2009 NFL Season/Off Season discussion

[faldor]

Well, Favre pretty much had to try and make a play at that point.  If he threw it away they would've had a 56 yard FG attempt.  Not likely they make that.  What killed them was getting stuffed for no yards on the 2 running attempts on first and second down.  You've gotta get SOME amount of yardage there so you don't have a 3rd and 10.  Then the penalty just backed them up even further.  It was just self destruction at its finest.

The Saints certainly did seem to get all the close calls down the stretch.  But they're the home team and most often the home team is going to get those calls.  Not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.  All the calls were "close" calls.  I don't think you could out and out say the Vikings got hosed on any of them.  They really could've gone either way.  It just so happens, NONE of them went the Vikings way.

[tim_m]

Seems fitting that the two teams that were fighting for perfection all season long are now gonna fight each other for the championship. 

Yeah, its not something you see all that often. Rarely do the two best teams make it this far.

[faldor]

Seems fitting that the two teams that were fighting for perfection all season long are now gonna fight each other for the championship. 

It does.  A few weeks back lots of people (me included) started thinking the Chargers were the team to beat in the AFC and a whole mess of teams had a shot in the NFC (Vikings, Eagles, Cardinals, Cowboys).  But in the end, we get the top 2 seeds from each conference.  My initial thoughts are the Colts looked a lot more impressive today than the Saints so I'd have to give them the edge.  Though I do think the Vikings are a better team than the Jets, especially on offense.  So that might have been a factor.  I just tend to think if the Colts could carve up a GREAT Jets defense like they did today, I cringe to think of what they can do against the Saints.  New Orleans better get their offense in gear.

[tim_m]

Well, Favre pretty much had to try and make a play at that point.  If he threw it away they would've had a 56 yard FG attempt.  Not likely they make that.  What killed them was getting stuffed for no yards on the 2 running attempts on first and second down.  You've gotta get SOME amount of yardage there so you don't have a 3rd and 10.  Then the penalty just backed them up even further.  It was just self destruction at its finest.

The Saints certainly did seem to get all the close calls down the stretch.  But they're the home team and most often the home team is going to get those calls.  Not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.  All the calls were "close" calls.  I don't think you could out and out say the Vikings got hosed on any of them.  They really could've gone either way.  It just so happens, NONE of them went the Vikings way.

Well that's true its not likely to be made. Was it the Vikings kicker with the career long 57 yarder? I think it was so whoknows? Maybe there is a shot there. You're right they have to get some yardage there and the penalty was bad.

True, but from my point of view i think that he didn't get the first down. It looked like the ball got knocked back before he got it to the marker. It looked like that ball hit the ground too on the replays i saw. They were close but i just think they were the wrong calls.

What did you think about the pass interference call in OT? I think that one was just terrible. That was the final dagger it put the saints well in FG range.

[faldor]

The problem with the pass interference call was it looked like the right call in regular speed.  Even after a couple replays it still looked like a good call.  Then the more looks you got at it, the more and more it didn't quite look as certain.  The referees don't have the benefit of instant replay for penalties so they had to go with their initial judgement.

[tim_m]

Once Manning figured out the Jets defense he carved them up good. They did lose two guys on defense during the game though didn't they and had 2 guys in casts. Not saying thats an excuse but it sure didn't help their cause. Overall i thought the Jets played quite well. If you're a Jet fan you have to be happy about this teams future. They have a terriffic defense and its gonna get better. You have a rookie QB who grew up a lot as the season progressed and is only going to get better. They have a great running game. Remember Greene is also a rookie so he is going to improve as well. So i think the future is pretty bright for the Jets.

[faldor]

Once Manning figured out the Jets defense he carved them up good. They did lose two guys on defense during the game though didn't they and had 2 guys in casts. Not saying thats an excuse but it sure didn't help their cause. Overall i thought the Jets played quite well. If you're a Jet fan you have to be happy about this teams future. They have a terriffic defense and its gonna get better. You have a rookie QB who grew up a lot as the season progressed and is only going to get better. They have a great running game. Remember Greene is also a rookie so he is going to improve as well. So i think the future is pretty bright for the Jets.

