A new fans take on Chinese Democracy.

[DeN]

The first couple times I heard CITR on the album I missed the Brian May demo version, but after awhile I just accepted it.  I haven't listened to the demo since and I've heard the intended version countless times and now I LOVE IT!  I think Ron does a fine job on the solo and it compliments Axl quite well.

I feel exactly the same. Ron did a really good job on the song and I love that solo.

[Principessa]

So then why did Axl play the Inland Invasion gig?

In the past Axl has never been shy in addressing/confronting his audience with certain issues.

Perhaps he did the gig to face his fans in person and let them know that he really wasn't cool with the downloading of the leaks.

Perhaps he did the gig, so that his fans wouldn't feel they were starved for music and therefore justified in downloading the leaks to 'get them by'.

Maybe it was the band's way of saying - look, the music is on the way.

If someone is so dead set against something then how can they take money and support from the people they are dead set against?

If you wish to see it as Axl taking money from his fans (which isn't the correct way to see it by any means),

those who continued to download after Axl expressed his view on the issue, certainly had no qualms about taking something

from the artist.

[Padmasana]

Catcher was my fave leak but Bumble's solos kill it for me now.

That said, you have those who become emotionally attached to how the leaks sound, which, for better or worse, usually isn't so great to contend with. And it seems that those who often do so and complain publicly, oddly and coincidentally, have a history of basically being detractors as well even if they're somehow considered part of a "fan" base.

I thought the old leak of I.R.S and the older live versions of Chinese Democracy and 'The Blues' weren't a patch on the studio versions.

Though I was really glad the 'live' feel of Street of Dreams was kept on the album...

[Dayle1066]

I dont think someone stealing the leaks from the band and posting them is right, but remember how long everyone waited for this album, we were all starved for a long time.

On a slightly different note, I did listen to the leaks because this is a whole new line-up as far as output goes. I remember some people who said they didnt want to hear the leaks but were still so convinced of how great the new material was going to be. Even when they had no idea they would defend Axl's new music which wasnt released or out in any public form. Is that just intense love for an artist, or was it to keep the hope alive.

Also would be interesting to know how everyone feels about the last 9 years now its over....

[jarmo]

I suppose but who here had their feelings hurt?

Not the ones you were talking about, that's for sure.

So then why did Axl play the Inland Invasion gig? He clearly states in the link that because of downloading motherfuckers they were asked to play the gig. He took the time and money to play the show. If someone is so dead set against something then how can they take money and support from the people they are dead set against?

Not everything is as black or white as you might like to think.

I would say most artists understand that their fans want to hear new music and are excited about it. It means people are interested in their work.


Now, it doesn't have to mean that they like their songs leaking or so called fans judging their art by listening to unfinished tracks, does it?


Assuming that the leaks were the ONLY reason why GN'R played that festival, something good came out of it. But, it doesn't mean nothing bad came out of it.

You choose to justify the listening/comparison of the leaked material by saying they played a show and have no problems with leaks.

I'm saying, just because one good thing happened doesn't mean they think it's ok. Considering all the shit that came with it.

I dont think Axl is mad at the people who did either.

Once again, it's not necessarily that simple.

Not everybody who listened to them go on about how much better they are. Not everybody who did that are comparing them to the finished album versions.

You're making a broad generalization.

And since you're not feeling bad about it, why does Axl's approval seem to be a big deal to you?

It comes down to the assholes in the media and some extreme fans who Axl is referring to.

I'm glad you pointed that out.

Every time somebody has spoken out against these "extreme fans", those people have been attacked for being against the fans.

You call an asshole an asshole and suddenly you've called every fan an asshole..... Weird.




/jarmo

[younggunner]

Now, it doesn't have to mean that they like their songs leaking or so called fans judging their art by listening to unfinished tracks, does it?


Assuming that the leaks were the ONLY reason why GN'R played that festival, something good came out of it. But, it doesn't mean nothing bad came out of it.

You choose to justify the listening/comparison of the leaked material by saying they played a show and have no problems with leaks.

I'm saying, just because one good thing happened doesn't mean they think it's ok. Considering all the shit that came with it.

