2009 NFL Season/Off Season discussion

[AxlsMainMan]

People act like Favre won 3 or 4 rings. He won one. He went to two. McNabb's only been to one and he lost it.

Yeah, he lost because he showed piss-poor leadership and a foolishly cavalier attitude in his time management of the clock in the 4th quarter, and it is also took him too long to drag his fat ass to the line of scrimmage.

Like T.O. said afterwards: "It wasn't my ass who got tired."

[tim_m]

Warner, 2-time MVP, hangs up jersey
ESPN.com news services

TEMPE, Ariz. -- Kurt Warner has called an end to one of the great storybook careers in NFL history.

The 38-year-old quarterback announced his retirement from the game on Friday after a dozen years in a league that at first rejected him, then revered him as he came from nowhere to lead the lowly St. Louis Rams to two Super Bowls, winning the first of them.

"Not much on the drama part of it, as most of you know," Warner said to begin a news conference at the Cardinals' training facility.

    ?

    Warner I'm excited about what lies in front of me. I'm excited about spending more time with my family, and seeing what God's going to do next.
    ? -- Kurt Warner

Warner said he'd been leaning toward retirement for the last half of this season.

"Obviously, it's been 12 unbelievable years, some of the best years of my life," a composed Warner said. "But I want everybody to know that I'm just as excited about the next 12, that I'm excited about what lies in front of me. I'm excited about spending more time with my family, and seeing what God's going to do next."

Written off as a has-been, he rose again to lead the long-suffering Arizona Cardinals to the Super Bowl a year ago.

Warner walked away with a year left on a two-year, $23 million contract, knowing he still had the skills to play at the highest level.

He had one of the greatest postseason performances ever in Arizona's 51-45 overtime wild card victory over Green Bay on Jan. 10, but sustained a brutal hit in the Cardinals' 45-14 divisional round loss at New Orleans six days later.

Warner leaves the game with a legacy that could land him in the Hall of Fame even though he didn't start his first game until he was 28.

In a comparison with the 14 quarterbacks to make the Hall of Fame in the last 25 years, Warner has a better career completion percentage, yards per pass attempt and yards per game. Only Dan Marino had more career 300-yard passing games.

The Warner file

? Born June 22, 1971
? Raised in Burlington, Iowa
? Attended Northern Iowa University
? Originally signed by the Green Bay Packers as an undrafted free agent on April 28, 1994 but was released on Aug. 17, 1994
? Played in Arena Football League with Iowa Barnstormers (1995-97)
? Signed with St. Louis Rams on Dec. 26, 1997 as a free agent
? Played for Amsterdam Admirals of NFL Europe during 1998 season
? Played six seasons with Rams (1998-2003)
? Signed with New York Giants on June 3, 2004 as an unrestricted free agent
? Signed a 1-year contract with the Arizona Cardinals on March 6, 2005
? Signed a 3-year contract with Arizona on Feb. 14, 2006
? Signed a 2-year contract with Arizona on March 4, 2009
Accomplishments

? Four-time Pro Bowl selection (1999, 2000, 2001, 2008)
? Owns Arizona Cardinals regular season records for attempts, completions, completion percentage, passer rating, TD passes and consecutive games with a TD pass
? Two-time NFL MVP (1999 and 2001)
? Super Bowl XXXIV MVP
? Second QB in NFL history to start a Super Bowl for two different teams
? Career passer rating of 93.7 ranks 3rd in NFL history behind only Steve Young (96. and Peyton Manning (94.7)
? Became the fastest player in NFL history to reach 10,000 passing yards (36th career game)
? 2008 NFL Man of the Year award winner

In 124 regular-season games, Warner completed 65.5 percent of his passes for 32,344 yards and 208 touchdowns. He and Fran Tarkenton are the only NFL quarterbacks to throw for 100 touchdowns and 14,000 yards for two teams.

Warner, who grew up in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and played collegiately at Northern Iowa, ranks among the career leaders in a variety of passing statistics.

He was also the fastest player in NFL history to 10,000 yards passing and tied Marino as fastest to reach 30,000.

He has the top three passing performances in Super Bowl history. His 1,156 yards passing in the 2008 playoffs broke the NFL record of 1,063 he set with St. Louis in 1999.

Warner's rise from obscurity seems the stuff of sports fiction.

He played three seasons in the Arena Football League and one in NFL Europe, mixed in with a sting stocking grocery shelves back in Iowa.

Warner made the Rams as a backup in 1998, then was thrust into the starting role in 1999 when Trent Green was injured.