Oh absolutely, and as a Patriot fan I have to say the tide is quickly turning in the AFC East.  The changing of the guard appears to be taking place as we speak, if it hasn't done so already. 

You never know.  Lots can change from year to year.  But the Jets certainly do seem to be on the right path with their key core players locked up for the near future.

[tim_m]

Once Manning figured out the Jets defense he carved them up good. They did lose two guys on defense during the game though didn't they and had 2 guys in casts. Not saying thats an excuse but it sure didn't help their cause. Overall i thought the Jets played quite well. If you're a Jet fan you have to be happy about this teams future. They have a terriffic defense and its gonna get better. You have a rookie QB who grew up a lot as the season progressed and is only going to get better. They have a great running game. Remember Greene is also a rookie so he is going to improve as well. So i think the future is pretty bright for the Jets.

Oh absolutely, and as a Patriot fan I have to say the tide is quickly turning in the AFC East.  The changing of the guard appears to be taking place as we speak, if it hasn't done so already. 

You never know.  Lots can change from year to year.  But the Jets certainly do seem to be on the right path with their key core players locked up for the near future.

Its great to be able to say as a Jet fan that the future is looking very bright. I was really starting to wonder if i'd get to say that in my life. I really like what Rex Ryan is bringing to this team. The whole mentality of this team has changed. They have 100% bought into this guy and what he wants to do and it seems to be working. I think a lot of their success will depend on just how quickly Sanchez continues to devlop. If he continues to mature the way he did over the course of this season watch out. Just in the last 6 to 7 weeks i saw a big difference in the kid. His big mistakes were going down, better accuracy, better and reading coverages. He played almost mistake free today. The one INT wasn't totally his fault. It was a high throw but i think if its not tipped its incomplete.

[gilee7]

It's nice to know there are some things you can always count on in this world; Brett Favre throwing a dumbass INT to lose his team another big game being one of them. I've never been a big fan of the guy. I've always thought he was incredibly overrated. This season I had to eat my words a little bit, because he played better than I've ever seen him play. But you knew at some point he'd go back to being his regular self, and it came at the most inopportune time. Bum ankle or not, he could've got a few yards on that roll-out play. At the very least, give your kicker a chance; the last thing you do is force a throw. But instead Favre threw a pass that even most middle schoolers are smart enough to know not to do. As soon as he released it, you knew it was going to be intercepted. Terrible decision, and his season ends the way it always seems to: with an INT.

Now I guess we'll have to listen to him hint back and forth about whether he's going to retire, then decide he's going to walk away, give a tearful press conference, talk shit about his teammates and coaches during the off-season, throw them under the bus like he did the Packers and Jets . . . Then when training camp is over, he'll decide he wants to come back and play.

Kind of fitting that the most overrated QB of all time plays on the same team as the most overrated player in the NFL today: Adrian Peterson. If I was Brad Childress, I'd just give all the carries to Chester Taylor. He seems to get just as many yards each time, and he doesn't fumble every other play like #28.

I saw a headline on the front page of Yahoo saying "Did Refs Cost the Vikings the Game?" I don't see how anybody can possibly make that argument or get upset with the fans. I agree that the Saints had a few questionable calls go their way in OT. But the Vikings lost that game themselves. Any team who has 5 turnovers deserves to lose. And hell, they've  could easily lost 7 or 8 in that game. The Vikings were very sloppy. Hold onto the damn ball already!

[sandman]

It's nice to know there are some things you can always count on in this world; Brett Favre throwing a dumbass INT to lose his team another big game being one of them.

typical favre! 

i was at the eagles 4th and 26 game. and GB had the ball in OT, and Fraud just threw up a duck. it was like a punt - B-Dawk stood under waiting i half expected him to call for a fair catch. just an idiotic throw. dawkins returned it pretty far which set up the game winwning FG.

everybody watching yesterday was just waiting for another INT. i had 4 or 5 texts from friends that predicted it. when taylor pulled off that long run, i figured it wouldn't happen cause they didn't really need to throw it anymore.

on that last INT, he could have picked up about 5 yards if he ran which would have put them within reasonable range for an attempt as time expired.

