Joe Torre Releases Book Ripping Steinbrenner, A-Rod

[pilferk]

That's the thing with Yankee fans, they are in constant denial when things are not going well.

That's the thing with "Yankee Haters"...they'll never give credit where it's due.

How are things not going well?

Because we didn't make the post season last  year?

Agreed....I think we've addressed that, now, since I'd say MOST of the reason was rotation and injuries.  We'll see this year.  But I hardly think you can point to A-Rod's numbers and say HE was the reason we didn't make it last year.

If by "not going well" you mean not winning WS titles...then there are LOTS of other teams where things are "not going well" either.  It's a bogus and unrealistic metric. 

The Yanks have won more games over the past 10 years than any other franchise has.  That doesn't sound, to me, like "things aren't going well".

They also sell out more games than any other franchise.  They make more revenue than any other franchise.  They are, by a whole host of metrics, one of the, if not the, most successful franchises in SPORTS.

But see...that's the difference between STATS and fan perception.....

[pilferk]

All i know is, Yanks won 4 titles without A Rod and even though their payroll is over 200 million, they haven't won with A Rod cause he can't do shit in the postseason but freeze up.

We can play the stats game all day, but THAT is the bottom line.

Please use the stairs in case of an emergency.

So then the Sox sucked last year?  I mean, they won 2 with Manny....so now they must suck, right?

Laying the blame at any one players feet is complete and utter crap.  Again, it's fan perception, rather than reality.  We can play the "rah rah" game if you want....but it's not going to get us very far.

And "Yankee Haters" rarely want to actually talk about the reality of the stats...because it typically blows their "arguments" to hell.

[pilferk]

All i know is, Yanks won 4 titles without A Rod and even though their payroll is over 200 million, they haven't won with A Rod cause he can't do shit in the postseason but freeze up.

Along with how many other teams?

Does that mean their best players are chokers, too?  And I agree...A-Rod's postseason stats have been pretty bad...but without him, they don't make it at all.


ONE team wins the WS every year.  ONE.  It's not realistic to expect that any one team can maintain a streak like the Yanks had in the late 90's.  And people fail to point out the "streak" ended BEFORE A-Rod came to NYC. 

But they continued to win games, win division titles (until the past couple of years), and make the playoffs (until last year).  THAT'S the metric for success for pretty much every other team in baseball.  

Nobody wants to apply it to the Yanks, though.....because THEN the "Yankee haters" would have to admit just how good of a run they've had.  You ask the Cubs, Rays, Dodgers, White Sox, etc...if they did what the Yanks had done since 2000-2001, would they consider themselves successful?  I think we all know what the answer would be.

I will agree:  Last year was not a success for the Yanks.  If they don't manage to turn it around THIS year (especially with all the retooling), then I'll agree there is an issue, and things aren't going well.  But a one year break from the playoffs, considering the patched together rotation and injuries they dealt with last year?  If THAT'S your "metric" that the franchise's winning ways are in the past.....fair enough.  I think that's influenced by your SUBJECTIVE view of the Yanks.  But, in reality, one season doesn't a trend make.

[pilferk]

Difference is, Manny helped his team win 2 World Series rings.  You certainly can't say the same for A-Rod.  Maybe he should start taking notes on Manny being Manny.  Listen, I hate the guy, I'm not gonna hide that.  I absolutely LOVE the fact that he hasn't won a damn thing with the Yankees.  If that ever changes I won't be able to take this stance anymore.  So I'm gonna enjoy it while it lasts.  Much like it did with Peyton Manning.  I can't slam him anymore after he actually won the big game.  I know plenty of Yankee fans who'd much rather have Scott Brosius, Mike Lowell, or even a Joe Crede playing 3B rather than that prima donna A-Rod.  Maybe you're not one of them, but for as great a player as he is, the return on investment has not been there as of yet.

You're talking about a subjective opinion, rather than an objective evaluation.

I KNOW you hate A-Rod.  You're a Sox fan.  He not only fucked you over (well, HE didn't...but the outcome was the same) when you thought you were going to land him, but he did it AGAIN by eventually signing with the Yanks.  I GET that....not to mention you have to face him, and his stats, a slew of times every year.

