What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[jarmo]

But I dont think questioning certain things (strategies , marketing etc. ) makes you negative.

But when you got the answer and still go on about it, one can't but help to wonder why?



/jarmo

Whats the answer? Maybe I missed it?

Our focus was in getting the record deal done while finishing the album, which hit many an unexpected bump or sinkhole in the road right up until the actual release. We never intended a huge public rollout, especially without resolving certain issues, and no one ever suggested us doing so, though Interscope's communications with Best Buy in these areas may not have been as clear as anyone would have preferred.

Our approach, for better or worse, has always been to work the record over the course of the following tour cycles, with attempts to forge new or better and hopefully redefined relationships with the different forms of media that may be interested along the way. In regard to our promotion, it was based around certain agreements with Universal, Interscope, our management and legal [teams] that unfortunately never happened. I won't get into specifics but am beginning to address some of those issues in my own way as opposed to "working together," and we'll see how that plays out.

/jarmo

[GypsySoul]

Not to turn this into a "versus" thing but .... Bruce Springsteen's "Working On A Dream" had all that promotion shit (interviews/video/tour/etc) ... up to and including playing the fuckin SuperBowl!!! ... and it still didn't have the first week sales that Chinese Democracy had!!!

Maybe somebody should have told Bruce to "shut up and sing" and his album would have been a success.  

[peter7411226]

But I dont think questioning certain things (strategies , marketing etc. ) makes you negative.

But when you got the answer and still go on about it, one can't but help to wonder why?



/jarmo

Whats the answer? Maybe I missed it?

Our focus was in getting the record deal done while finishing the album, which hit many an unexpected bump or sinkhole in the road right up until the actual release. We never intended a huge public rollout, especially without resolving certain issues, and no one ever suggested us doing so, though Interscope's communications with Best Buy in these areas may not have been as clear as anyone would have preferred.

Our approach, for better or worse, has always been to work the record over the course of the following tour cycles, with attempts to forge new or better and hopefully redefined relationships with the different forms of media that may be interested along the way. In regard to our promotion, it was based around certain agreements with Universal, Interscope, our management and legal [teams] that unfortunately never happened. I won't get into specifics but am beginning to address some of those issues in my own way as opposed to "working together," and we'll see how that plays out.

/jarmo

Yeah but none of this has seemed to pan out. No tour. They hired a guitar player. That was the last real update. I am a FAN of this band. I am a FAN of CD. Ive spent hard earned money over the course of 20 yrs to see and support this band. Would it really be so hard to keep us updated on the goings on. I know this is a frustrating industry ( Trust me I know), but at the end of the day your fanbase is what keeps you relevant.  Is it too much to ask to keep us informed?

[D]

Not to turn this into a "versus" thing but .... Bruce Springsteen's "Working On A Dream" had all that promotion shit (interviews/video/tour/etc) ... up to and including playing the fuckin SuperBowl!!! ... and it still didn't have the first week sales that Chinese Democracy had!!!

Maybe somebody should have told Bruce to "shut up and sing" and his album would have been a success.  

that CD blows though which is why it probably didn't sell.

[younggunner]

Of course.

There are those who stick by the band and support them through everything. And then there are those who keep whining and when somebody says something then it's "we love you!".

Five minutes later, it's back to the whining.

These are the so called "real fans" who are "concerned". The same ones who get annoyed when somebody in the band or around the band speaks out.


Many people's idea of a fan site is different from mine. Fair enough.

I never understood the obsession with negativity. I never understood why you have to go to a fan site and read about how much that band sucks.

I assumed the idea was to get away from that and "hang out" with people who do get it. Who do support the band.


Then you ave the whole "objectivity" thing. Who says fans need to be objective? It seems like this was something made up by people whose biggest fear is to be considered "uncool" on the fucking Internet.

When I read comments on an album or concert by fans of that artist, I don't care about objectivity. If I want that, there's other places to look for it.

I don't go "oh, that person's opinion isn't valid because she's a fan!". Instead I'm happy that this person is excited and enjoyed the album/show/whatever.

It just seems like some people have this automatic reflex to find something negative in everything, just so that we all think they're "objective". That way they can keep appearing cool on the Internet in front of total strangers that they might never meet in real life. Because as we all know, that is the most important thing.

so your basically calling me a fraud of a fan or frontrunner?

I have been posting since 01 and posting here since 03. from 01- about 06ish I was considered an Axl ROse nutswinger. Remember those days??

and if memory serves me right, from 2000-2006 there was no CD or news pretty much. Aside from the occasional tour there was absolutely nothing. I defended Axl and the band every step of the fukin way. So dont insinuate that I only have positive shit to say when things are going well.

