Home schooling.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I went to a private school up until around the end of fourth grade.  Even that wasn't enough.  My mom would always teach me new things during vacation and I was always ahead.  A school can offer the finest education, but parents really need to be involved every step of the way.

Home schooling would completely ruin your child.  I've never met a normal person that came out of the home-school system. 

If you can't find a private school, send your boy to a public school.  He won't be socially inverted, and you guys will still offer him help and guidance when it comes to homework.  There are so many ways outside of school to help expand your child's mind and education.

Going to a public school was the best thing that could happen to me.  Private schools contain downright nasty kids.

[Axl4Prez2004]

kmorgan- the t.a.g. program where we live begins in 3rd grade.  It's basically a group of kids who meet once a week for four months after school.  

This is quite frustrating.  We are genuinely torn.  I appreciate all the feedback.  

lynn1961, in our school district, grade skipping is not allowed and early entrance into Kindergarten (when our daughter who is also advanced at three gets there) is not allowed.

More bad news today when my wife met with my son's Kindergarten teacher today...my wife was very cool about things.  She never used subjective labels such as "gifted," obviously that would seem presumptuous...she just brought in books he not only reads, but understands as well.  He is a VORACIOUS reader.  He was reading books about space last week and you could wake him up right now and he'll tell you how many moons every planet has (or doesn't have )

Before the teacher came in, my wife was in the classroom with our 5 and 3 year old.  On the chalkboard, there's a whole list of math problems like "1 + 7" up there.  (apparently they are called "math manipulatives" where there are blocks on the kids' desks, and they are expected to use the blocks to figure out the answer.  My wife asked our son if he knew the answers to those, (she knew he did) and he said yes.  (of course he knows it, he doesn't need blocks to count.  He counts by 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's...10's, etc.)

Before thinking it through thoroughly, I liked the idea of supplementing my child's education at home too Bodhi...but why waste the f'ing time at school?  He is reading at a 3rd to 4th grade level(and by the end of Kindergarten who the hell knows where he'll be, his reading skills already include multi-syllabic words and his comprehension is through the roof, his spelling is phenomenal, and his math skills are quite advanced)  So now, for me to "supplement" at home, instead of being able to pursue interests outside of school, the kid will be doing more school after school?  In between "busy work" homework that teaches him nothing?  All so I can get him even more overprepared for his next year of school??

So, send him to school to get bored out of his fucking mind?  They do not cluster advanced children in 1st grade.  All they do is make sure there is at least one bright kid in each classroom.  Get this shit, special needs children with learning disabilities have a 5 to 1 teacher to student ratio.  How about the special needs of gifted children??  Why do we as a society cater to the academically challenged and refuse to provide resources that challenge the gifted?

Drew, yes, it pisses me off and this trying to make everybody the same pisses me off.  It's as if they want the smartest kids to bring up the kids with learning problems.  Let's slow down the kids who are learning too fast so little Jimmy over there doesn't feel less smart.  It's bullshit.  Grrrr!

btw, we are not pushy parents.  we are not the kinds of parents who make their kids do flashcards or require studying or reading or any of that shit.  We have provided an environment since birth that has very little television, and many, many books read to the kids.  They enjoy reading by themselves after they get their picks to be read to.  Every night for at least 30 minutes they have piles of books on their beds that they choose and read by themselves. (no, my 3 year old isn't reading them, but, she is in her own 3 year old way)  It's great.  We play games together.  I ask questions that are thought-provoking and he does the same in return.

I am a parent that wants them to continue their self-motivated ways.  I really believe they can be stifled by shitty schools.  Unfortunately, the private options around here aren't any better.  About 40 minutes away, there's a good private school...for Elementary school, not even high school, it's $12,500/year per student.  I can't afford $25,000/year for 12 years...unfortunately, I am not wealthy...I'm not poor, but that's just out of my league.

Sorry to drone on.  I'm just angry and confused right now.  We are looking into every option possible.  

btw, D, thanks for the suggestions.  About the music lessons.  As parents, we are extremely low pressure parents.  We truly believe in letting the kids make their own decisions about what activities they'd like to pursue.  We've had as Christmas or birthday presents some low-end musical instruments, and he hasn't gravitated towards them.   

