2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

Ahh, reminds me of Kid Drysdale.

That's a helluva comparison, I was thinking a modern day Bob Gibson but Double D will do just fine.

Wainwright's cut from the same cloth complete with that "little brother" mentality - always trying to impress his mentor Carpenter. 

Maybe the best 1-2 punch going into the playoffs since Johnson/Schilling, just maybe.

Quick picks

Yanks in 3
Angels in 5
Phils in 4
Dodgers in 4

Yanks in 5
Dodgers in 7

Yanks get out the broom ruining Joe's return to The Bronx

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

The Phillies are not messing around.

[sandman]

i was certain the yanks would make it to the WS, but now i'm having doubts. the twins are dangerous right now, especially in a short series.

the phils have major pitching problems. the bullpen is a mess with lidge being worthless this year, and several injuries to key middle innings guys. and their SP has been inconsistent at best. their reign as world champs will be ending soon.

predictions....

Cards in 4.
Phils in 5.
Yanks in 3.
Angels in 4.

Cards in 6.
Yanks in 6.

Yanks over the Cards in 7. 

Man, I HOPE you're right.  But the Cards are TOUGH.  I think the Yanks and the Cards are the two best teams in baseball, right now, top to bottom.  It's actually the series I REALLY want to see as a baseball fan, but am most afraid of as a Yanks fan. 

Gonna be a fun post-season, I think.

yeah, IF that's the WS matchup, it's a total toss-up. when i first typed it i actually had the Cards in 7. very close to call (right now anyway).

Lee came through for the phils. great win. that trade will be evaluated for years - not so much for what the phils gave up, but should the phils have given up more to get halladay. this performance added alot to the argument that the phils made the right move.

but more importantly, they won the first game of a short series. that's huge.

now as long as all the Phils starters go 9 innings we'll be in good shape. 

[Falcon]

The Phillies are not messing around.

They sure as hell aren't, Lee was outstanding - great win.

Better get to that bullpen or they'll be defending their title in the Fall Classic.

[Loaded NightraiN]

That 17 for the last 21 is kind of a scary number for the Yanks... Hope they dont take these guys to lightly.. But I have confidence

Go Yanks!!!

It IS impressive.  No question.

But, on the flips side of the coin, here's who they played over that 21 games:

Oakland x1
Cleveland x3
Detroit x 8 (4 @ Detroit)
KC x 6 (3 @ KC)
Chicago x3 (all 3 @ Chicago).

With the exception of the spiralling Tigers...it's not like they were playing a whole lot of quality competition.

Again, still impressive and still something to worry about if you're a Yanks fan (or if you're just rooting for them). 

I made the same argument against a red sox fan co worker(band-wagon jumper  )

They are major league teams tho, regardless

[D]

Cards over the Yanks they have way better pitching and Pujols doesn't choke like ARod

[tim_m]

Cards over the Yanks they have way better pitching and Pujols doesn't choke like ARod

You were saying about Arod? He seems to be waking up two big two out rbi singles.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

People, relax.  This game 1 win was a complete fluke.

This is like the ultimate tease.

[pilferk]

I made the same argument against a red sox fan co worker(band-wagon jumper  )

They are major league teams tho, regardless

For sure they are (though you might be able to argue against Cleveland, this year   ).

But they're MLB teams playing an average of .450 baseball.  And if you remove Detroit from the mix....it's closer to .400 baseball.

Again, it's still impressive.  Playing .800+ baseball always is.  It's just not AS impressive, when you sit down and consider who their competition actually was.

Nice win for the Yanks last night.

[pilferk]

Cards over the Yanks they have way better pitching and Pujols doesn't choke like ARod

I think they have BETTER pitching, but not "way better pitching".  I'd say CC compares closely with either Wainright or Carpenter.  I'd say that AJ is lesser than whichever of them you don't compare to CC.  I think Pettite and Pinereiro are pretty close to equal...I might give the nod to Pettite, VERY slightly.    I'm not sure WHO their 4th guy is going to be....any Cards fans want to hazard a guess?  Given the choices, I'd say all but Smoltz would get the nod if our 4 is Joba.  Might be a bit closer if the Yanks go with Chad G, who's pitched well for us down the stretch.

