MPC2000, Drum Machine Used On Chinese Democracy

[erose]

I told u guys of the drum machines used on CD and u kept insisting how it was the greatest drumming ever laid down.

But you said: "Prostitute is a fuckin' drum machine for christ sake", which it obviousely is not...

Just because you use a drum machiine to create some shit on a record doesn't mean the drumming on CD isn't fuckin' awesome, which it is imo. And this isn't some drum machine you use instead of a drummer like on the illusion demos. This is a creative tool. An instrument.

Don't slam the use of this device, you know not what you're talking about. Might as well slam guitar effects, synts, pittmans sub bass etc. Hell, why didn't they go all acustic and recorded everything live directly on to vinyl?...

Guns N' Roses isn't a garage band anymore. The band can actually affort really good instruments and effects along with high end recording equipment.

[jarmo]

I told u guys of the drum machines used on CD and u kept insisting how it was the greatest drumming ever laid down.

No, you told us you didn't like the drumming. 

By the way, since you're a musician, how does the use of a drum machine make it impossible for the drumming to be great? The drum machine isn't used on every track and even those it's used on features real drumming.



/jarmo

[elmir]

Everybody uses drum machines nowadays...everybody...even the most pure of rockers use it in the initial planning stages to get the compositions right before they go into the studio to record proper...

there is nothing wrong or weird about that...some may not like the chosen sound, but that's not because the tool used was shit, its simply because a composer preferred it that way.

If Pitman used this "stiffy" drum machine, my respect for him just went up a whole lot...i always thought of him as a bit of a purist even though he dabbles in experimental synth sounds...but i never really believed it...

good news...i only wish this type of info was available in the build up to chinese...we would have had a better understanding of it, and perhaps more respect for it when it finally got launched...

[Voodoochild]

Wow, way too much shit people said here...

Get real: did you really think it was a real drum in IRS intro and the 1st verse of TWAT? But then, we have tracks full of real drums blasting out loud.

I told u guys of the drum machines used on CD and u kept insisting how it was the greatest drumming ever laid down.

OMG. I can't believe you actualy said that...

You know exactly when the drum machine is used? You know it's almost only in the intro and some seconds of each song?

By the way, since you're a musician, how does the use of a drum machine make it impossible for the drumming to be great? The drum machine isn't used on every track and even those it's used on features real drumming.

Exactly. Even if it has a drum machine in till the 1st chorus, TWAT's ending has an amazing and very real drum (I believe Josh Freese wrote it, but Brain's playing is also unbelieveble) going on.

If The World  has some little use of drum machines before the bass came in in the intro.

IRS has the machine on its intro and in Robin's 2nd solo (and also the very ending, if I remember well).

Madagascar has it all over the song, but mixed with real drums too.

[AC]

I don't think the drum machine was used in place of drums, but rather as "icing on the cake" so to speak. It adds some fresh elements to the sound of the music (IMO). In fact, the beginning of TWAT sounds amazing with the drum machine and then the acoustic drums added after.

Linkin Park use one a lot as well, but is everyone bitching about them? No they're not, only the lovely GN'R fans that have nothing better to do than be a bunch of complaining fucks.   

AA.

[GNRFAN20]

Brain might have to turn it on when he plays If The World.

[AxlsMainMan]

I'm pretty a drum machine made an appearance in NY in 2006. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S32kwl8uQXs

You can see it being used at the VMAs back in 2002 too.

[GNRFAN20]

Might be over at Pitmans side.

[*Timothy*]

All "I want to know is ... Is C3po going to be on the next album??

[GNRFAN20]

I think it adds a cool mix to the album. I know some of you think its stupid.

[GNRFAN20]

Two pictures of Brain with the MPC Drum Machine:

[Chuzeville]

What? Brain is friend with a drum machine?! 

[HBK]

Machine Classics Of HipHop, Funk, etc, etc...

70's, 80's...

Only For Work Mind MASTERS

 

HBK *

[GNRFAN20]

Their is a hip hop influence on Chinese Democracy. The Drums do sound hip hop on the songs mentioned.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Never leave home without it.

[michaelvincent]

Not to be too much of a buzzkill, but chances are that even the "real drums" you hear on CD aren't real, per se. The performances are human, but it's pretty common nowadays to trigger samples in place of the actual drums that were laid down to pro tools (I'm loath to say tape, because recording to 2" is so rare these days, and for the amount of stuff in CD it is almost certainly pro tools), hell, this has been going on for years....even Nevermind's drums are triggered IIRC. Look up Drumagog or Aptrigga and do some reading. This is mostly used to get a drum performance as clean as possible for mixing, as there is usually tons of bleed on each track of drums (cymbals into snare mics, kick drums bleeding into tom mics). A program like drumagog, smartly paired with a good noise gate will kill the bleed between each drum hit, as well as replace the actual hit with a perfectly clean, eq'd replacement sound.