Again, sorry to drone on...I'll keep ya'll posted.  Never in a million years did I ever consider home schooling to be a realistic option.  My wife and I went to public schools (in NY state) and had great experiences.  In Delaware the taxes are low as hell...and ya know what?  Ya get what ya pay for.  Sad but true.  



  

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I don't know about your job situation or anything like that, but have you considered moving to an area with better schools?

[lynn1961]

Home schooling would completely ruin your child.  I've never met a normal person that came out of the home-school system. 

See, I don't agree with that.  Axl4Prez, I think that if you feel your son would do better by being home-schooled then go for it.  I have known kids who have been home-schooled who are great kids - not ruined.  I still say it depends on how the parent handles it.  I think that if you opted for home schooling, then you also need to ensure that your son is also involved in outside activities.  D made a good point, too, about keeping them active and involved.  There's all kinds of things, from little league to music lessons to whatever.  Keep him involved in outside activities, as well, where he's able to interact with other children. 

 

[GeorgeSteele]

In Delaware the taxes are low as hell...and ya know what?  Ya get what ya pay for.  Sad but true.  
  

Commie!

On that note, maybe you can organize the parents of other gifted children to make noise and put pressure on the school board to build a program that challenges kids like your son.  If that doesn't work, retain the services of the local mafia.  They'll arrange a sitdown with the school officials and make them an offer they can't refuse.

Seriously, that is a tough predicament, no easy solutions, but I'm definitely not a fan of home schooling.  Here in NYC, thankfully, they have advanced programs, for which we applied for our daughter.  She starts kindegarten in September.  It would be very embarassing if she doesn't get in, especially since I cheated and took the exam for her.

[nightprowler1166]

Why would you want to keep the child(ren) home with you all day?  I find it comforting to know that my 14, 16 and 18 year old are on lock-down for 7 hrs a day.  They get in way more trouble at home anyway. 

Send them to school & let them learn to live on their own.  Isn't that the goal anyway?

[kmorgan]

So, send him to school to get bored out of his fucking mind?  They do not cluster advanced children in 1st grade.  All they do is make sure there is at least one bright kid in each classroom.  Get this shit, special needs children with learning disabilities have a 5 to 1 teacher to student ratio.  How about the special needs of gifted children??  Why do we as a society cater to the academically challenged and refuse to provide resources that challenge the gifted?

Drew, yes, it pisses me off and this trying to make everybody the same pisses me off.  It's as if they want the smartest kids to bring up the kids with learning problems.  Let's slow down the kids who are learning too fast so little Jimmy over there doesn't feel less smart.  It's bullshit.  Grrrr!

  
[/quote]

I totally agree with this.  It is very hard on the teachers, too.  We do realize that we have kids stuck in classes that they do not belong in, and it's so frustrating.  In my regular courses, I have juniors in high school reading on a 2nd grade level mixed with students I'm trying to prepare for college.  How do you teach them all at once???  It's a very tough situation. 

I hate that the school there doesn't start the gifted program earlier.  It used to be that way here, too, but fortunately for our daughter, they changed the policy right before she started school.

It sounds to me like you guys would be the kind of parents that could make homeschooling work.  Maybe it would be something ya'll should consider until your child gets older.  Once he gets in highschool, he could always go and take advantage of the advanced placement and dual credit courses.

[nightprowler1166]

Are we assuming that gifted and smart have the same meaning?  By definition they don't.  And yes, send them to school to be bored out of their fucking mind.  They need to learn the social skills, even if they have to sit in a classroom with 1 or 2 "special" kids.  In the real world they will have to cope with the idiots so they may as well start learning now.  I hate to think of some child being raised in a bubble without a clue as to what the real world is like.  It's a jungle out there baby......