And guess what. I still to this day would defend the music of Axl Rose. Anyone want to question Axl in terms of music Im first in line in defending him and his "vision". And when a tour rolls around I still will go and support him and the band. Yes, that means standing hours on a line so I can get a good spot.

The difference is that when people begin to question all non music related things in regards to Axl/GNR it is becoming harder and harder to defend him. Thats reality. So while you choose to ignore certain things(which is fine) I have realized that those complaints are valid and some hold true. Which brings us today when you insinuate that Im some sort of a frontrunnr or whiner. 

We can argue this till we are both blue in the face. There is a clear difference in opinion between us and others in regards to who and what makes  a "real" fan and who are "whiners", etc.

Its somewhere in the middle. But to think Axl has handled this whole process brilliantly or whatever is insane. And when there are threads asking these kinds of questions then this type of discussion will come up. Not because people like to whine or complain but because these assumptions or reasons have merit and are legit.

[jarmo]

Yeah, I remember.

What happened? How come you were so supportive back then with no album and now, you're the opposite?

Shouldn't it be the other way around?


The best part is that you expect everybody to change to fit your current "mood".





/jarmo

[freddiebrph]

What people fail to understand about GnR is that they don't make the same album twice. You won't hear a song on CD and say it sounds like a song from AFD, or you want hear a song on UYI and say it sounds like GNR Lies. They make new music on a new album. Bands like Green Day, ACDC, Linkin Park, Metallica, or U2 make the same music over and over, they take very little chance to differentiate their music. There's nothing wrong with that approach, but thats why GnR doesn't get the love. They make music outside of the box. Love or hate it, I think everyone should respect it. BTW IMO There Was A Time is the best written song every.  

I both agree with your points and about There Was A Time. I think the person who said people want the old GN'R may be onto something as well, but I still don't think that explains all of it. It shouldn't be possible that the most hyped and anticipated album ever from such a big name as Guns N' Roses is ignored, especially when it delivered like it did. I'm not saying it's entirely ignored in terms of sales, because they are alright, but in terms of the attention it gets it's ridicilous.

i am almost afraid to reply to this thread as I always get accused of not liking Axl or gnr, which is totally stupid.  But You hit on a problem I believe.  You are correct, a big name ,guns and roses released a new album. The problem, it was not that big band who did, it was Axl and new guys.  If we look at non bias reviews (by people not on this board) you will see that even the reviews that like the music all say the same thing.  "Axl and his hired guns" The band was too big and the members (slash, izzy, duff) were too popular just to replace.  Steven had to be, he gave them no choice. Stepping back and not looking through your old gnr or nugnr glasses, the songs are really good. TWAT is classic Axl. This I love almost has the bluezy slash sounding guitar solo. We prove the point daily on this board and every other board I read.  No matter the topic, it always goes back to old vs new gnr.  If people on this board cant move past it, how do you expect the general public?  

[jarmo]

I still don't understand why reviewers review albums, songs or concerts based on what they're not.

What's the point?


We all know the Rolling Stones won't make another Sticky Fingers anytime soon.....




/jarmo

[freddiebrph]

I still don't understand why reviewers review albums, songs or concerts based on what they're not.

What's the point?


We all know the Rolling Stones won't make another Sticky Fingers anytime soon.....




/jarmo

 

Probably expectations?  AFD was huge, how do you follow up?  With a double disc that debuts at number 1 and 2. Even if this was an album by the originals and they let this much time pass in between, and so much build up, there was no way they could have delivered a 3rd time.  It just gets frustrating to have seen Axl when he was king, knowing with just a little effort and some give and take he could be there again.  Its his life, and maybe once was enough, but when stained and nickelback are the "rock" thats on the radio today, its just sad.

[ppbebe]

non bias reviews (by people not on this board) you will see that even the reviews that like the music all say the same thing.  "Axl and his hired guns"

no. I haven't seen such a NON BIASED review yet.

[freddiebrph]

non bias reviews (by people not on this board) you will see that even the reviews that like the music all say the same thing.  "Axl and his hired guns"

no. I haven't seen such a NON BIASED review yet.

How is that biased? THEY LIKE THE MUSIC based on what they hear, not by who is playing it.  There are some who dont like the music just because its not the original band.  That is biased and stupid.  You can chose to prefer the original line up, but how can anyone not even like at least one song on CD?

[ppbebe]

Isn't it biased to call a band  'the front man and his hired guns, just because they liked its old lineup?

[freddiebrph]

Isn't it biased to call a band  'the front man and his hired guns, just because they liked its old lineup?

only if it sways their opionion.

[Voodoochild]

Isn't it biased to call a band  'the front man and his hired guns, just because they liked its old lineup?

Agreed. If they take some time to read the credits, they would see how Axl didn't create all by himself. Yes, it's a band. So, to dismerit the album because of the line-up thing is pure prejudice.