But you can't argue he hasn't been valuable to the Yanks.  He's had 2 MVP seasons with them.  He's GOTTEN them to the playoffs.  There are PLENTY of other great players out there, who have had GREAT careers, who haven't won a WS.  Do they all "suck", too?'

Wade Boggs...did he "suck" before he became a Yankee, and then suddenly became great afterwards?

Your subjective opinion is, IMHO, influencing the "metric" you decide to use to measure A-rod.  That's hardly fair.  You can certainly hold on to that opinion, but I can't see any reason you can actually argue it and expect anyone else to adopt it, objectively.

As for the "other" Yankee fans....I know they exist.  Doesn't make them right.  Alex isn't a home grown Yankee.  He's not....the most "fan friendly" player, either, because he does have his quirks and idiosyncracies.  I don't care.  All that matters to me is how well he does his job and if he contributes to the Yankees winning games.  So far, he certainly has done that....the stats show it.  And when it comes down to brass tacks, you can't argue the stats.  And arguing subjective opinion, especially when you're fans of other teams, is pretty much worthless.

[faldor]

I guess Yankee fans have learned to temper their expectations over the years then.  I remember a time, not too long ago, when anything less than a World Series was viewed as a failure.  After all, they have had the largest payroll since they won their last World Series and they haven't won since.  So if you want to compare the Yankees to the Cubs, Rays, Dodgers, and White Sox you can go right ahead.  NO team plays on the same financial level as the Yanks though, you can't argue that.  A-Rod is the highest paid player in baseball on a team that has 4 of the 5 highest paid players in the game.  And you're satisfied with just making the playoffs? 

I realize the Red Sox aren't exactly a low market team, but I'm not exactly satisfied with last season.  We were one win short of the World Series and I thought we had a legit shot at going back to back.  So I wasn't exactly thrilled with the outcome.

And I never said Alex Rodriguez sucked and he's the sole reason the Yankees haven't won a world series.  He's obviously among the best players in the game, if not the best.  But that doesn't change the fact that he's never sniffed the World Series in his career, and he's certainly had his fair share of chances so far.

[pilferk]

I guess Yankee fans have learned to temper their expectations over the years then.  I remember a time, not too long ago, when anything less than a World Series was viewed as a failure.  After all, they have had the largest payroll since they won their last World Series and they haven't won since.  So if you want to compare the Yankees to the Cubs, Rays, Dodgers, and White Sox you can go right ahead.  NO team plays on the same financial level as the Yanks though, you can't argue that.  A-Rod is the highest paid player in baseball on a team that has 4 of the 5 highest paid players in the game.  And you're satisfied with just making the playoffs? 

There's realism and there's fandom.

As a fan, I WANT to see my team make it to the WS every year. 

It's not realistic to expect them to.  Nobody can do that.  Nobody.  No matter what their payroll, no matter what their talent level.  It's just not a relaistic metric.  You might THINK expectations have changed, and G0d knows the New York media circus helps perpetuate that, but I don't think you'd find many Yanks fans who would realistically expect them to win 12 straight WS championships.

What IS realistic is being competitive, winning games, and making the playoffs.  Now, I'm not "comparing" the Yanks to the teams mentioned...I said "Ask them how they'd feel if you told them they were going to go on a 'Yankee-esque' run over the last 7 years".  I think every GM would be pretty much tickled.  You could ask just about ANY teams fans the same question, and you'd likely get the same answer: ecstatic.  That's because, around MLB, that's pretty much the gold standard of success.  Yet many of the "Yankee haters" (and you're right, maybe some Yankees fans) hold the boys in pinstripes up to a MUCH higher standard...and I suspect it's likely just so they can tear them down when they don't achieve it.

As a FAN, I want the Yanks to field a team that's competitive every year.  I expect, with their payroll, they'll do that and make the playoffs most, if not every, year.  They pretty much do.  They've won more games than any other team over the past 10 years. 