Considering how amazing the drums sound on CD I would bet that they are all triggered to some degree. Hell, it isn't out of the question that a performance by Brain could have been doctored up in pro tools and been used to trigger samples played by Josh Freese. I've done it before when mixing recordings for bands where a drummer's kit isn't sounding so hot and I've pulled samples I've made of better kits to compensate.

The debate over the real vs. fake drums is sort of a moot point these days, because in a lot of instances even the real drums aren't 100% real.

[loretian]

Not to be too much of a buzzkill, but chances are that even the "real drums" you hear on CD aren't real, per se. The performances are human, but it's pretty common nowadays to trigger samples in place of the actual drums that were laid down to pro tools (I'm loath to say tape, because recording to 2" is so rare these days, and for the amount of stuff in CD it is almost certainly pro tools), hell, this has been going on for years....even Nevermind's drums are triggered IIRC. Look up Drumagog or Aptrigga and do some reading. This is mostly used to get a drum performance as clean as possible for mixing, as there is usually tons of bleed on each track of drums (cymbals into snare mics, kick drums bleeding into tom mics). A program like drumagog, smartly paired with a good noise gate will kill the bleed between each drum hit, as well as replace the actual hit with a perfectly clean, eq'd replacement sound.

Considering how amazing the drums sound on CD I would bet that they are all triggered to some degree. Hell, it isn't out of the question that a performance by Brain could have been doctored up in pro tools and been used to trigger samples played by Josh Freese. I've done it before when mixing recordings for bands where a drummer's kit isn't sounding so hot and I've pulled samples I've made of better kits to compensate.

The debate over the real vs. fake drums is sort of a moot point these days, because in a lot of instances even the real drums aren't 100% real.

I'm familiar with drumagog and have done lots of drum mixing using that (as well as the drum replacement tool with the Pro Tools Music Production kit - I can't think of the name).  However, Brain did say that they had him redo all of the drum tracks, note for note, for what Freese played.  It would make zero sense to have him play the exact same notes, and then use the samples of Freese playing, or even bother with drum "triggers" at that point, since they actually wanted the drums to be note for note the same.

[michaelvincent]

Not to be too much of a buzzkill, but chances are that even the "real drums" you hear on CD aren't real, per se. The performances are human, but it's pretty common nowadays to trigger samples in place of the actual drums that were laid down to pro tools (I'm loath to say tape, because recording to 2" is so rare these days, and for the amount of stuff in CD it is almost certainly pro tools), hell, this has been going on for years....even Nevermind's drums are triggered IIRC. Look up Drumagog or Aptrigga and do some reading. This is mostly used to get a drum performance as clean as possible for mixing, as there is usually tons of bleed on each track of drums (cymbals into snare mics, kick drums bleeding into tom mics). A program like drumagog, smartly paired with a good noise gate will kill the bleed between each drum hit, as well as replace the actual hit with a perfectly clean, eq'd replacement sound.

Considering how amazing the drums sound on CD I would bet that they are all triggered to some degree. Hell, it isn't out of the question that a performance by Brain could have been doctored up in pro tools and been used to trigger samples played by Josh Freese. I've done it before when mixing recordings for bands where a drummer's kit isn't sounding so hot and I've pulled samples I've made of better kits to compensate.

The debate over the real vs. fake drums is sort of a moot point these days, because in a lot of instances even the real drums aren't 100% real.

I'm familiar with drumagog and have done lots of drum mixing using that (as well as the drum replacement tool with the Pro Tools Music Production kit - I can't think of the name).  However, Brain did say that they had him redo all of the drum tracks, note for note, for what Freese played.  It would make zero sense to have him play the exact same notes, and then use the samples of Freese playing, or even bother with drum "triggers" at that point, since they actually wanted the drums to be note for note the same.

The line as I remember it was that they wanted Josh's parts, but with Brain's feel (whatever the hell that means). And you should try reading closer, I only presented that as a possible case to illustrate my point...that not even "real drums" are real drums anymore if you really want to split hairs. I never once stated as fact that they actually did that...but you just never know. Maybe they weren't crazy about a snare sound and rifled through the sample library and found one that someone else played and used it. You make your statement on the assumption that Brain's and Josh's kit sound exactly the same which is fundamentally impossible. It isn't a big deal, really, it's just the way things get done in professional recording studios these days. We should at least be thankful they didn't brickwall the final masters to shit like Death Magnetic.

And I'm sure they at the very least sampled his kit and triggered clean samples in the final mix. It is as ubiquitious as auto-tune these days in the world of production (which I'm sure got used here and there on CD as well...it's just everywhere in some degree or another).

I give them credit for whatever they did though because the drums sound great. Most of the time I just wonder why more people don't record drums like they did on Led Zeppelin 4, with a few mics as possible. Close mic'ing, drumagog and triggers really fucked up drums from a recording standpoint.