[ppbebe]

only if it sways their opionion.

It is. Or does any of them go like 'holy shits these hired guns are astonishing!!! '?


a band is a band whether you like the lineup or not.
.

[slashsbaconpit]

None of this shit matters. We?re back to fighting over who?s a real fan or not.

It?s all opinions. Jarmo has his opinion, so does everyone else. I think  you can consider youself a fan, and still understand that its commercial suicide to release an album with very little promotion, especially when it?s a comeback album

I don?t know what the hell kind of twisted agreements were arranged that made it so Axl couldn?t promote his album, but it was absolutely commercially stupid if that?s the case. I really think if he was interested in CD being a big commercial success, Axl would have toured, been interviewed, had a VH1 special created on the ?Making of Chinese Democracy?, posters, T-shirts, not being sold as an exclusive at Best Buy only. Honestly, when AC/DC did it at Walmart, it made sense. Walmart promoted the shit out of it, so everytime someone came in for groceries or perscription or a Tonka truck, they knew the AC/DC album was out and available only at Walmart. There was an AC/DC book, all of their albums, T-shirts, posters and all kinds of shit being cross-marketed.
Best Buy, depending on the location, had a display of Chinese Democracy, usually not a large one.

I honestly don?t think Axl gave a shit how it sold, and didn?t want to pimp himself out for it. And that?s fine. I got my copies, I love the music and I hope one day we?ll see more of it.

[freddiebrph]

only if it sways their opionion.

It is. Or does any of them go like 'holy shits these hired guns are astonishing!!! '?


a band is a band whether you like the lineup or not.
.

exactly

[The Catcher]

For those who either want to ignore it or haven't read it in the first place, here is some of what Axl himself has said in regards to promotion and reception, taken from two different interviews:

What were your expectations in terms of what Best Buy would do to promote the album?

Best Buy has been great. Going with Best Buy was a way to work out a deal with Universal and we were fortunate enough to work with Irving [Azoff, as manager] and deal more directly with Universal. I've asked for information regarding their role in working the record but that hasn't come yet so I'm not able to tell what Universal has or hasn't done, although Zach [Horowitz, Universal Music Group president/COO], or whoever's behind the international efforts, is doing great. It's more than appreciated and a welcome relief.

Unfortunately [going with Best Buy] didn't change us having to rely on Interscope as much as we'd hoped. The opinions expressed or "jumped" on publicly regarding promotion seem to be [about] my or our involvement with mainstream media -- talk shows, rock magazines and dot-coms -- which have generally held negative public stances toward myself or the band for years, [and they] unfortunately have not been resolved. Efforts are being made to understand the relationships and evaluate how best to proceed.

Our focus was in getting the record deal done while finishing the album, which hit many an unexpected bump or sinkhole in the road right up until the actual release. We never intended a huge public rollout, especially without resolving certain issues, and no one ever suggested us doing so, though Interscope's communications with Best Buy in these areas may not have been as clear as anyone would have preferred.

Our approach, for better or worse, has always been to work the record over the course of the following tour cycles, with attempts to forge new or better and hopefully redefined relationships with the different forms of media that may be interested along the way. In regard to our promotion, it was based around certain agreements with Universal, Interscope, our management and legal [teams] that unfortunately never happened. I won't get into specifics but am beginning to address some of those issues in my own way as opposed to "working together," and we'll see how that plays out.

What are your thoughts on how Universal has handled the album?

Unfortunately I have no information for me to believe [that] there was any real involvement or effort from Interscope. I'm not saying there wasn't. But in my opinion, without [Interscope Geffen A&M chairman] Jimmy Iovine's involvement, it doesn't matter who anyone talks to or what they say -- virtually nothing will happen from their end.

I do know [that] I've been asking for a marketing plan for over five years and still haven't got anything. We've asked for a complete breakdown of promotion expenses and efforts from all parties but unfortunately I've received very little information, if anything, so far. On another note, the draft booklet leaking and, I believe, the early shipping of preorders and the inclusion of the early draft booklet for the release was through involvement with Interscope, which was a mess. That's not to say they don't work for other artists and make things happen. I feel they work very hard for whatever it is they truly want to sell, whether it's good or ...

I can say how the band feels, and that is that to a man they hate the record company other than Universal International with a passion. And that's with me talking with them about the record company negatively hardly ever, if at all. They're not blind: They hear the talk and see the results. Our involvement with Interscope has been more than frustrating for them. It's not like anyone here wants to have any negative views, impressions or opinions. They don't go around bitching about things all the time and they don't let it get in the way of whatever they're supposed to do here, but it is what it is.