As for A-rod.....so far, no choking to be seen.  2-4, 2 RBI, 2/3 with RISP.  Pretty good night for him.   

The other thing is:  I'd give the nod to the Yanks lineup over the Cards lineup.  It's closer than with ANY other team comparison in baseball, IMHO.  But the Yanks lineup is, I think, still marginally better on paper.  Even though the Cards DO have the best player in baseball (now) with Pujols.

Here's the tough part for me:  It's REALLY hard when comparing NL team's to an AL team's pitching.  Tons of AL pitchers, who were mediocre at best, go to the NL and become superstars (and the superstars become throwback pitchers, putting up unreal stats).  The opposite seems to be rarely true.  So when looking at pure stats, and then considering that in the WS, especially with the AL team having home field, they're facing AL lineups....it's hard (for me, at least) to get a real sense of what will happen.  If it were Yanks vs Cards, it wouldn't surprise me to see Wainright and Carpenter throw brilliantly....and it wouldn't shock me to see them get knocked around a little.

There's no doubt, IMHO, that the Cards are the best team, top to bottom, in the AL.  What remains to be seen is if they can get out of Dodge(ers) and win 7 games to get to the WS.  Basically, the same question with the Yanks.

[freedom78]

STL vs. LAD
---No question that St. Louis has the pitching advantage.  IF Los Angeles can squeak by with a win against Wainwright, then they can pull it out.  But a five game series means facing Carpenter twice and, barring La Rusa getting hammered and running him over, I'd take St. Louis any time Carpenter is pitching.  STL in three...and it kills me to say it.

So much for my banking on Carpenter.  I can only hope that now he becomes completely dejected and demands a trade to the Cubs, for the backup catcher from the Peoria chiefs. 

Oh...and we'll also throw in Milton Bradley and a case of Old Style.

[sandman]

Cards over the Yanks they have way better pitching and Pujols doesn't choke like ARod

I think they have BETTER pitching, but not "way better pitching".  I'd say CC compares closely with either Wainright or Carpenter.  I'd say that AJ is lesser than whichever of them you don't compare to CC.  I think Pettite and Pinereiro are pretty close to equal...I might give the nod to Pettite, VERY slightly.    I'm not sure WHO their 4th guy is going to be....any Cards fans want to hazard a guess?  Given the choices, I'd say all but Smoltz would get the nod if our 4 is Joba.  Might be a bit closer if the Yanks go with Chad G, who's pitched well for us down the stretch.

As for A-rod.....so far, no choking to be seen.  2-4, 2 RBI, 2/3 with RISP.  Pretty good night for him.   

The other thing is:  I'd give the nod to the Yanks lineup over the Cards lineup.  It's closer than with ANY other team comparison in baseball, IMHO.  But the Yanks lineup is, I think, still marginally better on paper.  Even though the Cards DO have the best player in baseball (now) with Pujols.

Here's the tough part for me:  It's REALLY hard when comparing NL team's to an AL team's pitching.  Tons of AL pitchers, who were mediocre at best, go to the NL and become superstars (and the superstars become throwback pitchers, putting up unreal stats).  The opposite seems to be rarely true.  So when looking at pure stats, and then considering that in the WS, especially with the AL team having home field, they're facing AL lineups....it's hard (for me, at least) to get a real sense of what will happen.  If it were Yanks vs Cards, it wouldn't surprise me to see Wainright and Carpenter throw brilliantly....and it wouldn't shock me to see them get knocked around a little.