What followed was a masterful and wholly unexpected season, when he led the Rams to a 13-3 regular-season record, then a Super Bowl triumph over Tennessee. He was named the league and Super Bowl MVP.

St. Louis was upset in the first round of the playoffs the following season, but Warner had them back in the big game in 2001, where "The Greatest Show on Turf" lost a squeaker to New England. The season earned him a second NFL MVP award.

But after an injury-plagued 2002 season, he was sacked six times and suffered a concussion in a 2003 season-opening loss to the New York Giants. He never started for St. Louis again.

He signed a free agent contract with the Giants for 2004, but was replaced by rookie Eli Manning after nine games. Warner came to the Cardinals in 2005 and was an off-and-on starter before replacing the injured Matt Leinart part way through the 2007 season.

Warner had to beat out Leinart the following spring, then led the Cardinals to the NFC West crown and playoff victories over Atlanta, Carolina and Philadelphia before the narrow loss to Pittsburgh in last year's Super Bowl, where he threw for 377 yards.

Off the field, Warner has been just as impressive.

He and his wife operate the First Things First Christian charitable foundation. Last year, he was named the NFL's Man of the Year for his off-field and onfield accomplishments.

Warner's departure leaves Leinart the presumed replacement. The former Heisman Trophy winner has started 17 games for Arizona but only one in the last two years.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4870096

Future Hall of Famer? I think so.

[tim_m]

Reversal would've put Vikes in red zone
ESPN.com news services

It was the third-quarter hit during the NFC Championship Game that injured Brett Favre, a low blow the NFL is now acknowledging should have been called a penalty, reversing a subsequent interception.

"It's the type of hit that we don't want," NFL vice president of officiating Mike Pereira said, "... because clearly we're trying to protect the knees and we need to focus on this to make sure we don't miss [them]."

NFC North blog

Seifert ESPN.com's Kevin Seifert writes about all things NFC North in his division blog.

? Blog network: NFL Nation

Appearing on the NFL Network and NFL.com this week, Pereira said the right call had not been made during the New Orleans Saints' 31-28 overtime victory Sunday.

With the score tied 21-21, Favre took a hit from Saints defensive end Bobby McCray. The quarterback's left ankle was injured during the play, and he got it treated on the sideline and remained in the game.

"Pretty much a direct shot into the back of [Favre's] legs," Pereira said of the hit.

The Vikings would have had a first down at the Saints' 19-yard line.

Instead, linebacker Jonathan Vilma's interception put the Saints at their own 31-yard line, though they failed to score on the resulting series.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4868880

[D]

Favre never missed a game

McNabb misses at least 5 a season


Favre my choke but McNabb pukes

Saying McNabb is better than Favre is just ridiculous

[Drew]

Favre never missed a game

McNabb misses at least 5 a season


Favre my choke but McNabb pukes

Saying McNabb is better than Favre is just ridiculous

Your exactly right D. Saying that Miss McNabb is better than Brett Favre is absolutely ridiculous and laughable.

[D]

Lets not forget that at age 40, Favre had a way better season than McNabb

U can shit on Favre for that INT but how did McNabb do in the game for the division against Dallas? at least Favre showed up.

[gilee7]

Give me Peyton, Brady, McNabb, Big Ben, Brees, Rivers, Rodgers and Warner all before I'll take Favre right now, even if you could make him ten years younger.

Go ahead and keep sucking Favre's dick like everyone else does. The good ol' country boy in his Wrangler's, just ridin' his tractor and throwin' INTs. The most overrated QB in the history of the game. Possibly the most overrated athlete in all of sports. He's as big of an asshole and prima donna as Terrell Owens, he's just more subtle about it. But it's there, and it always has been. Favre's just as much of a prick. He thinks he's bigger than the game, bigger than the sport. So fuck him and all the people who enjoy slobbin' on his knob.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Holy crap gilee, did you catch your sister giving Favre dome?

[D]

yeah u are either a Packer fan, Bear Fan or something... Geez with the hate.