Look, ultimately I agree with you about leaks. Im not suggesting that Axl is cool with the leaks, hence the Invasion concert. Im saying that yea leaks are gay, but hes not holding it against his fans like I think your implying he does. He has even mentioned in the past that hes not totally against Napster. My point about the Inland Invasion show is that Axl understands that people are going to download the leaks and be excited by it. Hence the humor at the concert. I know the concert isnt soley because of the leaks. But at the same time hes not saying oh my god my fans downloaded leaks how dare they! Fuck them.

Once again, it's not necessarily that simple.

Not everybody who listened to them go on about how much better they are. Not everybody who did that are comparing them to the finished album versions.

You're making a broad generalization.

And since you're not feeling bad about it, why does Axl's approval seem to be a big deal to you?

I'm glad you pointed that out.

Every time somebody has spoken out against these "extreme fans", those people have been attacked for being against the fans.

You call an asshole an asshole and suddenly you've called every fan an asshole..... Weird.

I just dont get why some fans cant enjoy a demo over a final version or vice versa. Like I said earlier if they dont buy the album because they have the leaks and have heard the finals, but decided not to buy the album because they prefer the leaks...then yea thats wrong. Or the same with a journalist. But other than that I dont see how its a big deal at all.


Im not seeking any approval in regards to this. Not sure what you mean by that. If Axl came out and flat out said all people who dloaded my leaks, fans or not fans, are assholes, etc I would disagree with him big time. Axl isnt always right    but thankfully in this case hes not saing that so Im not quite sure what you mean about approval in regards to his comments on this subject

As for you speaking out against these extreme fans.....When I say extreme, Im talking about people like dave2k who are fans but have taken it to such an extreme with the leaks and how they think things should be, etc. There really arent many that fall into that category. But there are some out there. And I have no problem saying this cause I have told Dave this in the past. I know hes a fan but I think Axls comments are geared toward that section of the fan base. As well as "journalists"

Your idea of an asshole and my idea of an asshole is where we differ.

[jarmo]

My point about the Inland Invasion show is that Axl understands that people are going to download the leaks and be excited by it.

Isn't that what I said?

While you were too busy saying Axl doesn't mind it.

I just dont get why some fans cant enjoy a demo over a final version or vice versa. Like I said earlier if they dont buy the album because they have the leaks and have heard the finals, but decided not to buy the album because they prefer the leaks...then yea thats wrong. Or the same with a journalist. But other than that I dont see how its a big deal at all.

I've explained my point of view and you don't seem to register it for some reason.

It's about your first impression, getting attached to it and so on. Like you never gave the album version a fair chance since you're already attached to the "original"....

Please, go look for my post. Shouldn't be too difficult to find.

As for you speaking out against these extreme fans.....When I say extreme, Im talking about people like dave2k who are fans but have taken it to such an extreme with the leaks and how they think things should be, etc. There really arent many that fall into that category. But there are some out there. And I have no problem saying this cause I have told Dave this in the past. I know hes a fan but I think Axls comments are geared toward that section of the fan base.

We have a different definitions on a lot of things. Such as "fan", "constructive criticism", "behave" and "promise".



/jarmo

[younggunner]

I've explained my point of view and you don't seem to register it for some reason.

It's about your first impression, getting attached to it and so on. Like you never gave the album version a fair chance since you're already attached to the "original"....

Please, go look for my post. Shouldn't be too difficult to find.

I dont need to go back. I know what you said. ANd Im saying its not that big of a deal.

We have a different definitions on a lot of things. Such as "fan", "constructive criticism", "behave" and "promise".

agreed. Except for behave and promise. Since Im still here I must be  keeping my promise of behaving. So we do agree on atleast what behave and promise mean

As for fan and constructive criticism...    but maybe one day who knows

[jarmo]

You promised me to behave and said I could ban you without protest if you didn't. Then later on you called me crazy. That's an insult since you're not a doctor or otherwise qualified to make that diagnosis.

I asked you what I should do about it since you broke your promise and oddly enough, you never replied.


So we do have a different opinion on what those two words mean. 




/jarmo

[younggunner]

You promised me to behave and then you called me crazy. That's an insult since you're not a doctor or otherwise qualified to make that diagnosis.

I asked you what I should do about it since you broke your promise and oddly enough, you never replied.