There's no doubt, IMHO, that the Cards are the best team, top to bottom, in the AL.  What remains to be seen is if they can get out of Dodge(ers) and win 7 games to get to the WS.  Basically, the same question with the Yanks.

i hate that the leagues use different rules. you simply cannot compare. it's not apples to apples which really sucks. and there's plenty of exceptions to the common belief (K-Rod and Zito are big time recent examples, and gavin floyd is one that bother me a little  ). has there been any studies done that places some "value" on the 9-hole hitters in the AL vs. NL? even that wouldn't provide the full story because there are addiitonal factors (stadium dimensions, double switch, interleague games, etc.).

so much for that dominant Cards pitching staff.

[Falcon]

That game (Cards/Dodgers) was absolutely brutal to watch - walks, HBP's, etc..

A total 180 from what we all expected.

Great win for LA and a huge blow to the Cards.  Unfortunately for me, I expect more of the same in Game 2, Wainwright nonwithstanding.

Pilf - If a 4th starter is needed for STL, it'll be Smoltz or Lohse.  No idea what TLR will do just yet, smart money agrees with you and says Smoltz with Lohse available for long relief.

As for Cards/Yanks comparisons, my 2 cents..

Albert's obviously the best player on the planet, hands down no argument.  He would be pitched around to face anyone on the Yanks.  As Joe Torre said last night, he's "lethal".

That said..

I think the Yanks at this point are better top to bottom lineup wise..

Starting pitching?  Edge Cards with the top 2, beyond that, toss up.

Bullpen's Yanks all the way, no comparison.

Bench is probably a wash..

Cards obviously have the edge manager wise..

Beyond that, I still think it's the Yanks and everyone else for now..

[pilferk]

i hate that the leagues use different rules. you simply cannot compare. it's not apples to apples which really sucks. and there's plenty of exceptions to the common belief (K-Rod and Zito are big time recent examples, and gavin floyd is one that bother me a little  ). has there been any studies done that places some "value" on the 9-hole hitters in the AL vs. NL? even that wouldn't provide the full story because there are addiitonal factors (stadium dimensions, double switch, interleague games, etc.).

so much for that dominant Cards pitching staff.

There are lots of exceptions...but the fact they're viewed as exceptions tells us pretty much all we need to know.

But I agree...it's not apples to apples, which makes it so hard to really get a feel for things between the two leagues. 
No studies that I know of....but even then I'm not sure how apt it would be.  You'd be comparing a LOT of catchers (Mauer and Posada excluded) to mostly pitchers.  The kicker is the DH makes the AL middle lineup that much more productive, which dings AL pitching in terms of ERA, BAA, etc.

I woudln't worry quite yet about the Cards pitching.   Lets see what today brings.  They only need to win one in LA.

[pilferk]

Pilf - If a 4th starter is needed for STL, it'll be Smoltz or Lohse.  No idea what TLR will do just yet, smart money agrees with you and says Smoltz with Lohse available for long relief.

If he does...that's a +1 for the Yanks.  Especially considering what we did to him in Boston...UGLY! 

As for Cards/Yanks comparisons, my 2 cents..

Albert's obviously the best player on the planet, hands down no argument.  He would be pitched around to face anyone on the Yanks.  As Joe Torre said last night, he's "lethal".

Last year, I argued that A-rod still held the slimmest of margin leads, based almost entirely on his defense, over Pujols.  Not after this year.  Pujols has put up numbers this year, on both offense and defense, that put him head and shoulders above everyone else playing the game.  I think that would be true even if A-rod had not gotten hurt.

He's going to be tough to deal with.  Best bet:  Keep everyone else off the bases so if he does damage, it's minimal.

That said..

I think the Yanks at this point are better top to bottom lineup wise..

Agree.

Starting pitching?  Edge Cards with the top 2, beyond that, toss up.

I think our aces (whoever you want to designate that as on your team) are equal.  But I think your #2 is greater than AJ, by a good bit.  I think our #3's are roughly equal.  I think if Smoltz is your #4.....well, lets just say I think your manager should rethink that for the WS if they're facing the Yanks. 

Bullpen's Yanks all the way, no comparison.

As of today, agree.  We'll see if Hughes and Joba can shine in the post-season.  So far, so good.  If they do....everyone else is playing 6 innings to the Yanks 9.