That's what the money buys. And it puts buts in seats, which ultimately is as much the goal as the championships (which, likewise, puts butts in seats).  As eveyone points out, you can't BUY WS championships.  You just can't.  There's too many intangibles beyond just talent. and skill.  Injuries, luck, and all the other beautiful aspects of this game go into it.  And you just can't expect it all to go your way, season in and season out.  There are too many other good teams out there, and too much changes from year to year (witness the Rays turn around last year...).  Payroll is just ONE factor in the whole schema, and it's not even the most important.  A teams payroll should have ZERO to do with any metric for how successful, ON THE FIELD, they are.  Teams that have the lowest payrolls shouldn't be considered successful (on the field) for playing .450 baseball, and teams with higher payrolls shouldn't be considered UNSUCCESSFUL if they fail to win 100 games, sweep everyone in the post-season, and win a WS.  When I look at teams....I don't think I've ever considered their payroll in terms of how good a year they had on the field.  That seems to be a standard ONLY the Yanks are held up to...even when in years past there have been OTHER teams relatively close to them in payroll (Sox, Mets....).

Do I WANT them to win it all, evey year?  Sure.  But there's a difference between WANTING them to win, and EXPECTING them to win.  No team is ever going to live up to that level of expectations.  Not in this era.....

I realize the Red Sox aren't exactly a low market team, but I'm not exactly satisfied with last season.  We were one win short of the World Series and I thought we had a legit shot at going back to back.  So I wasn't exactly thrilled with the outcome.

Not happy with the outcome?  Sure, it stings.   Again, part of being a FAN.

Do you consider the season a FAILURE because you didn't win the AL East and win the WS?  I'd say they had a pretty good run, last year....a pretty successful season.

And I never said Alex Rodriguez sucked and he's the sole reason the Yankees haven't won a world series.  He's obviously among the best players in the game, if not the best.  But that doesn't change the fact that he's never sniffed the World Series in his career, and he's certainly had his fair share of chances so far.

Ditto with a whole HOST of players out there.  Doesn't make them any worse, as players.

You hold the "no WS win" over his head not because it actually reflects all that poorly on his play, but because it's an easy "jeer" to summon up.  Cheap heat, if you will.  Which is fine, because...from a play perspective, it's pretty much all anyone "has" on him. 

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Cubs fans bring up attendance figures all the time as well. 

If you are satisfied with not making the playoffs, or losing in the ALDS and calling the season successful, BE MY GUEST!

P.S. Pummeling the Rays, Jays, and O's on a consistent basis for the last decade will pad any team's W-L ratio.

Denial denial, tsk tsk tsk.

[faldor]

I wouldn't call last season a complete failure for the Red Sox.  That's a little harsh.  But I would say they failed to achieve their ultimate goal.  They were defending World Series champs, brought back basically the same team, and stayed ahead of the Yankees pretty much all season long.  Who knew the Rays would be so good, but still they forced a game 7 against them with their ace going (Lester) vs. the Rays #3 (Garza).  I fully expected to win that game and would've taken our chances against the Phillies with a chance to repeat.  So overall, yeah they failed to do that.  But no, I wouldn't classify the season as a failure.  And I know all teams go into the season with the hopes of winning it all, but the Sox had some pretty good odds going into last year.  So you could say their season was less fulfilling than the Marlins because of the difference in expectations.

[pilferk]

Cubs fans bring up attendance figures all the time as well. 

If you are satisfied with not making the playoffs, or losing in the ALDS and calling the season successful, BE MY GUEST!

P.S. Pummeling the Rays, Jays, and O's on a consistent basis for the last decade will pad any team's W-L ratio.

Denial denial, tsk tsk tsk.

I'm NOT satisfied with missing the playoffs.  THIS season was not a success.  I believe I said that.

MAKING the playoffs makes the season a success, though.  THAT'S the metric everyone else uses.  Nobody has yet been able to explain why the Yanks deserve to be held to a higher standard...other than so "they" can feel good about themselves when tearing the Yanks down.  Typical "Yankee Hater" subjective bullshit.  Hold them to the same standard and...Geez...things look like they were going pretty damn well til last year....when 1/2 the opening day lineup and 3/5's of the rotation were injured at some point during the season.   That's not meant to be an excuse, but it should at least DELAY worry until this year.  If it happens again...I'll agree: Things won't be going well.
 