You insult me all the time. Who cares? You cant take a few insults? Are you really that sensitive? You cant be, really.....

That's an insult since you're not a doctor or otherwise qualified to make that diagnosis.

Are you always wound tight? Do you ever unwind? Not every "insult" should be taken literally.

[jarmo]

You insult me all the time. Who cares? You cant take a few insults? Are you really that sensitive? You cant be, really.....

I do? Did I call you a name? I don't think it's an insult when I post about the things you've done. Like begging to be let back in here and making promises of behaving. Because it's the truth. You did.
 

Now, pay close attention: You made a promise.

When it's time to live up to it, you show what your promise is really worth. Nothing.


If I took all your insults seriously, you wouldn't be here explaining.

After all, who let you back here? That's right, I did.

Better luck next time.


But hey, according to you I got no balls or class!





/jarmo

[Skunk]

The first couple times I heard CITR on the album I missed the Brian May demo version, but after awhile I just accepted it.  I haven't listened to the demo since and I've heard the intended version countless times and now I LOVE IT!  I think Ron does a fine job on the solo and it compliments Axl quite well.

I feel exactly the same. Ron did a really good job on the song and I love that solo.

I love Ron's solo and the whole feel of the finished song. In an earlier post younggunner said something about the demo having a more peaceful pace and vibe, but artistically i don't see how that's a plus. The lyrical content matches the vibe of the song much better in the finished version, both in depth and style. I think those who grew too attached to various demo or live versions might not see their attachment for what it is in that regard. The finished versions (which mind you are the ONLY versions) elevate the emotional impact by matching content and form. The same is true of Madagascar, which initially several people complained about the vocals on, but i think Axl's delivery on this song is spot on for what he's saying and for the mood of the music. Plus i think a lot of people were underwhelmed by this song because they had been listening to it for years. To me, all of that is where the harm is - in the intended artistic presentation, and therefore expression, of the artist. I write poems, and it would piss me off if someone was reading them from my notes and notebooks and not when i decide their done, edited, and ready for printing.

[MattyJam]

MattyJam, not sure if you've covered this, but how/why did you just recently become a fan of GNR?  Am I to assume you were too young to appreciate AFD, Lies, and UYI's when they came out?  What made you give them a try NOW?  Great timing by the way, just in time for CD to be released.  You could've joined this party 9 years ago and waited patiently along with all of us.  Of course you did miss out on a couple kick ass tours.  Definitely see them in person the next time they hit your area.  I can't recommend it enough.

I'm not exactly sure... I guess it was just a hunch. I always loved Slash's solos on Michael Jackson's songs (Give Into Me and D.S.) and I find myself bored and uninspired by most current bands... so I went and purchased AFD before Christmas and loved it straight away.

I'm 23, so I would've been about six or seven when UYI came out....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Just keep listening to all the albums.  They are all great for their own reasons.

Most of us have had years to listen to the previous albums before Chinese came out.  We've had a lot of time to digest the old material.

But sometimes, I'm in an AFD mood, other times a UYI 2 mood.  That's the great thing with Guns, they have albums to match whatever mood or feelings you may be consumed with at the moment.

[MattyJam]

I think so far my favourite seems to be the second USI album. For some reason I find myself in the mood for that one more often than the others. Although CD is getting some heavy rotation on my stereo also at the minute...

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I think so far my favourite seems to be the second USI album. For some reason I find myself in the mood for that one more often than the others. Although CD is getting some heavy rotation on my stereo also at the minute...

Definitely dude.  I gather you've been a fan for a few months now?

I remember when I first got into GN'R, I got my Appetite fix, but I was completely blown away by Use Your Illusion 2.  I was on a UYI 2 tangent for a few months after.

It's really exciting for me to see the growth and development of a new fan.  I was that person four years ago.

[faldor]

I think so far my favourite seems to be the second USI album. For some reason I find myself in the mood for that one more often than the others. Although CD is getting some heavy rotation on my stereo also at the minute...

Definitely dude.  I gather you've been a fan for a few months now?

I remember when I first got into GN'R, I got my Appetite fix, but I was completely blown away by Use Your Illusion 2.  I was on a UYI 2 tangent for a few months after.

It's really exciting for me to see the growth and development of a new fan.  I was that person four years ago.