[freedom78]

This should be a good Super Bowl.  I remember in XLI knowing, without a doubt, that the Colts were better than the Bears and should beat them if the bounces broke even.  Hell, they even spotted the Bears 7, with that opening kickoff, and proceeded to outscore them 29-10.  This game is less of a gimme.  Fortunately, the Colts got to play two of the top three scoring defenses these last two weeks, so the offense should be sharp.  And the D has looked good as well.     

Fuck you Brett Favre, please retire finally. Now i have to listen to the stupid Saints fans with their who dat garbage. Wtf is that anyway. It sounds so stupid.

not really Favre's fault IMO

Peterson closing his arms too soon, Harvin fumble and Berrian fumble crushed them.. shouldn't have came down to that last pick

minnesota should've won by 2 or 3 tds.

x1000.  ugh, I feel like I've been repeatedly kicked in the balls.        

Sorry bro...I know you were rooting for an Indy/Minn Super Bowl, as we rarely get to talk shit to each other, given too many agreements in the political threads. 

I saw a headline on the front page of Yahoo saying "Did Refs Cost the Vikings the Game?" I don't see how anybody can possibly make that argument or get upset with the fans. I agree that the Saints had a few questionable calls go their way in OT. But the Vikings lost that game themselves. Any team who has 5 turnovers deserves to lose. And hell, they've  could easily lost 7 or 8 in that game. The Vikings were very sloppy. Hold onto the damn ball already!

Agreed, 100%.  Both teams dropped the ball too much.  There were a lot of fumbles that weren't turnovers, in addition to all those that were.  Sloppy ball handling.

[Bill 213]

Ah we lost it, oh well.........very proud of the Jets and they played like hell that first half!  Greene getting hurt didn't help us especially as he's been the one doing the damage in the postseason, but no excuses!  Sanchez played an outstanding game and that TD pass to Keller while he was getting drilled was very nice.  It does look great for next year and we have a brutal schedule so that'll definitely give us a run for our money.

Favre took a beating last night, the Vikings def should have won it, but mistakes were too costly.  Also to agree with D, I think OT should be changed, keep the field goals though, just don't make it be sudden death.  Maybe give a 10 minute OT and let them play the whole 10. 

My final pick........now I'm 7 for 10 officially.

New Orleans over Indy (Initially I had the Colts winning it, but I'm going with a feeling that it is just the Saints time to do it. I could go either way on this though)

[GeorgeSteele]

Too bad for the J E T S, but they were just outclassed by a Hall of Famer.  Many were saying the game was over after that touchdown just before the half, as that drive showed that Peyton had figured Ryan's defense out.  But I figured it was better that that happened just before the half, rather than after because they could then use halftime to make their adjustments.  Guess they didn't -- or if they did, it didn't matter. 

That was a tough loss for the Vikings, some bad breaks, but credit to the Saints where due - they dominated special teams and they played aggressive defense to force all those turnovers.  Their defense emphasizes ball-hawking over proper tackling technique; sometimes that burns you, sometimes it pays off and wins games.  Also, the Saints offense may not have had the yardage production, but they were 4-for-4 in the red zone.  Had Minny held them to a field goal just once, they win the game.

[pilferk]

Well, Favre pretty much had to try and make a play at that point.  If he threw it away they would've had a 56 yard FG attempt.  Not likely they make that.

Favre had 10 to 15 yards of daylight in front of him (and a sideline to use) AND an open back on his side of the field.  Both were better options than the one he chose.  In a season that FINALLY saw Favre become a bit more conservative, and thus a whole lot better/more dependable, he monumentally regressed on his last play of the season and DEFINITELY cost the Vikings a chance at the win.  I mean....54 yarder (which was the worst case scenario...he was at LEAST at the line of scrimmage) or not, it's a chance.  Instead they got nothing.

Rule #1 of QB'ing (and it's one the gunslinger has yet to consistently learn): NEVER THROW ACROSS YOUR BODY TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE FIELD!

Favre continues to think the rule doesn't apply to him...and he gets burned almost every time.  It's the thing he avoided doing almost all season long.  Then, the minute they get into a tight spot, the gunslinger reappears, and he blows another big game.  He did the same thing against the Giants 2 years back in the NFC championship game.  