PS:  Every league has it's weak teams.  Of course, the question begs:  Are Toronto and Baltimore bad because they're "bad" (as in, their records are bad) because they get pounded by Boston and the Yanks every year.  With Toronto, I think that's the case.  They're a decent team, pretty much every year.  Baltimore....well, they're bad.

The Yanks have more wins than any team in baseball over the past 10 years...or the past 7.  Period.  End of story.  You can't deny it.  You can't wiggle past it.  It is what it is.  No other team has been as successful in the W/L column as the Yanks.  Every team plays it's share of weak and strong teams.  For every time they face Baltimore, they have to face Boston.  The only way to "poo poo" it is to bury your head in the sand and ignore it because it sticks in your craw.

As for 'denial"....I'd say a much better example of that is those denying the Yanks have been successful...MASSIVELY successful.  And if "your team" went on a similar run....you'd be shitting your pants ecstatic.  THAT'S denial, my friend.  Because the facts are the facts.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Cubs fans bring up attendance figures all the time as well. 

If you are satisfied with not making the playoffs, or losing in the ALDS and calling the season successful, BE MY GUEST!

P.S. Pummeling the Rays, Jays, and O's on a consistent basis for the last decade will pad any team's W-L ratio.

Denial denial, tsk tsk tsk.

I'm NOT satisfied with missing the playoffs.  THIS season was not a success.

MAKING the playoffs makes the season a success, though.  THAT'S the metric everyone else uses.  Nobody has yet been able to explain why the Yanks deserve to be held to a higher standard...other than so "they" can feel good about themselves when tearing the Yanks down.  Typical "Yankee Hater" subjective bullshit.

PS:  Every league has it's weak teams.  More wins than any team in baseball over the past 10 years...or the past 7.  Period.  End of story.  You can't deny it.  You can't wiggle past it.  It is what it is.  No other team has been as successful in the W/L column as the Yanks.

As for 'denial"....I'd say a much better example of that is those denying the Yanks have been successful...MASSIVELY successful.  And if "your team" went on a similar run....you'd be shitting your pants ecstatic.  THAT'S denial, my friend.  Because the facts are the facts.

Maybe if we are talking about the Texas Rangers.  Do you think Cubs fans are happy with having the best record and getting swept in the first round?  I highly doubt they would call that season successful.

Chop down that payroll and all the "Yankee Haters" will cut the boys in pinstripes some slack.  Until then, no free pass.  You will always be judged differently.

Sadly, "my team" can never go on a run like that.  I would never even dream of it.

P.S. The 2008 Lakers were a failure.

Because the facts are facts.

[AxlsMainMan]

I think its funny that a team with such an abnormally large payroll continues to flounder.

Proof that money doesn't buy success.

[pilferk]

Maybe if we are talking about the Texas Rangers.  Do you think Cubs fans are happy with having the best record and getting swept in the first round?  I highly doubt they would call that season successful.

Fans are exactly that: fanatics.  Their subjective opinion doesn't mean much when actually judging success or failure.  But, in the annuals of history, yes...I'd say the Cubs had a successful season.   They made the playoffs, right?  That's the metric for successful, right there.  Is it the pinnacle?  No, but I'd hardly count it as FAILURE, either.

Chop down that payroll and all the "Yankee Haters" will cut the boys in pinstripes some slack.  Until then, no free pass.  You will always be judged differently.

Which is bullshit.  But thanks for qualifying you opinion.  Now we know you'll always judge them unfairly and differently than everyone else.  Nobody else, in any other sport...no matter if they have the highest payroll or not...is judged that way.  Nobody.

Why should they "chop down the payroll"?  And why is everyone else so interested in what the Steinbrenners pay their employees?  It makes zero sense to use that as an excuse (and that's all it really is) for holding the Yankees up to an unreasonable metric of success.   