I preferred UYI 1, I just loved the second side of the disc especially the last 4 songs Don't Damn Me, Bad Apples, Dead Horse, Coma.  Loved that flow.  Although UYI has my favorite song from the sessions in Breakdown.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I think so far my favourite seems to be the second USI album. For some reason I find myself in the mood for that one more often than the others. Although CD is getting some heavy rotation on my stereo also at the minute...

Definitely dude.  I gather you've been a fan for a few months now?

I remember when I first got into GN'R, I got my Appetite fix, but I was completely blown away by Use Your Illusion 2.  I was on a UYI 2 tangent for a few months after.

It's really exciting for me to see the growth and development of a new fan.  I was that person four years ago.

I preferred UYI 1, I just loved the second side of the disc especially the last 4 songs Don't Damn Me, Bad Apples, Dead Horse, Coma.  Loved that flow.  Although UYI has my favorite song from the sessions in Breakdown.

As a whole, UYI 1 "rocks" harder.  But Estranged, Yesterdays, Breakdown...those songs do more for me than anything on UYI 1.  Just my personal taste of course.  When I want to rock out to an Illusion album, UYI 1 goes in the stereo, of course.  But I prefer the smooth sounds of UYI 2.

[MattyJam]

I bought the two albums at the same time, but played 1 first and gave it a few weeks and completely loved it and then initially I was disappointed when I heard 2 because it didn't sound like the first one.

After another week or so, it had slowly become a favourite of mine. I think songs like Breakdown, Locomotive and Estranged show why Axl and Slash were such a perfect marriage together. There is so much passion in those songs and you really hear them vibing off eachother...

Even songs which I considered filler at first (like So Fine and Shotgun Blues) I've now grown to appreciate.

I still dig the first one... especially the bluesy feel to songs like Bad Obsession and Bad Apples. And Coma is undoubtedly a masterpiece. But the second one cuts a little deeper for me, for some reason. I keep trying to stop myself playing Estranged because I don't want to overplay it and ruin it for myself - but it hasn't happened yet and I listen to it almost daily...

[Kodak]

It sounds as if all the band members recorded their parts seperately - most of the tracks sound very pieced together.

Other highlights for me are Madagascar (what a powerful epic that one is) and There Was A Time.

I'm still not entirely convinced the new GN'R are a real unit in the way the old group were.

Listen to There Was A Time and focus on the part where the band members come together to sing:

"there was a time, didn't want to know at all...." (and Axl sings above them, the second time).

There is a real sense of unity there.

Also, listening to the CD is one thing - an awesome experience in its own right.

Seeing the band live is another! This is where you get that live experience of the musicians feeding off eachother!

If you get the opportunity to catch them live sometime - GO! 

I agree with you 100% Principessa.I can't rap my mind around how some people think GN'R don't sound like a "band " anymore.One thing you've got to know about a band playing a song is everything has to be in the same key.if its all in the same key everything works.I love writing poetry and playing guitar.me and my buddy have been jammin for two years ever since I taught him how to play and now we take turns playin rhythm and lead.we have four of our own songs and we cover a few. i think im more of a perfectionist than he is though lol i can't quite get em to sound right... and I'm only 16.Think about Axl's life for a minute and the fame and fortune he had.Imagine having everything and not being able to keep the woman of your dreams when you could get anything else..the man wrote some amazing music. he didnt put November Rain on appetite because it wasn't ready in his eyes I imagine. they had more money for the illusions and look at what he did with those !!

Now to get to the point. Chinese Democracy.Axl's baby ,the introduction of his dreams to society. How does it not sound like a band ,he made everything flow and fit perfectly.I couldn't point out a flaw on the album.he slaved over it.I don/t have the booklet with me but I'm pretty sure everyone but the drummers ( with the exception of Josh on CD)and Ron got a writing credit at least once on a song.although Axl let Bumble have the solos on both the songs buckets credited for which was pretty awesome.I prefer his CITR solo though . The ending of that was crafted perfectly..after hearing the leak when i was a curious new fan..i like how he chose to end it ( for those that never listened it faded out at the end of the last lines ) .

And for anyone who thinks the drums suck on Chinese Democracy... pay real close attention at the end of Sorry