2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

Just saw the AL Gold Glovers were announced today, looks pretty solid from my NL perspective.

Any thoughts from our Junior Circuit followers?

C Joe Mauer Twins
1B  Mark Teixeira Yankees
2B  Placido Polanco Tigers
3B Evan Longoria Rays
SS  Derek Jeter Yankees
OF Torii Hunter Angels
OF  Adam Jones Orioles
OF Ichiro Suzuki Mariners
P Mark Buehrle White Sox

[faldor]

Just saw the AL Gold Glovers were announced today, looks pretty solid from my NL perspective.

Any thoughts from our Junior Circuit followers?

C Joe Mauer Twins
1B  Mark Teixeira Yankees
2B  Placido Polanco Tigers
3B Evan Longoria Rays
SS  Derek Jeter Yankees
OF Torii Hunter Angels
OF  Adam Jones Orioles
OF Ichiro Suzuki Mariners
P Mark Buehrle White Sox

Looks like a pretty solid list.  Not sure about Jeter though.  Not that he's not a good fielding SS, but I'm not convinced he's the best of the bunch.  His reputation preceeds him and I'm sure helps him win in the end.

[tim_m]

Just saw the AL Gold Glovers were announced today, looks pretty solid from my NL perspective.

Any thoughts from our Junior Circuit followers?

C Joe Mauer Twins
1B  Mark Teixeira Yankees
2B  Placido Polanco Tigers
3B Evan Longoria Rays
SS  Derek Jeter Yankees
OF Torii Hunter Angels
OF  Adam Jones Orioles
OF Ichiro Suzuki Mariners
P Mark Buehrle White Sox

Looks like a pretty solid list.  Not sure about Jeter though.  Not that he's not a good fielding SS, but I'm not convinced he's the best of the bunch.  His reputation preceeds him and I'm sure helps him win in the end.

Yeah i even kinda question Jeter's he did make 8 errors this season.

[pilferk]

You forgot Gary Sheffield.

You may now connect the dots as necessary.

Kind of hard to forget Sheffield from that list when he never played for the late 90's/early 00's Indians that I was naming off.

I thought we were making a blanket list of users...missed the Indians connection.  I get it now...you're an Indians fan...I'm so sorry. 

[pilferk]

Looks like a pretty solid list.  Not sure about Jeter though.  Not that he's not a good fielding SS, but I'm not convinced he's the best of the bunch.  His reputation preceeds him and I'm sure helps him win in the end.

In years past, you're right.

This year, looking at all factors across the AL, he was a top 3 shortstop defensively.  His range dramatically improved.  The top 3 were VERY close...so maybe his rep helped there.  But it's not like it's out of the blue, either.

The other factor is that, looking at years past, everyone's fielding at SS looks to be slightly down.  It could very well be that Jeter had a good year, and pretty much everyone else had slightly off years.  They met "in the middle", so to speak.

[pilferk]

Yeah i even kinda question Jeter's he did make 8 errors this season.

Tied for fewest in the league amongst regular starters at SS, I think.

Izturis also had 8, Scutoro had 10, Aybar had 11

[Mal Brossard]

8 errors for a shortstop is low.  Not quite Omar Vizquel territory, but pretty good.  Anything under 10 errors at short should get your name brought up for consideration.  You have to make a lot of tough plays there and see a lot of balls hit your way.

However, of Jeter's four Gold Gloves, this is the only one I think he REALLY deserved.  In 2004, David Eckstein made only 6 errors to Jeter's 13, and had a .988 FP to Jeter's .981.  In 2005, it was another Angels shortstop with a far better season getting screwed out of the award in Orlando Cabrera (7 errors and .988 to Jeter's 15 and .979).  2006 was a crappy year for shortstops, as only Michael Young and Juan Uribe had fewer errors than Jeter's 15, and they had 14 each.  Fielding percentage-wise, Young, Uribe, and Jhonny "No Range Whatsoever" Peralta had better fielding percentages.