Favre makes Minnesota better...I agree with that 100%.  But Minnesota (and their staff) made Favre better too , statistically.  He was more consistent, threw FAR below his career avg in int's, and had one of the, if not the, best all around seasons of his career.

Then he went and did exactly the opposite of what they'd (he'd) worked so hard to establish early in the season.

It KILLS me when a team completely dominates another team in ever statistical category except the score.  The Vikings BEAT the Saints in every way that matters except 2 (and they're the 2 biggies): Turnovers and final score.  The fact they were -4 turnovers to the Saints and were TIED at the end of regulation tells the story of just how thoroughly they dominated that game.  

But the kept dropping stuff on the carpet (6 FUMBLES?? SIX??!!) or throwing it away (2 INT's by Favre, one HUGE one...in a season he only threw, what...6 total?).   Awful.....

[freedom78]

Ah we lost it, oh well.........very proud of the Jets and they played like hell that first half!  Greene getting hurt didn't help us especially as he's been the one doing the damage in the postseason, but no excuses!  Sanchez played an outstanding game and that TD pass to Keller while he was getting drilled was very nice.  It does look great for next year and we have a brutal schedule so that'll definitely give us a run for our money.

Favre took a beating last night, the Vikings def should have won it, but mistakes were too costly.  Also to agree with D, I think OT should be changed, keep the field goals though, just don't make it be sudden death.  Maybe give a 10 minute OT and let them play the whole 10. 

My final pick........now I'm 7 for 10 officially.

New Orleans over Indy (Initially I had the Colts winning it, but I'm going with a feeling that it is just the Saints time to do it. I could go either way on this though)

I was impressed with Sanchez.  He made some very good throws while being chased from the pocket and/or about to be crushed (at the time, I angrily referred to these passes as "lucky" but that's neither here nor there).  He seems to do well outside of the pocket and he has a good sense of timing.  Numerous plays he got a pass off just before being sacked, or made a good move to avoid the rush.  As he gains confidence, he'll get even better, meaning that that running attack will have a greater chance to make big plays.  Assuming his rookie season isn't his best, I'd expect the Jets to be contenders for a while.  In the next few years, he could very well be to the Jets what Roethlisberger has been to Pittsburgh.  And if the Pats continue to fade, they should win that division many times this decade.

Too bad for the J E T S, but they were just outclassed by a Hall of Famer.  Many were saying the game was over after that touchdown just before the half, as that drive showed that Peyton had figured Ryan's defense out.  But I figured it was better that that happened just before the half, rather than after because they could then use halftime to make their adjustments.  Guess they didn't -- or if they did, it didn't matter. 

I've seen the Colts do that so many times...they get down ten or so and you just know they'll put up some last second numbers before the half and dominate the second half.  It's uncanny. 

[pilferk]

That was a tough loss for the Vikings, some bad breaks, but credit to the Saints where due - they dominated special teams and they played aggressive defense to force all those turnovers.  Their defense emphasizes ball-hawking over proper tackling technique; sometimes that burns you, sometimes it pays off and wins games.  Also, the Saints offense may not have had the yardage production, but they were 4-for-4 in the red zone.  Had Minny held them to a field goal just once, they win the game.

Look, I'm all for "credit where it's due", but.....the Saints defense had little to do with a good chunk of those turnovers.  AP dropping a ball at the handoff because he can't form a proper breadbasket has zero to do with the Saints D.  AP not being able to hold on to a ball when he's lightly hit from an area he had full visibility has little to do with the Saints D.  Favre breaking cardinal QB rule #1 in the final seconds of a winnable game hasn't a thing to do with the Saints D.

Most of those turnovers were the result of sloppy, poor play by the Vikings.  SIX FUMBLES??!!  That wasn't the Saint's D (for most of them)...that was the Vikings simply not holding/protecting the ball.  Someone must've buttered their gloves before the game, or spiked their Gatorade...SOMETHING.  Or at least that's what I'd tell anyone who would listen, if I were them.  It was an embarassing display, quite frankly.

[freedom78]

The problem with the pass interference call was it looked like the right call in regular speed.  Even after a couple replays it still looked like a good call.  Then the more looks you got at it, the more and more it didn't quite look as certain.  The referees don't have the benefit of instant replay for penalties so they had to go with their initial judgement.