Here's how things worked until they were no longer involved-that is, until recently. Jimmy [Iovine] and whoever would come down to the studio. Things would be good for a month. Then, according to whoever was involved at the time from their side, someone above Jimmy would start putting pressure regarding us on him, Jimmy would start pressuring others at his label [and they] would begin doing the same with us. We get that it's just how business -- and perhaps especially this business -- tends to work, but after a month of this the whole thing would get ugly and extensively interfere with getting anything productive done, and near the middle of the third month we'd arrange for Jimmy to come down again. They'd go away happy and the entire process would repeat itself over and over and over.

[Former Interscope Geffen A&M president] Tom Whalley brought in Roy Thomas Baker to produce and [A&R executive] Mark Williams suggested Marco Beltrami, among others, to play strings on the album. And Jimmy had an idea for low guitar in a track and the EQ on a drum part. That's it as far as I'm aware. They were all good things, but in all sincerity, that's it. Now, what efforts were made to help keep Universal or Vivendi off us for as long as possible could very well have been extensive, and in that regard either would have been or would be most appreciated. I like Jimmy, but I've never understood him in regard to us or this album. Everything's always been, "That's easy," or "We can fix that, no problem," but unfortunately rarely added up to any kind of reality for us until [he found] Bob Ludwig for mastering.

We'd love to have their and Jimmy's support after this. But to continue at this juncture feeling as we do, keeping things so behind the scenes, unfortunately feels like the same 'ol same 'ol for all of us and, at least momentarily, a bit much to digest. Jimmy did point us in the right direction for mastering, and I believe he's sincere in his appreciation of our record but still for whatever reasons gave up pretty early in those areas.

We feel that, unfortunately, we've never been really anything all that much more other than a throw it at the wall, see if it sticks, no real ground work, something to take advantage of, last quarter, cook the books, write-off, fuck this headache, hoping to get lucky scam. And, unfortunately, for all their nice words and assurances, nothing that's happened since the week or so before the release has shown us much of anything to the contrary. So at least in regard to the U.S., for the most part I don't look at it like we have a record company -- I look at it for the most part like we have friendly but otherwise cutthroat loan sharks, and we were lucky to get what we got but feel we could have done more if they were at least, especially with some of their backgrounds, a bit more involved creatively. So in light of pirating and the mess the major labels are in, I have no sympathy for the record companies, based on our experiences in the U.S.

What's your take on the media response to the album?

It's been a mixed bag. Some has been great, others a blood bath. That said, most of the nonsense has been from the same or the latest batch of negative idiots, so it was to be expected and really doesn't mean much. did see some jump ship, and that's always funny. Watching some douche waving a flag and then being the first punk in the water's always great.

At any point did you feel or say either you or the band had to make a "masterpiece"?

Of course not -- more unaccountable nonsense. Obviously, media, elements of the public, fans and our detractors had all kinds of things going on such as high hopes, expectations, pressure, naysayers, etc. I don't think anyone would mind discovering a diamond mine and I don't think anyone in any competitive field would get very far if they didn't have dreams, aspirations or simply hope to do well. That said, these types of comments are more from our detractors, pulled out of their ass if not thin air.

Do you feel that your alleged sense of perfectionism has delayed the release of the album?

No. Guns in any lineup wasn't going to release anything all that great any sooner. And no matter how any of us tried, that didn't happen, and often while any number of us were pushing to try and do so with whatever we had going at the time. In regard to so-called perfectionism, I feel that has a lot to do with your goals or requirements with whatever one's doing or creating. Different levels may be required for different objectives. If you're making brakes for a vehicle, what's required? It's all relative, right? You try to make the best calls you can at any given moment and go from there. Generally, when this term is used by others in regard to me or how I work, it's said in a negative way or as an excuse for their shortcomings -- and again by my detractors. Whether they are open about such or not, some people love putting others in a negative light; helps them feel better about themselves. Too many ears and too many stupid comments have proven that.





Now you should have more than enough info from the man himself to not believe that Axl himself decided to stand in the way for promoting his own album.

[Axlover]

I'll tell you what I fail to understand...why everyone blames the lack of huge sales on lack of promotion. I blame it on the lack of radio play. Back in the day, there wasn't alot of promotion, ie: television etc.., the way it used to be, radio stations got the cd's from the distributer and the dj's controlled what got played on air. If a song got a lot of airplay, if people liked it they called in and requested it. The more plays a song got, the more recognition it got and the more it sold. Of course that was back in the day when MTV ruled too. I want to know why the F*ck the radio djs haven't played the singles more. I have heard songs played that suck balls, yet sell well because they get played alot. Of course a tour usually followed, but it seems radio play came first and that enticed people to attend the concerts. Just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, although I fully expect to be completely ignored and thats okay too. 

[The Catcher]

I also wanted to mention earlier the fact that back then there wasn't that much promotion going on...