[Axl4Prez2004]

Since some of this has gone off on a tangent, I don't mind going off myself.
I have always detested the clumping together of kids who are actually in school to learn with the kids who have no business being in the same classroom, let alone the same school.

kmorgan, there is absolutely no reason you should be put in the situation of having to teach kids on such vastly different skill levels.  How on earth kids are passed along to high school unable to read at a 9th grade level is beyond me.  I always place the greatest amount of blame on the parents.  btw, both groups of children are being shafted in your school district.  The kids at the top aren't being challenged, and the kids who are at a 2nd grade level, belong in classes where that skill level is the focus...and it also sounds like those kids may have special education needs that need to be addressed.

nightprowler says it's a great thing to send a kid into a classroom for their entire school career to review things they learned years ago.  That sounds brilliant.    btw, your post assumes children don't learn social skills when they are out of school...seriously?  ...and yes, for what it's worth, gifted kids are special needs children by definition.  Unfortunately, schools don't always remember that fact. 

[freedom78]

First, let me state this...OF COURSE you should home school...it just shouldn't be a substitute for REGULAR school.  Education isn't a 9 to 4 activity, and kids are greedy for knowledge (maybe not always long division and whatnot, but knowledge of the world, how it works, social interaction, etc.).  The kids that do best will not only get a strong education IN the classroom but OUT of it.  You're a good enough parent to care, so I know this isn't an issue with you.  But it never hurts to reinforce the obvious.  And one of those "obvious" things is that there are things you can't teach your kids.  They can't learn everything from an adult.  They need to interact, to experience each other, to know that it sucks when someone takes your crayons so you don't take theirs, and so on.  As a parent, you're a source of authority, so there's a limit to how they'll interact with you...a limit that isn't in place with other kids. 

He doesn't voice this in class, he's not a boisterous kid.  He's nothing like his dad!  Seriously, what do they do in class?  They color and they do "worksheets."  It is very frustrating.

D, I'm sure you might think my boy's "unique" already, and he hasn't been homeschooled, unless you consider that his environment at home has fostered a love of learning.  It's crazy, when he reads it, he has learned it...and he doesn't forget it.  He loves it!

We are looking into what the area schools have to offer...it's tough though.  The district we live in has a talented and gifted program that begins in 3rd grade, BUT, it consists of meeting once a week for 4 months, after school, and it's not part of the school's curriculum.  So...it seems like there's 8 hours of socialization/reviewing shit I learned when I was 5 at home, and a couple extra projects a month after school.  ...as opposed to a curriculum that actually challenges him on a daily basis and allows him to learn at a pace that is best for him.

I never, ever, ever thought I'd be leaning toward home schooling my kids...but that's where we are right now.  My wife will be meeting with his teacher tomorrow...we're still feeling things out.

May I also add one more thing.  One big red flag about the home schooling is that the local home schooling "networks" seem to be flooded with religious extremists.  Ya know, the ones who don't want their kids taught evolution, sex ed., etc.  Grrr, right now, there just doesn't seem to be a perfect solution.  

The more feedback from you folks the better!  Thanks again.  

Worksheets are a byproduct of treating teachers like crap, to be honest.  You treat a job with little respect, pay 'em poorly, and you get poor applicants who don't try.  But it's also because most of them don't know any better.  To be honest, if your kid is intelligent he'll be just fine anyway.  It's the struggling ones who tend to get lost in our current teaching methods. 

I suggest you look for a school that uses a constructivist approach.  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NVC/is_1-2_27/ai_n15389278/?tag=content;col1

It's a highly successful way of educating children, it does away with any of the "dumb kid class/smart kid class" nonsense by asking teachers to go beyond worksheets and to help students construct their own knowledge.  For example, I can tell you how to add, and you can replicate, but you don't really understand so much as you're repeating a process...under a constructivist approach the teacher is engaging the students to explain their thought processes as they learn.  It's not "here's how you do it", so much as "tell me what you did".  This is probably a mediocre explanation, but suffice it to say that schools using this method regularly outperform other schools.  A public school teaching like this would be far better than a private school, where the teachers are often paid WORSE (believe it or not) than at public schools, they're spending time to (often) cover religious dogma, and they aren't (in many states) held to any standards. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