In my lifetime of QB's and that would be from the 80's on Id rank Favre with

Dan Marino, Peyton,Brady, Elway,Montana

Id have Favre probably after those guys

Marino still the best ever in my opinion. I don't penalize guys for shitty front offices and teams
Brady 2nd.. No Jerry Rice, Salary Cap era, won SB's with nobody at WR
Peyton 3rd: Most cerebral QB ever, doesn't have the SB's Montana has but Montana had an amazing defense, as i said, no salary cap, dominating O line.. just an all time great team
Montana 4th: even though I mentioned the above, still so accurate and clutch
Elway 5th.. Like Marino, wasn't surrounded with amazing talent but was Favre without the choke gene
Favre 6th. Longevity, MVP's, SB title

[Axl4Prez2004]

D, I'm with you on P. Manning, Brady, and Montana over Favre in terms of who I'd want qb'ing my team.  I'm not as strong on Elway, but I'd throw Steve Young in there as well.  Remember, he lost some of his prime with the USFL and backing up Montana.


Here's a question I've been tossing around with folks...is Kurt Warner a HOFer?  Personally, I don't think so.  Biggest reason why?  HOFers don't disappear for 5 seasons. ('02-'06) 


One more thing...with Warner's retirement, is AZ really going to trust Leinart to take them to a Super Bowl?  Seriously??  If Boldin stays...Fitzgerald, Boldin, and Breaston would be some nice weapons for Donovan McNabb (who has a summer home in AZ).  That said, if Favre really called it quites, I would totally endorse (as a Vikes and McNabb fan) Donovan in purple and horns.  Of course, if that ever happened, you'd have to wait about a week or 2 for me to post as I will have creamed all over myself...I'd be passed out unconscious with a smile from ear to ear!   

(as much as I do love McNabb, I want Favre back for one more year.  Redemption is a beautiful thing) 

[D]

Kurt is def a HOF  remember he had that bad thumb injury that hurt his productivity

he took two different teams to the Super Bowl and im not talking any teams, we are talking historically TERRIBLE teams to the Super Bowl.

He won 2 MVPS and a SB MVP

don't forget, if not for 2 miraculous plays, he would've won 3 SB's.. he did what was needed to win 3 SB's.

[faldor]

I think Warner is a Hall of Famer too.  The only reason it's even a question is because he did get lost in the mix for a few years there.  But the way he started and finished his career is Hall of Fame worthy.  And he just may have played in the 3 greatest Super Bowls of all time.  Each one was won on the last play of the game.

[D]

saw also where he has the highest postseason QB rating of all time...thats huge.....

I think if u go strictly by numbers.. it would be close.. but Warner is so much more than just some numbers.

[Axl4Prez2004]

saw also where he has the highest postseason QB rating of all time...thats huge.....

I think if u go strictly by numbers.. it would be close.. but Warner is so much more than just some numbers.

Check this argument out though, just think about this:

Over 2002 and 2003, the Rams were 18-5 when Bulger started, and 0-7 when Warner started.  The same offense...the same team...and Marc Bulger of all people went 18-5 and Kurt Warner went 0-7.

During the 2002 and 2003 seasons, Warner started seven games. He threw four touchdown passes and was intercepted 12 times. He fumbled 14 times, losing five. Warner's QB rating was 69.8. (It was 103.4 from 1999-2001).  In '02 and '03 he had 4 td's and 17 turnovers (int's + fumbles lost). 

In 2002, Bulger started seven games, had a QB rating of 101.5, and the Rams went 6-1.  Again, an interesting comparison since they (Warner and Bulger) have the same offensive weaponry at their disposal.

Despite Warner's horrendous '02, he was named the '03 starting qb.  Warner fumbled the ball 6 times (losing 3) in the 1st game alone.  Deservingly, he was yanked and Bulger went on to qb the team in '03.  Bulger went 12-3 the rest of the way.
In '04 with the Giants, mediocre 5-4 record.
In '05 and '06 his record as a starting qb was 3-12.  He had 17tds and 14ints.
'07 wasn't too different either as he went 5-6 as a starter, again with a sub-.500 winning %.

Don't get me wrong, when Warner was on, he was dynamite!  But when he sucked, he sucked BAD!  Are Hall of Famers allowed to suck for half their careers?  It's a tough call.  Personally, he wouldn't have my vote...but I do believe he'll get in because he is a beloved figure and a great "Rudy-esque" story.

[D]

Warner=HGH also

I am convinced.

[D]

saw also where he has the highest postseason QB rating of all time...thats huge.....

I think if u go strictly by numbers.. it would be close.. but Warner is so much more than just some numbers.

Check this argument out though, just think about this:

Over 2002 and 2003, the Rams were 18-5 when Bulger started, and 0-7 when Warner started.  The same offense...the same team...and Marc Bulger of all people went 18-5 and Kurt Warner went 0-7.