The more I watch the NFL, the more I hate the review system.  I think college has the right of it, though perhaps too much of a hair trigger in using it. 

[GeorgeSteele]

That was a tough loss for the Vikings, some bad breaks, but credit to the Saints where due - they dominated special teams and they played aggressive defense to force all those turnovers.  Their defense emphasizes ball-hawking over proper tackling technique; sometimes that burns you, sometimes it pays off and wins games.  Also, the Saints offense may not have had the yardage production, but they were 4-for-4 in the red zone.  Had Minny held them to a field goal just once, they win the game.

Look, I'm all for "credit where it's due", but.....the Saints defense had little to do with a good chunk of those turnovers.  AP dropping a ball at the handoff because he can't form a proper breadbasket has zero to do with the Saints D.  AP not being able to hold on to a ball when he's lightly hit from an area he had full visibility has little to do with the Saints D.  Favre breaking cardinal QB rule #1 in the final seconds of a winnable game hasn't a thing to do with the Saints D.

Most of those turnovers were the result of sloppy, poor play by the Vikings.  SIX FUMBLES??!!  That wasn't the Saint's D (for most of them)...that was the Vikings simply not holding/protecting the ball.  Someone must've buttered their gloves before the game, or spiked their Gatorade...SOMETHING.  Or at least that's what I'd tell anyone who would listen, if I were them.  It was an embarassing display, quite frankly.

There's no defending the muffed handoff, but the other fumbles... in most cases when a defense forces a fumble, the ball carrier is not securing the ball properly, but I think a defense still deserves credit for exploiting that and knocking the ball out.  The interception, horrible decision by Favre, but the Saints chose not to play off of the receivers in that situation and so were in a position to turn Favre's bad decision into a turnover. 

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Brett Favre!

Oh whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

He should have at least let Longwell choke on the kick rather than having that be his last pass ever.  Yes, he has slowed down considerably and was badly abused and hurting during the game, but I'm guessing he could have gotten 5 yards on a run.  It's better than nothing!

But the fumbles cost the Vikings a trip to Miami.  There are no excuses for what they did.

I will give the Saints some credit for capitalizing on the mistakes, but they didn't play well AT ALL.  The Vikings were saying, "Here you go guys, take this game.  We don't want it."  The Saints were replying with, "Nah dawg, we straight."

The reviews were highly questionable!  The lack of a flag for the hit on Favre that sent him on the trainers table made me furrow my brow.  The PI in OT was definitely one of those WTF? moments.

Oh well, it was a great season.  And 2 trips to the championship game in 3 years is darned good. 

Go Colts, I guess. 

Let's help maintain the status quo and quash the WHO DAT contingency. 

[pilferk]

There's no defending the muffed handoff, but the other fumbles... in most cases when a defense forces a fumble, the ball carrier is not securing the ball properly, but I think a defense still deserves credit for exploiting that and knocking the ball out.  The interception, horrible decision by Favre, but the Saints chose not to play off of the receivers in that situation and so were in a position to turn Favre's bad decision into a turnover. 

If they strip the ball (or the hit causes the fumble): Yes.

If the offense just flat out drops it: No.

To me, no way the defense gets credit for an "unforced error".

There were, IMHO, WAY more drops than strips/hard hits.  Of the six, I can think of two that the defense might have had a (literal) hand in.  I'll have to look back, but I don't think they actually recovered either one of them....maybe one, though.

Pretty much no matter which way the secondary played on the Vikings receivers, they would have had a chance at that ball.  It had to go THROUGH 75+% of the Saints defense to hit it's target.  The PATICULAR defender nabbed it because of the coverage they were in, yes.  That one guy stepped in front....but that's on the QB, not the defense's prowess. As the QB, it's been drilled into your head since HIGH SCHOOL that's the likely outcome because you're trying to beat 7+ guys in a "toss up".  If you're LUCKY, it's a batted ball or a deflection. So sure, the Saints had to catch it (I guess they deserve props for that piece...though that defense was only able to recover 50% of the Vikings fumbles, too)...but not much more than that.

It's like passing across the key, instead of around it, in basketball.  Yeah, maybe the center picks it off, or one of the forwards..but it's not that the defense made a great play...it's that the offense made a bad one.