Gold Gloves largely get awarded to whoever makes flashy plays (not necessarily good, just flashy) and then keep getting it based on name recognition.  Anyone remember Rafael Palmeiro winning it in 1999, having only played 28 games in the field?  Or Omar Vizquel in 1996: He won the award the previous two seasons, made 20 errors that year (the highest single season total in his career), and still won the award.  And yet in 2002, Vizquel makes only 7 errors with a .990 FP and loses out to A-Rod and his 10 and .987.

[Loaded NightraiN]

However, of Jeter's four Gold Gloves, this is the only one I think he REALLY deserved.  In 2004, David Eckstein made only 6 errors to Jeter's 13, and had a .988 FP to Jeter's .981.  In 2005, it was another Angels shortstop with a far better season getting screwed out of the award in Orlando Cabrera (7 errors and .988 to Jeter's 15 and .979).  2006 was a crappy year for shortstops, as only Michael Young and Juan Uribe had fewer errors than Jeter's 15, and they had 14 each.  Fielding percentage-wise, Young, Uribe, and Jhonny "No Range Whatsoever" Peralta had better fielding percentages.

Gold Gloves largely get awarded to whoever makes flashy plays (not necessarily good, just flashy) and then keep getting it based on name recognition.  Anyone remember Rafael Palmeiro winning it in 1999, having only played 28 games in the field?  Or Omar Vizquel in 1996: He won the award the previous two seasons, made 20 errors that year (the highest single season total in his career), and still won the award.  And yet in 2002, Vizquel makes only 7 errors with a .990 FP and loses out to A-Rod and his 10 and .987.

You bring up very good numbers there, but I think being a flashy player should help your cause... You could have nothing but routine balls hit to you and your stats would be sky high.. But the guy who has a few lower stats who runs like crazy making daring slides, makes great play on bounces is surely more deserving...

[Mal Brossard]

That's part of the reason I like stats like Range Factor (PO+A/innings at position) more than something like fielding percentage (PO+A/TC).  RF is based on the idea that the total number of outs that a player participates in is more relevant in evaluating his defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances.

In other words, it believes errors are overrated, and it's better to have a fielder who's going to be involved in more plays and possibly make more errors than one who's going to participate in fewer plays and make fewer errors.

If RF was used to determine gold gloves, the winners would be (note that leaders in two other defensive metrics, Zone Rating and fielding percentage, are in parentheses if the RF leader, ZR leader, or FP leader are different)...

AL
c: Jason Varitek (ZR: Joe Mauer, FP: Gerald Laird)
1b: Paul Konerko (ZR: Carlos Pena, FP: Lyle Overbay)
2b: Aaron Hill (ZR: Jose Lopez, FP: Placido Polanco)
3b: Melvin Mora (ZR: Michael Young, FP: M. Mora)
ss: Cezar Izturis (ZR and FP: Derek JEter)
lf: Carl Crawford (ZR: Johnny Damon, FP: Jason Bay)
cf: Adam Jones (ZR and FP: Vernon Wells)
rf: Nelson Cruz (ZR: Michael Cuddyer, FP: J.D. Drew)
p: Mark Buehrle (ZR: Matt Garza, FP: 6-way tie, with neither Buehrle or Garza being part of it)

NL
c: Bengie Molina (ZR: Jason Kendall, FP: B. Molina)
1b: Albert Pujols (ZR: Derrick Lee, FP: Adam LaRoche)
2b: Kaz Matsui (ZR: Dan Uggla, FP: David Eckstein)
3b: Andy LaRoche (ZR and FP: Kevin Kouzmanoff)
ss: Cristian Guzman (ZR: Edgar Renteria, FP: Jimmy Rollins)
lf: Ryan Braun (ZR: Carlos Lee, FP: R. Braun)
cf: Mike Cameron (ZR: Kosuke Fukudome, FP: Shane Victorino)
rf: Jayson Werth (ZR: Brad Hawpe, FP: Jeff Francoeur)
p: Joel Piniero (ZR: Jonathan Sanchez; FP: massive tie including Sanchez but not Piniero)

Zone Rating basically tells how good a player is at making the routine play.  In other words, it holds that errors made outside their "zone" shouldn't count against them as much.  Not sure how plays successfully made outside their zone factor in exactly.