Payroll means shit on the field.  You want to talk payroll, we'll talk business or parity.  You'll lose on both discussions if you're arguing it's bad for either....trust me, largely for the exact things you've pointed out.

You either win games or  you don't.  You make the playoffs or you don't.  You win the WS or you don't.  How much you pay your team is irrelevant in that entire discussion...unless you're actively looking for a reason to discount or minimize the success.

Wins shouldn't count MORE if you have a lower payroll and LESS if you have a higher one.  Not when judging the outcomes on the field.....

If the Yanks WIN the WS...well, they're supposed to so it doesn't mean anything.  If they DON'T...they have the highest payroll in sports so they should have and failed.  It's a catch-22 metric created by the "Yankee Haters".  By all means, hold onto it tightly...but don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

Sadly, "my team" can never go on a run like that.  I would never even dream of it.

That's my point.  And you just made it for me:  You would never DREAM of it...as in, it's beyond your wildest dreams to go on a 12 year playoff run.  

But the Yanks doing it means "things aren't going well".

To me, it looks like jealously and subjectivity largely colors your interpretation of "success", when it comes to the Yanks.  We're playing the "rah rah" game and it's not going to get anyone very far.

P.S. The 2008 Lakers were a failure.

Because the facts are facts.

Really?  How so?  They made the playoffs, made it to the finals, and lost to the Celtics who had the best record in the NBA?

How is that "failure"?  How is that not a successful season?

Because the facts are the facts:  They won a ton of games, made the playoffs, and were the best team in their conference?

Man, if that's the metric you're going to use...then I guess EVERY team but one's season is a failure EVERY year.    I don't buy into that metric, and I dont' think you'll find many objective opinions that will.

[pilferk]

I think its funny that a team with such an abnormally large payroll continues to flounder.

Proof that money doesn't buy success.

Please define "flounder"?  Nobody's been able to demonstrate any "floundering" or any evidence (other than missing the playoffs THIS past year) that "things aren't going well", yet.  They just simply SAY it. So, can someone provide any evidence, using a reasonable metric, showing this?  Maybe then we'll have a better jumping off point for this discussion.....

Because, as has been pointed out, winning more games than anyone else in baseball over the last 10 (and even 7) years, making the playoffs 12 straight years (with this year being the exception)....none of that sounds like "floundering" to me.  T

THIS past year was not successful.  Maybe they hit a bump, maybe it's a sign that the "floundering" and "not going well" has begun.  We'll see what this year brings......if it's another unsuccessful year, I'll come right back and jump on  your bandwagon.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Well, if the Yankee fan sitting high and mighty on his white horse can label the 2008 Cubs successful, who are we to argue?  Cubs fans, keep your chins up!

The Braves made the playoffs 14 years in a row, yet they only won the WS once.  

A GREAT SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111one!!!1111

Payroll issues are not bullshit.  If you pay a guy to help you win ballgames and he doesn't, that means you just wasted your money to buy a loss.  The same thing happens in the workforce.  If you hire someone to do a job and they don't do it, they usually get fired.

You either win games or you don't?  Thanks for pointing that out to me, I had no idea.

You make the playoffs or you don't?  Gee, I had no idea.

You win the WS or you don't.    OHHH!!!!  I think I'm catching on!  Does this apply to other sports as well?

I don't think anyone is taking YOU seriously, hombre.  You would have been a great spokesman for the Bush administration.  You sir, are in denial.  You can write as many essays you want on the subject, but those essays won't help you or the Yankees.  Are you still going to defend last year's bullpen?

Teams are in it to make the playoffs, not win championships.  I'll call Sports Illustrated and give them this bit of news.

[pilferk]

Well, if the Yankee fan sitting high and mighty on his white horse can label the 2008 Cubs successful, who are we to argue?  Cubs fans, keep your chins up!

The Braves made the playoffs 14 years in a row, yet they only won the WS once.  

A GREAT SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111one!!!1111

Again: FANATICS vs OBJECTIVE EVALUATION.  Subjectively, you can call the Cubs season whatever you want.....but OBJECTIVELY?  How is it anything but successful?  As successful as you would have liked (as a fan)?  Maybe not....