Bench is probably a wash..

I'd guess that's true.  I don't know what you've got on yours.  Gardner is an X factor, with his speed.  Beyond that.....not much to worry about.

Cards obviously have the edge manager wise..

Yeah, I'd agree....unless Joe manages to win 27.

Beyond that, I still think it's the Yanks and everyone else for now..

The Yanks are good...but they're not perfect.  It's not one of those years where they're basically going to steamroll through.  They COULD....but it's not a definite.  And, again, of all the teams in the playoffs...the Cards are really the only team I don't think we match up well against.   Detroit, in a short series, would have been the other (thanks Twinkies!!).

[tim_m]

Cards over the Yanks they have way better pitching and Pujols doesn't choke like ARod

I think they have BETTER pitching, but not "way better pitching".  I'd say CC compares closely with either Wainright or Carpenter.  I'd say that AJ is lesser than whichever of them you don't compare to CC.  I think Pettite and Pinereiro are pretty close to equal...I might give the nod to Pettite, VERY slightly.    I'm not sure WHO their 4th guy is going to be....any Cards fans want to hazard a guess?  Given the choices, I'd say all but Smoltz would get the nod if our 4 is Joba.  Might be a bit closer if the Yanks go with Chad G, who's pitched well for us down the stretch.

As for A-rod.....so far, no choking to be seen.  2-4, 2 RBI, 2/3 with RISP.  Pretty good night for him.   

The other thing is:  I'd give the nod to the Yanks lineup over the Cards lineup.  It's closer than with ANY other team comparison in baseball, IMHO.  But the Yanks lineup is, I think, still marginally better on paper.  Even though the Cards DO have the best player in baseball (now) with Pujols.

Here's the tough part for me:  It's REALLY hard when comparing NL team's to an AL team's pitching.  Tons of AL pitchers, who were mediocre at best, go to the NL and become superstars (and the superstars become throwback pitchers, putting up unreal stats).  The opposite seems to be rarely true.  So when looking at pure stats, and then considering that in the WS, especially with the AL team having home field, they're facing AL lineups....it's hard (for me, at least) to get a real sense of what will happen.  If it were Yanks vs Cards, it wouldn't surprise me to see Wainright and Carpenter throw brilliantly....and it wouldn't shock me to see them get knocked around a little.

There's no doubt, IMHO, that the Cards are the best team, top to bottom, in the AL.  What remains to be seen is if they can get out of Dodge(ers) and win 7 games to get to the WS.  Basically, the same question with the Yanks.

A-rod would've been 3 for 4 last night with RISP i think. That first ball he crushed but the wind knocked it down in right field. He hit 3 balls very hard last night very encouraging. I feel bad for Tex. He did the same but had nothing to show for it. Everything the poor guy hit was at someone.

[Falcon]

Smoltz doesn't seem like the best 4th starter option to me either although I do think he'd be fine out of the bullpen to get an out or 2 or even close.  Dude's (when locating) still nasty with the ability to strike out people and his post season experience is invaluable.

If it gets to a game 4 in the LDS, Carpenter will go again and both Lohse/Smoltz are in the pen...

As for Albert, I haven't had ARod or anyone else for that matter even in the conversation for quite sometime.

Best hitter, Gold Glove fielder, leader, and soon to be 3 time MVP (should be 5)..we all know the resume.

He's the guy nobody wants to face when the game is on the line, the absolute most feared player in the game.

Not saying the Yanks are perfect.. (See Burnett/Posada -silly, the goofy Joba stuff..)

They (to me) are just really fucking good and seem to be about as unbeatable as a team can be. 

Really good players with the chemistry it takes to go juggernaut in October.

[Falcon]

Rocks get 1 in Philly, didn't see that one coming.

Looks like Hamels got knocked around a bit, didn't see that one coming either.

[cotis]

Dodgers up 2-0 now, so much for the two NL Cy Young candidates -- didn't help the Cards much here...

Slash played the National Anthem by the way...

[tim_m]

Cards are in a whole world of trouble now.