Anyways, just a few more numbers to chew on.

[Loaded NightraiN]

But this RF business sounds like the BCS crap, and we all know how well that works out... If they went based on only one system, it would get boring...

Keep it with the human touch, so we can all debate and bicker over it

[GeorgeSteele]

That's part of the reason I like stats like Range Factor (PO+A/innings at position) more than something like fielding percentage (PO+A/TC).  RF is based on the idea that the total number of outs that a player participates in is more relevant in evaluating his defensive play than the percentage of cleanly handled chances.

In other words, it believes errors are overrated, and it's better to have a fielder who's going to be involved in more plays and possibly make more errors than one who's going to participate in fewer plays and make fewer errors.

If RF was used to determine gold gloves, the winners would be (note that leaders in two other defensive metrics, Zone Rating and fielding percentage, are in parentheses if the RF leader, ZR leader, or FP leader are different)...

AL
c: Jason Varitek (ZR: Joe Mauer, FP: Gerald Laird)
1b: Paul Konerko (ZR: Carlos Pena, FP: Lyle Overbay)
2b: Aaron Hill (ZR: Jose Lopez, FP: Placido Polanco)
3b: Melvin Mora (ZR: Michael Young, FP: M. Mora)
ss: Cezar Izturis (ZR and FP: Derek JEter)
lf: Carl Crawford (ZR: Johnny Damon, FP: Jason Bay)
cf: Adam Jones (ZR and FP: Vernon Wells)
rf: Nelson Cruz (ZR: Michael Cuddyer, FP: J.D. Drew)
p: Mark Buehrle (ZR: Matt Garza, FP: 6-way tie, with neither Buehrle or Garza being part of it)

NL
c: Bengie Molina (ZR: Jason Kendall, FP: B. Molina)
1b: Albert Pujols (ZR: Derrick Lee, FP: Adam LaRoche)
2b: Kaz Matsui (ZR: Dan Uggla, FP: David Eckstein)
3b: Andy LaRoche (ZR and FP: Kevin Kouzmanoff)
ss: Cristian Guzman (ZR: Edgar Renteria, FP: Jimmy Rollins)
lf: Ryan Braun (ZR: Carlos Lee, FP: R. Braun)
cf: Mike Cameron (ZR: Kosuke Fukudome, FP: Shane Victorino)
rf: Jayson Werth (ZR: Brad Hawpe, FP: Jeff Francoeur)
p: Joel Piniero (ZR: Jonathan Sanchez; FP: massive tie including Sanchez but not Piniero)

Zone Rating basically tells how good a player is at making the routine play.  In other words, it holds that errors made outside their "zone" shouldn't count against them as much.  Not sure how plays successfully made outside their zone factor in exactly.

Anyways, just a few more numbers to chew on.

The problem with "Range Factor" is that it only means that the fielder had participated in more outs - it doesn't mean that the player's range was the reason they participated in more outs.  So, it shouldn't really be called Range Factor.

For example, Jeter plays for a team with a pitching staff that has a lot of strikeout pitchers (1,260 total strikeouts) while Baltimore's pitchers had only 933 total strikeouts.  So the reason that Izturis had a better "Range Factor" than Jeter is more likely due Baltimore's pitchers than his range.

No one ever agrees with me on this, but I've always felt a that hitting should factor in at least a little when awarding gold gloves.  I never liked those shortstops that could catch anything and everything but then could barely hit their weight.  As a rule, they're almost always pinch-hit for in critical late-inning situations, so what good is their glove if they can't stay on the field?

[Falcon]

More fielding fodder to chew on..

The Fielding Bible Awards were announced a couple weeks ago, interesting stuff - tons more info at http://www.fieldingbible.com/

First Base ? Albert Pujols, St. Louis
What?s left to say? Four Fielding Bible Awards in four years. When Pujols first came up I envisioned him as what Miguel Cabrera is now: a great hitter struggling to find a position he can play well defensively. Albert played left field (not so well). He played right field (not so well). He played third base (not so well). Then he discovered first base and has been the best in baseball, both offensively and defensively, ever since.