As for the Braves run, it absolutely was a success.  The pinnacle?  No, but again:  You're going to say making the playoffs 14 years straight is FAILURE?  Really?

How in the hell do you justify THAT opinion?

Payroll issues are not bullshit.  If you pay a guy to help you win ballgames and he doesn't, that means you just wasted your money to buy a loss.  The same thing happens in the workforce.  If you hire someone to do a job and they don't do it, they usually get fired.

Ah, so your opinion is that you'd like to become involved in the Steinbrenners employee review process?  Call 'em up and ask em.

But what they pay their employees doesn't effect the history of wins and losses, playoff appearances, and world series wins.

They already happened.

And that's how you measure success ON THE FIELD.

You either win games or you don't?  Thanks for pointing that out to me, I had no idea.

By saying their payroll matters when judging their success on the field...it certainly seems like you don't.  Thanks for confirming it.

You make the playoffs or you don't?  Gee, I had no idea.

By saying their payroll matters when judging their success on the field...it certainly seems like you don't.  Thanks for confirming it.

You win the WS or you don't.    OHHH!!!!  I think I'm catching on!  Does this apply to other sports as well?

By saying their payroll matters when judging their success ON THE FIELD...it certainly seems like you don't.  Thanks for confirming it.

I don't think anyone is taking YOU seriously, hombre.  You would have been a great spokesman for the Bush administration.  You sir, are in denial.  You can write as many essays you want on the subject, but those essays won't help you or the Yankees.  Are you still going to defend last year's bullpen?

Again, I have stats, win/loss records, and history.  Your only piece of evidence is "They haven't won a world series lately".  How exactly is that "denial", again?  Oh, because your subjective evaluation interferes with your ability to make any sort of objective evaluation, and it's the only thing you can come up with to refute my points.  Gotcha....

And haven't we already covered that I agree that LAST season was NOT a success?  They had a myriad of issues, from a short bullpen (which got much better, later in the year), to injuries, to lack of performance (and, FYI, that didn't come as much from the guys making the $$, but from Cano and Melky).  Some of it concerning, some of it not so much.  UNTIL last year, though.......a pretty successful run.

Teams are in it to make the playoffs, not win championships.  I'll call Sports Illustrated and give them this bit of news.

As I said:  The ULTIMATE goal  of any team is to win a championship...whether they have a realistic shot to do so or not.  But only ONE team does that every year. 

To be clear: YOUR metric for success or failure is that ONLY the team that wins a championship is deemed successful, and every other team's season is a complete, abject failure?  If that's the (IMHO, UNREASONABLE) metric you want to stand by...fair enough.  That's where our (and most people's) disconnect with you will be.

I don't think it's that cut and dry.  In baseball, most people would say making the playoffs means you had a successful season.  Making your LCS is another level of success.  Making the WS is another level.  And WINNING the WS is the pinnacle. 

I have a hard time saying the Cubs, Sox, Rays, etc had seasons that were failures this past year....I don't see many other people saying so either.

[AxlsMainMan]

I think its funny that a team with such an abnormally large payroll continues to flounder.

Proof that money doesn't buy success.

Please define "flounder"?  Nobody's been able to demonstrate any "floundering" or any evidence (other than missing the playoffs THIS past year) that "things aren't going well", yet.  They just simply SAY it. So, can someone provide any evidence, using a reasonable metric, showing this?  Maybe then we'll have a better jumping off point for this discussion.....

Because, as has been pointed out, winning more games than anyone else in baseball over the last 10 (and even 7) years, making the playoffs 12 straight years (with this year being the exception)....none of that sounds like "floundering" to me.  T

THIS past year was not successful.  Maybe they hit a bump, maybe it's a sign that the "floundering" and "not going well" has begun.  We'll see what this year brings......if it's another unsuccessful year, I'll come right back and jump on  your bandwagon.

A team with the highest payroll in baseball should not be satisfied with merely making the playoffs, they should be in contention for a World Series.