First, let me state this...OF COURSE you should home school...it just shouldn't be a substitute for REGULAR school.  Education isn't a 9 to 4 activity, and kids are greedy for knowledge (maybe not always long division and whatnot, but knowledge of the world, how it works, social interaction, etc.).  The kids that do best will not only get a strong education IN the classroom but OUT of it.  You're a good enough parent to care, so I know this isn't an issue with you.  But it never hurts to reinforce the obvious.  And one of those "obvious" things is that there are things you can't teach your kids.  They can't learn everything from an adult.  They need to interact, to experience each other, to know that it sucks when someone takes your crayons so you don't take theirs, and so on.  As a parent, you're a source of authority, so there's a limit to how they'll interact with you...a limit that isn't in place with other kids. 

Freedom, it's about damn time you posted!  For God's sake, you WILL be our son's social studies teacher! ...notice, no smiley emoticon there, I'm dead serious! 
Yes, yes, yes.  I totally agree....but...I'll continue...

He doesn't voice this in class, he's not a boisterous kid.  He's nothing like his dad!  Seriously, what do they do in class?  They color and they do "worksheets."  It is very frustrating.

D, I'm sure you might think my boy's "unique" already, and he hasn't been homeschooled, unless you consider that his environment at home has fostered a love of learning.  It's crazy, when he reads it, he has learned it...and he doesn't forget it.  He loves it!

We are looking into what the area schools have to offer...it's tough though.  The district we live in has a talented and gifted program that begins in 3rd grade, BUT, it consists of meeting once a week for 4 months, after school, and it's not part of the school's curriculum.  So...it seems like there's 8 hours of socialization/reviewing shit I learned when I was 5 at home, and a couple extra projects a month after school.  ...as opposed to a curriculum that actually challenges him on a daily basis and allows him to learn at a pace that is best for him.

I never, ever, ever thought I'd be leaning toward home schooling my kids...but that's where we are right now.  My wife will be meeting with his teacher tomorrow...we're still feeling things out.

May I also add one more thing.  One big red flag about the home schooling is that the local home schooling "networks" seem to be flooded with religious extremists.  Ya know, the ones who don't want their kids taught evolution, sex ed., etc.  Grrr, right now, there just doesn't seem to be a perfect solution.  

The more feedback from you folks the better!  Thanks again.  

Worksheets are a byproduct of treating teachers like crap, to be honest.  You treat a job with little respect, pay 'em poorly, and you get poor applicants who don't try.  But it's also because most of them don't know any better.  To be honest, if your kid is intelligent he'll be just fine anyway.  It's the struggling ones who tend to get lost in our current teaching methods. 

Ya see Freedom, his Kindergarten teacher's actually well put together!  My concern however, is with the notion that since he's intelligent he'll be just fine anyway.  No doubt Freedom.  My concern is that the entire year will consist of information he already knows.  It angers me to think he'll be sitting in classrooms where spelling tests take 5 minutes to complete for him and 20 minutes for many of the other children.  Dude, seriously, he has "homework" assignments like write the numbers 1 to 30.  Write your name 5 times.  Practice your "sight words."  (examples including, "out," "of," etc.)  It would be like me asking you to do 4th grade material over and over.  He's reading rock classification books...astronomy books...along with many others covering extremely broad areas all chosen by him at the library...he's fascinated by million/billion/trillion/...and yes, quadrillions.  Numbers are very interesting.  Why are "math manipulatives" needed (beads, or checkers to count up like a very young child might do on their fingers) when the child knows the answer by figuring it out on the blackboard in their head???


I suggest you look for a school that uses a constructivist approach.  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NVC/is_1-2_27/ai_n15389278/?tag=content;col1

It's a highly successful way of educating children, it does away with any of the "dumb kid class/smart kid class" nonsense by asking teachers to go beyond worksheets and to help students construct their own knowledge. 