Second Base ? Aaron Hill, Toronto
It?s the second Fielding Bible Award for Hill (he won the 2007 award), and it didn?t come easily. The regular voting by the panel ended in a tie between Hill and Dustin Pedroia at 76 points with Chase Utley just three behind. For the second time in the history of the award, we went to the tie-breaker. The first tie-breaker rule is based on the player with the most first-place votes. Hill wins because he had four first-place votes from our ten panelists to only one for Pedroia.

Third Base ? Ryan Zimmerman, Washington
Third base is a very strong, deep defensive poistion in baseball right now. I would be comfortable with any of the top nine guys in our voting winning The Fielding Bible Award?or the Gold Glove award, for that matter?this year. Ryan Zimmerman has broken out of the pack in my estimation, however, by becoming the Defensive Runs Saved leader at third base over the last three years. His first Fielding Bible Award is well deserved. The rest of the best: Adrian Beltre, Chone Figgins, Evan Longoria, Scott Rolen, Brandon Inge, Pedro Feliz, Jack Hannahan and Joe Crede.

Shortstop ? Jack Wilson, Pittsburgh and Seattle
Wilson won?t win a Gold Glove this year. Just like Mark Teixeira didn?t win one last year. He split time between leagues, and the Gold Glove voters don?t know which league to put him in. Not so with The Fielding Bible Awards. Jack Wilson was the best shortstop in baseball last year. Period. We don?t care which league he played in. He led all shortstops in Run Saved by a wide margin (27 runs saved to Brendan Ryan?s 19) and has taken over the MLB lead for most Runs Saved over the last three years (51). Mr. Wilson is the Fielding Bible Award winner at shortstop for 2009.

Left Field ? Carl Crawford, Tampa Bay
He?s baaack! Again. Crawford wins his third award. The only year of our four that he didn?t win was two years ago (2007), when he came in a close second to Eric Byrnes. This year was no contest. No player has ever won with a perfect record (10 first place votes from 10 panelists), but Carl came as close as possible with nine first places and one second. That?s 99 points. (The best previously was 98 points by Adam Everett at shortstop in 2006.) If Crawford doesn?t win his first Gold Glove this year, I?m going to throw up.

Center Field ? Franklin Gutierrez, Seattle
What a story. Gutierrez excelled defensively for two years playing right field for Cleveland. He led all right-fielders in plus/minus in each of 2007 and 2008, despite playing less than 100 games each year. Seattle put a huge emphasis on defense in 2009, and Franklin came through for them with another Fielding Bible Award, this time in center field. His 31 runs saved tied him with Chone Figgins for the most in baseball last year. For outfielders, Carl Crawford?s 23 runs saved was second best to Gutierrez. The Seattle Mariners finished the 2009 season as the best defensive team in baseball, with 109 runs saved as a team.

Right Field ? Ichiro Suzuki, Seattle
Ichiro was no small part of Seattle?s defensive success as well. He saved 11 runs defensively, and our voters rewarded him with his second Fielding Bible Award. His first was in 2006. Hunter Pence gave him a run for his money, however, as Ichiro finished with 93 points to Hunter?s 84. Suzuki was named first on five ballots to three for Pence.

Catcher ? Yadier Molina, St. Louis
Yadier was the third ?most popular? vote getter in 2009. He was named first on eight ballots, finishing with 96 points. Everyone knows about Molina?s incredible throwing arm. Well, maybe not the eight guys he picked off this year (the most by any catcher?next most was four). But one thing that hasn?t been measured until recently is a catcher?s ability to prevent bad pitches from getting past him, allowing baserunners to move up. We measured this stat this year and shared it with our voters. No surprise, Yadier is one of the best.