If playoffs are all that matter, why does Allen Iverson want a ring?

He's in the playoffs virtually every year, shouldn't that be sufficient and meet your definition of "success?"

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Well, here's to a SUCCESSFUL YANKEES SEASON!

By your standards, of course.  

Denial.  Thank you for confirming it.

[pilferk]

I wouldn't call last season a complete failure for the Red Sox.  That's a little harsh.  But I would say they failed to achieve their ultimate goal. 

Every year, every team but ONE "fails to achieve their ultimate goal".  Because the ultimate goal...whether you have a realistic shot of achieving it or not...is to win the WS.  When you have a realistic shot, and don't accomplish it...sure, it stings a bit more than

You can't win every year.  You just can't.  And if that's your expectation, you're being unrealistic, and likely going to be frequently disappointed.

They were defending World Series champs, brought back basically the same team, and stayed ahead of the Yankees pretty much all season long.  Who knew the Rays would be so good, but still they forced a game 7 against them with their ace going (Lester) vs. the Rays #3 (Garza).  I fully expected to win that game and would've taken our chances against the Phillies with a chance to repeat.  So overall, yeah they failed to do that.  But no, I wouldn't classify the season as a failure.  And I know all teams go into the season with the hopes of winning it all, but the Sox had some pretty good odds going into last year.  So you could say their season was less fulfilling than the Marlins because of the difference in expectations.

BINGO!  Now we're getting somewhere.

LESS fulfilling?  Sure, but that's not what we're talking about here.  We're talking about success and failure.  Am I personally disappointed when the Yanks lose in the ALDS, and don't win the WS?  Sure, and I find the season "less fulfilling" than if they'd won the WS.  But then...WHO WOULDN'T?  But, like you just admitted above, I hardly consider the season a FAILURE when it happens.   8 teams do that every year.  8.  And the only constants (til this year) has been that the Yanks over the previous 12 years.  TWELVE YEARS IN A ROW.  

But "things aren't going so well"??  C'mon

The Sox also  have the same team this year, largely (assuming Varitek comes back).  Wouldn't you consider it a successful season if they made it into the playoffs, won their division series, and lost to the Yanks in 5 in the ALCS?

It would sting, you'd be disappointed at the loss...but could you really sit there and say they'd FAILED?  I don't buy that ANY fan would feel that way...at least once the sting of the loss faded and they looked back objectively.

[pilferk]

Well, here's to a SUCCESSFUL YANKEES SEASON!

By your standards, of course.  

Denial.  Thank you for confirming it.

Unable to refute my points but falling back on platitudes!  Thanks for confirming it!!

[pilferk]

A team with the highest payroll in baseball should not be satisfied with merely making the playoffs, they should be in contention for a World Series.

If playoffs are all that matter, why does Allen Iverson want a ring?

He's in the playoffs virtually every year, shouldn't that be sufficient and meet your definition of "success?"

Payroll is irrelevant.  That's a made up metric so that people can justify holding up the Yankees to a higher, unreasonable, standard simply so they can point to the Yanks and say they fail.  As I've said: It's the catch-22.  If they win..they were supposed to win so it doesn't matter.  If they don't win, they're supposed to so they failed.  It's bullshit, plain and simple.  Nobody, in any other sport, has that thrown at them....

And "Making the playoffs" IS "in contention for a World Series".  That's the point.  You're one of 8 teams in contention.

Everyone WANTS a ring. Every player (you'd think, as a competitor) wants to win every year.  Every FAN WANTS their team to win a championship  every year.  

Is it realistic to EXPECT to?  Of course not.

Would I say that Iverson has had a successful career?  Sure.

Would I say that the teams Iverson has played on, that have made the playoffs, were successful teams?  Sure.

Iverson has not achieved  HIS goal to win a championship.

Doesn't mean his career has been a failure.  Doesn't mean the teams he's played for have been failures, or their seasons have been abject failures.

Again, ONE team wins every year.  Are you all  seriously saying that you think every team that doesn't win their sports championship have had a season that was an abject failure?