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, or just a plain old elitist dick...who am I kidding, I'm both!    but look at what kmorgan posted earlier about having to teach (in the same classroom) one group who has a 2nd grade level of reading, with kids who are trying to prepare for college.  I don't care what teaching style is used, the teacher's being set up to fail in that situation.  My son's knowledge-base is many grade levels ahead of where he is right now...add to that, his ability to absorb information at a much more rapid pace makes it likely his advanced skills will expand the current gap in the near-future setting him up for trying times in non-challenging classes.
I do agree with you to a certain extent on the "dumb-smart" thing.  There are many kids out there with the potential to learn amazing things, but have lived in/through awful upbringings prior to school.  So, while you may have a child who appears to be "dumb," he or she could actually be brilliant, but never had the opportunity to exhibit these talents.  On the flip side, you may have a child of fairly average intelligence who happened to be raised in an incredible environment who, if placed in an advanced academic setting might be out of their league and suffer for the mistaken placement. 
All that said, I do believe the educational system has a "lowest common denominator" problem.  We teach classes with exhaustive energy placed on making sure the children on the lower side of the i.q. curves don't fall behind, while we figure the intelligent kids will be "just fine" regurgitating information they already learned years ago. 


For example, I can tell you how to add, and you can replicate, but you don't really understand so much as you're repeating a process...under a constructivist approach the teacher is engaging the students to explain their thought processes as they learn.  It's not "here's how you do it", so much as "tell me what you did".  This is probably a mediocre explanation, but suffice it to say that schools using this method regularly outperform other schools.  A public school teaching like this would be far better than a private school, where the teachers are often paid WORSE (believe it or not) than at public schools, they're spending time to (often) cover religious dogma, and they aren't (in many states) held to any standards. 

Freedom, totally agree, and yes, that's how my house would look if you saw us on a reality tv program.  We have never and will never use flip cards or note cards as teaching tools at home.  Our kids love...and I mean LOVE books.  Don't get me wrong, we have a lot of fun playing in the sprinkler, playing games, etc.  One thing is for certain, our tv is on for about 30 minutes/day at the most, and often isn't on.  The kids are in bed by 7, but storytime lasts upwards of 45 minutes, and after that, they read in bed for another hour or two independently.  (our 3 year old nods off before our 5 year old typically)
...and yes, the facts you pointed out between private and public are true.  ...and yeah, the religious dogma thing is sickening to me and my wife.  We both have no issues with religion, but to us, it's a personal matter. 
Thanks again everybody for all the great posts.

[freedom78]

^there's no "perfect" solution, unfortunately.  The key is to make public schools as good as they can be, but teachers need to be taught, too.  I want a solution that is truly an equal one.  If home schooling or private schools were perfect alternatives, they'd still be completely unavailable to many (most) families (private school, especially).   

And I really pity kmorgan having that issue, as by the point of high school it's a MUCH harder problem to fix.  As much as I believe in not separating out kids in grade school, it seems perfectly natural to do in high school, as they'll be pursuing distinct interests and so forth, not to mention that it's easier to say "geometry then algebra, then trig, then algebra II, then calc" at that level than it is to say how kids are doing in grade school.  Unfortunately, most of the "stupid" kids are likely not stupid at all...they just aren't reached by the method that others are. 

It's kind of like sex (yeah, that's right, I'm perving up the home school thread!  ya wanna fight about it?).  Different positions work for different people, and we know that, but imagine if we decided one position was GENERALLY best, and that's all we (umm...not "we" as in me and Axl4Prez) did.  Well, for some it would be wonderful, others would get by, and some would never get off!  I don't know why we treat education like that.  "What little Timmy?  You don't understand waht we just covered?  Oh, well you must be retarded, then.  Off to the dumb room with ya!"  Over the last two years I've grown quite supportive of these constructivist methods.  They DO require a lot of teachers, but if you're truly in it for the rewards (and not because it was your fall back major after law school aspirations didn't pan out) of teaching, then it's well worth it.  Seriously...look around and see if you have a school in the area that does this.  Sometimes public schools will let you ship your kid out of district for some sort of "tuition".  And your kids won't come home talking about how God put fossils in rocks, to test our faith. 