Pitcher ? Mark Buehrle, Chicago
In The Fielding Bible?Volume II, we put some extra time into analyzing pitcher defense. It?s not only pitchers? ability to field their position that counts defensively. It?s their ability to hold runners that matters in an important way as well. In Buehrle?s case, he has it all. His plus/minus figure of +9 was tops among pitchers in 2009, but his ability to hold runners is legendary. In the last four years he?s allowed a total of 15 stolen bases. His catchers have managed to catch five potential thieves in that time period. But even more importantly, when Mark throws over to first, the results are devastating for baserunners. Sixteen times in those same four years, he?s thrown over to first and the runner broke for second and was thrown out. That?s a Pitcher Caught Stealing (PCS) in our scorebook. Not only that, 14 more times Buehrle nabbed a baserunner at the base as he tried to get back. That?s a Pitcher Pickoff (PPO), for those of you scoring at home. In total, 15 stolen bases against him (an average of just under four per year) and 35 guys thrown out (an average of almost nine per year).

[Loaded NightraiN]

^ Besides Pujols &  Buehrle(only because of their no hitter), none of those guys put their team in any kind of contention... Boo to that list

[Falcon]

Boo to that list

It's probably a better representation of fielding prowess than the Gold Glove Awards...

[freedom78]

Any list that puts Pujols ahead of D. Lee as a defensive first baseman is inherently flawed, in my opinion.  But, then again, the baseball world loves to get down on its knees for Pujols.  Slurp all ya want, fielding bible, but you don't field with your bat. 

[Falcon]

Here's the Fielding Bible breakdown for all positions:

http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/voting1-09.gif

As for the NL 1B Gold Glove for 2009, I suspect Gonzalez be awarded his second straight
today..

[Falcon]

And the NL Gold Glovers are:

P Adam Wainwright, Cardinals
C Yadier Molina, Cardinals
1B Adrian Gonzalez, Padres
2B Orlando Hudson, Dodgers
3B Ryan Zimmerman, Nationals
SS Jimmy Rollins, Phillies
OF Shane Victorino, Phillies
OF Michael Bourn, Astros
OF Matt Kemp, Dodgers

Updated: November 11, 2009, 4:44 PM ET
Rollins, Victorino win NL Gold GlovesComment Email Print Share Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Shortstop Jimmy Rollins has won his third consecutive NL Gold Glove and Philadelphia Phillies teammate Shane Victorino has won for the second straight time in the outfield.

St. Louis catcher Yadier Molina and San Diego first baseman Adrian Gonzalez also were second-time winners announced Wednesday.

Cardinals pitcher Adam Wainwright succeeded Greg Maddux, who won his record 18th last year.

Dodgers second baseman Orlando Hudson won for the fourth time, taking over from Cincinnati's Brandon Phillips.

Washington third baseman Ryan Zimmerman replaced the Mets' David Wright, a boyhood friend. Houston outfielder Michael Bourn and Dodgers outfielder Matt Kemp also were first-time winners.



No real argument from my NL viewpoint, could have gone Utley instead of Hudson but that's about it..

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Should have been Furcal/Utley instead of J-Roll/O-Dawg.

I'm glad Bourn was recognized for his work.

[pilferk]

Slightly off topic:

In December of 2000, my father...a life long Yankee Fan, and the guy who instilled his love of baseball in me...passed away of lung cancer.  This year, my wife and I are running the Runyon 5k, at yankee stadium. I know times are tough, the economy stinks, and we're all hurting. But ...if you can spare ANYTHING, please donate to this amazing cause, if you can:

https://www.drcrf.org/SSLPage.aspx?pid=447&frsid=6138

Thanks guys!

We may sometimes disagree on baseball, politics, and other heated topics...but I do count all of you as friends, virtual or not.

Here's to a memorable World Series.

Tomorrow's the big day!

Our start time is 11 AM.  The course sounds complex, challenging (about 300 stairs, broken up into 4 different sections) and FUN (2 laps on the warning track).  Should be a fun experience and a great way to honor my dad.

[Falcon]

.. and FUN (2 laps on the warning track). 

Laps on the warning track at Yankee Stadium huh?

Pretty fuckin' cool pilf.

Have fun!