During the 2002 and 2003 seasons, Warner started seven games. He threw four touchdown passes and was intercepted 12 times. He fumbled 14 times, losing five. Warner's QB rating was 69.8. (It was 103.4 from 1999-2001).  In '02 and '03 he had 4 td's and 17 turnovers (int's + fumbles lost). 

In 2002, Bulger started seven games, had a QB rating of 101.5, and the Rams went 6-1.  Again, an interesting comparison since they (Warner and Bulger) have the same offensive weaponry at their disposal.

Despite Warner's horrendous '02, he was named the '03 starting qb.  Warner fumbled the ball 6 times (losing 3) in the 1st game alone.  Deservingly, he was yanked and Bulger went on to qb the team in '03.  Bulger went 12-3 the rest of the way.
In '04 with the Giants, mediocre 5-4 record.
In '05 and '06 his record as a starting qb was 3-12.  He had 17tds and 14ints.
'07 wasn't too different either as he went 5-6 as a starter, again with a sub-.500 winning %.

Don't get me wrong, when Warner was on, he was dynamite!  But when he sucked, he sucked BAD!  Are Hall of Famers allowed to suck for half their careers?  It's a tough call.  Personally, he wouldn't have my vote...but I do believe he'll get in because he is a beloved figure and a great "Rudy-esque" story.

Def agree with u.. if u go strictly by numbers... it is somewhat borderline but I just think his story and what he did when on is enough. U take his great seasons and focus just on those and he is a HOF.. Look at Gale Sayers.. he had a very short career and got in.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Warner=HGH also

I am convinced.

D, you love giving me a hard time!   
Seriosuly, good point about Sayers.  I bet Warner wishes he just retired after '01 and came back in '08.
5 great years.  Do 2 great years, 3 very good years, 2 mediocre years, and 4 absolute shit years = HOF?  (I don't include '98 as a backup...it neither hurts nor helps his case)
Say for instance Gale Sayers hobbles out there for 4 more shitty seasons...does he still get in when half his career he plays like shit?

[faldor]

The NFL Hall of Fame isn't quite as strict as say the MLB Hall of Fame, unless you're a punter.  So I don't think Kurt will have a problem getting in.  In baseball, no way.  His off years would be enough to keep him out, but he'll get in there.  And I think he's deserving.  I mean, don't get me wrong.  He completely disappeared from my radar when he was bad.  I forgot he even ever played for the Giants and I live in CT and have many friends who are Giants fans.  But he had enough great years and accomplishments to vault him into the hall.

I think a better argument is, who is the better QB in their prime, Warner or Favre?  Obviously Brett is better historically.

[D]

I defend Favre a lot but Im taking Kurt Warner all day long

Remember his DEFENSE blew 2 Super Bowls but Warner made the game winning drives whereas Favre does throw the backbreaking picks.

Well, Look at Emmit Smith.. His last few seasons weren't that great of course he was all time rushing leader...

Thats the problem with Kurt... really no one to compare him to.. who the hell peaks twice the way he did?

one argument that could be used against Kurt getting into the HOF is the "system" deal....... he thrived with weapons but was shit without them...

one thing u must give Bret Favre... He did a lot with not much and made absolute stars out of Sidney Rice and Percy Harvin this season. Made stars out of Donald Driver and Greg Jennings etc

[faldor]

I defend Favre a lot but Im taking Kurt Warner all day long

Remember his DEFENSE blew 2 Super Bowls but Warner made the game winning drives whereas Favre does throw the backbreaking picks.

Well, Look at Emmit Smith.. His last few seasons weren't that great of course he was all time rushing leader...

Thats the problem with Kurt... really no one to compare him to.. who the hell peaks twice the way he did?

one argument that could be used against Kurt getting into the HOF is the "system" deal....... he thrived with weapons but was shit without them...

one thing u must give Bret Favre... He did a lot with not much and made absolute stars out of Sidney Rice and Percy Harvin this season. Made stars out of Donald Driver and Greg Jennings etc

I go with Warner too.  You could use the argument that Warner was surrounded by more talent than Favre.  But, what has Matt Leinart done with that talent?  Maybe he's just an awful NFL QB, or yet to come into his own, as Marc Bulger did do alright replacing Kurt in St. Louis. 

But I agree, I'd take Warner all day long especially if it's for ONE game or ONE play.  Favre is just prone to too many mistakes in key situations.  And let's not forget Warner threw his fair share of INT's, fumbled plenty, and took many sacks.  But not when it seemed to matter most, like Brett.