I'll totally teach your kids Social Studies, with a heavy emphasis on civic duty.  Send 'em out in a few weeks.  I'll take 'em to the track after the 500 to pick up and recycle millions of beer cans.   

[D]

Yeah I definitely agree Freedom 100 percent.

I know people that can barely read but are absolute geniuses with their hands and can build and fix and do anything.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Here's a little personal update.  Yes, we're still reading (there's so much stuff out there)...but we think we may have somewhat of a plan.  Our neighbor who happens to work in our school district, gave us a contact person to explain the situation.  From there, we can set up the formal testing through the school district.  Once that is established, we can evaluate things with the school district. 

Now, we live very close to the school district's border, and in this state their is school choice.  Apparently, the neighboring school district has a different philosophy...and yes, it tiers children (we're not certain when they start tiering), and offers a lot more A.P. courses in high school.  Our neighbor who happens to be a school psychologist in our district, explained that our district basically has 2 tiers:  general and special ed.  She qualified this by stating the general curriculum is quite rigorous...but honestly, I have my doubts.  We've got some research ahead of us...but for now, I'm comfortable knowing the option of school isn't out the window.  I am shocked my district doesn't tier to include an Honors curriculum. 


Home schooling sounded tempting...on-line professors would have included:
Social Studies:                          Mr. Freedom78 
Sports Wagering 101:              Professor D
Scandinavian Racial Purity:       Mr. Norway
Home Building & Repair:           Senor Smoking Guns
Faith:                                        Mr. Loretian
Atheism:                                   Professor TAP
Female Empowerment:             Ms. Bandita   
yes, quite an eclectic home schooling curriculum...but I think my boy's ready!   

[D]

Your son would be a 1st grade Parlay master after my class.



How does home school work anyhow?

I always thought if u taught your child, wouldn't u have to be like a master of the subject?

I am pretty damn smart in school, but I couldn't teach someone Calculus.

[freedom78]

Sports Wagering 101:              Professor D

Don't know about that.  I pick a mean exacta box.

[CheapJon]

I am pretty damn smart in school, but I couldn't teach someone Calculus.

just because someone is smart doesn't make that person a good teacher, pedagogy is so much more then knowledge

[Axl4Prez2004]

Your son would be a 1st grade Parlay master after my class.



How does home school work anyhow?

I always thought if u taught your child, wouldn't u have to be like a master of the subject?

I am pretty damn smart in school, but I couldn't teach someone Calculus.

"Where's the little guy honey?"

"Oh, he's on a field trip right now."

"Really?  It's 10:00 at night!  What the hell?"

"Professor D has the kids out at the racetrack tonight."

"Oh."  (I shake my head and start to doubt this homeschooling thing.)

(son returns home after winning a trifecta!  "Maybe this wasn't such a bad idea after all." 


In all seriousness, if you think your teachers were all masters of their respective subjects, you may have a surprise waiting for you.   That said, D, I loved Calculus.  My pre-calc. teacher oughtta be flogged for her shitty teaching, but Calculus itself rocked.   

btw, things as I pointed out in my last post, are looking better for public school.  The neighboring district seems to recognize and challenge the needs of gifted kids. 

Cheapjon makes a great point.  My pre-calc teacher back in high school was a genius...but couldn't teach her way out of a paper bag. 

[nightprowler1166]

Question - how does the high school kid who reads at a 2nd grade level get through grade 3-9 without anybody ever doing anything to rectify that fact?  How does this kid keep passing from grade to grade?   That's a sad thing but, unfortunately, does happen.  I think parents and teachers both have some responsibility here.  Thoughts?

[Albert S Miller]

Question - how does the high school kid who reads at a 2nd grade level get through grade 3-9 without anybody ever doing anything to rectify that fact?  How does this kid keep passing from grade to grade?   That's a sad thing but, unfortunately, does happen.  I think parents and teachers both have some responsibility here.  Thoughts?

If the kid is reading at a 2nd grade level in the 9th grade, would you even call the kids parents "parents"? My first clue would be they don't care  .