[loretian]

Well, I tend to agree that it's possible things weren't completely real, so there isn't much of a point in disagreeing, but what the hell..

The line as I remember it was that they wanted Josh's parts, but with Brain's feel (whatever the hell that means). And you should try reading closer, I only presented that as a possible case to illustrate my point...that not even "real drums" are real drums anymore if you really want to split hairs. I never once stated as fact that they actually did that...but you just never know.

You presented a theory.  I presented some evidence that seemed to contradict your theory.  I think I read and understood what you wrote just fine.   

Maybe they weren't crazy about a snare sound and rifled through the sample library and found one that someone else played and used it. You make your
statement on the assumption that Brain's and Josh's kit sound exactly the same which is fundamentally impossible.

I did no such thing.  My point is that they would fundamentally sound different, and if they had Brain re-record all of Freese's parts, as they would sound different than Freese's parts, why would they then use Freese samples on the trigger points of Brain's drums?  Again, I know you are only suggesting a theory, I'm just pointing out where it doesn't seem to make as much sense (unless I am, in fact, misunderstanding you).

It isn't a big deal, really, it's just the way things get done in professional recording studios these days. We should at least be thankful they didn't brickwall the final masters to shit like Death Magnetic.

I am thankful for that as well.

And I'm sure they at the very least sampled his kit and triggered clean samples in the final mix. It is as ubiquitious as auto-tune these days in the world of production (which I'm sure got used here and there on CD as well...it's just everywhere in some degree or another).

I have minimal experience in a professional recording environment, so that would not surprise me if it were completely true.  It would also not surprise me if they can gate out all the noise "bleed" without using samples at all either, with nice drum mics.

I give them credit for whatever they did though because the drums sound great. Most of the time I just wonder why more people don't record drums like they did on Led Zeppelin 4, with a few mics as possible. Close mic'ing, drumagog and triggers really fucked up drums from a recording standpoint.

I agree, the drums do sound great.  I actually curious about your last statement, since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about it. 

[michaelvincent]

I did no such thing.  My point is that they would fundamentally sound different, and if they had Brain re-record all of Freese's parts, as they would sound different than Freese's parts, why would they then use Freese samples on the trigger points of Brain's drums?  Again, I know you are only suggesting a theory, I'm just pointing out where it doesn't seem to make as much sense (unless I am, in fact, misunderstanding you).

Feel vs. tone. Brain's "feel" is fundamentally different than Freese's, as is the actual tone of his drum kit. Brain swings differently. My example/theory was that you could envision a scenario where Axl could say "you know, I love this take but I'm not as crazy about that snare sound for this song as I am about take X." So you fly in a sample from another kit to replace the snare sound. Considering it's Axl we're talking about....I could see that. Take Freese out the equation completely if it helps and pretend that they liked the sound of a particular drum on an earlier demo Brain played on. Same thing.

I have minimal experience in a professional recording environment, so that would not surprise me if it were completely true.  It would also not surprise me if they can gate out all the noise "bleed" without using samples at all either, with nice drum mics.

You are most definitely right. But while a gate will pretty accurately kill any bleed between drum hits, you'll still hear the drum and anything else bleeding into that mic when the gate pops open. Taking isolated samples and triggering them leaves you completely isolated drum sounds, which gives you substantially better options for eq and compression (for example: you can tweak the high end of a snare drum to your hearts content because it won't accentuate any incidental bleed from cymbals that may be on the track). If you want to talk completely anal retentive, Dave Grohl's drums on Songs for the Deaf by Queens of the Stone age were triggered from clean samples of his kit, and they also tracked the cymbals separately (overheads for cymbals generally pick up the entire kit). THAT is crazy.

I agree, the drums do sound great.  I actually curious about your last statement, since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about it.

Not nearly as much as I'd like to be man. But I do a lot of recording and reading about recording and learn more every time. 

I just feel as though as the technology gets better we have more options which isn't always better. The drum sounds on early Zeppelin and Beatles albums are so good, and they were made using a few mics with really warm sounding tube compressors...that's about it. They sound roomy and natural, and they feel like a human played them because every little nuance isn't edited and moved around in pro tools. Those old Beatles records are full of tiny mistakes and they are still amazing 40 years later...nowaday's producers will edit every last little micro mistake out, and I generally feel like it does wipe a little of that human factor out of music. Go listen to 'Since I've Been Loving You' by Led Zeppelin and you'll actually hear Bonham's kick drum pedal squeaking...that would never fly these days, yet that song is a classic and has endured for years and years.

I've been totally guilty myself of over editing in Cubase, but lately I've been trying to force myself to record with room mic's more when recording drums because it just sounds better to my ears. If you want you can hit me up on AIM (screen name: thrakk77) and we can talk some more about it because I will end up writing a novel here.