2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You haven't really disproved anything.

You rattle off some meaningless numbers, churn out Yankee propaganda, nod your head in approval and go about your day.

Stats are representations of fact...of history...of what's ACTUALLY occurred.  They are the ultimate in proof....hell, they're the definition of proof.  And they're not meaningless.  PERCEPTION is meaningless....because it's biased to all get out.  Are you seriously going to sit here and try to make a case that what's happened hasn't really happened, and that what you THINK has happened really has??  REALLY?

You might not understand the numbers, you might not like them, you may choose to ignore them because they refute your argument...but I got news for ya:  That doesn't change REALITY.  It just means you're choosing to ignore it or you lack the ability to grasp it.

Oh please, get off your high horse.  I can make up a stat right here and call it concrete proof because it's a stat.  The Billy Beane school sabermetrics will not take you very far.  Feed yourself all the stats you want to help yourself sleep better at night, but I stand by my statements about A-Rod being a team killer and a playoff choker.

Do me a favor, apply the pythagorean expectation on last weekend's series against the White Sox on your next break.

[D]

This is where u are wrong Pilferk

sure, tons of HOF players don't have rings, but guys like Patrick Ewing and CHarles Barkley, Karl Malone etc put up GREAT numbers in losing efforts.

how does hitting 159, 1 HR and 1 RBI over the past 3 seasons equal greatness?

If A Rod hit well and the Yanks still lost, that is fine. He did his job

but he isn't doing his job in the postseason.

[D]

You haven't really disproved anything.

You rattle off some meaningless numbers, churn out Yankee propaganda, nod your head in approval and go about your day.

Stats are representations of fact...of history...of what's ACTUALLY occurred.  They are the ultimate in proof....hell, they're the definition of proof.  And they're not meaningless.  PERCEPTION is meaningless....because it's biased to all get out.  Are you seriously going to sit here and try to make a case that what's happened hasn't really happened, and that what you THINK has happened really has??  REALLY?

You might not understand the numbers, you might not like them, you may choose to ignore them because they refute your argument...but I got news for ya:  That doesn't change REALITY.  It just means you're choosing to ignore it or you lack the ability to grasp it.

So stats are the ultimate proof

so why do u keep ignoring the fact A Rod has 1 more HR and 1 more RBI THEN ME the past 3 postseasons?

[Falcon]

A Fraud is not Kobe

How about ARod is no Albert? 

[D]

true, he isn't Pujols either

just saying, Kobe may have lost in the playoffs, but he put up big numbers and did his best.

A Fraud hitting one more homer than me ON steroids is just deplorable.

A Rod weak minded

[Falcon]

true, he isn't Pujols either

Not even close.

In performance, character, presence and universal respect.

ARod (and everyone else for that matter) are mere minions in the kingdom of El Hombre - easily the greatest player of this generation.

[tim_m]

Ok, who wants to talk about the big weekend series at the stadium? It should be a good one. The yanks have their best 4 starters going in the games nd they're all very good at home. Anyone going to any of the games? If the yanks can sweep this one the sox could be in trouble down 6 1/2.

[pilferk]

Oh please, get off your high horse.  I can make up a stat right here and call it concrete proof because it's a stat.  The Billy Beane school sabermetrics will not take you very far.  Feed yourself all the stats you want to help yourself sleep better at night, but I stand by my statements about A-Rod being a team killer and a playoff choker.

Do me a favor, apply the pythagorean expectation on last weekend's series against the White Sox on your next break.

Sorry, that pretty much, in a nutshell, tells me all I need to know about you as a baseball fan. 

LIPS, Clutch stats...these are all standardized statistics used in baseball.  They're not "made up".  They're not out of left field.  And if that's the way you approach the game......it's pointless to discuss things with  you.  Because you're going to just ignore any and all actual evidence to jump to the emotional conclusion you want to get to.  As I said....that "rah rah dittohead" type of fandom bores me, especially in terms of DISCUSSING sports. 

Better for you to just say "I hate A-rod" and move on.

[pilferk]

This is where u are wrong Pilferk

sure, tons of HOF players don't have rings, but guys like Patrick Ewing and CHarles Barkley, Karl Malone etc put up GREAT numbers in losing efforts.

how does hitting 159, 1 HR and 1 RBI over the past 3 seasons equal greatness?

If A Rod hit well and the Yanks still lost, that is fine. He did his job

but he isn't doing his job in the postseason.

And how about the fact he hit .270 in the 2007 playoffs?  Or that he was hitting over .300 in the playoffs in 2004 until the last 4 games vs the Sox?  You're being VERY selective, and it's sorta obvious why.

So your saying you judge the guy, in sum total, on his 13 games where he's played poorly in the playoffs FOR the YANKEES, and not the 900+ games he's played during the regular season for the Yanks and 11 games where he's hit just fine in the playoffs, for the Yanks?  Or how about the 1600-ish games he played BEFORE he joined the Yanks (his career didn't start in 2004), and the 13 games he played in the playoffs with Seattle where he hit WELL over .300?

Really?  Because, again, that's where we're going to part company.

I suspect you're choosing to focus on the ONE stat that will support the conclusion you've already come to, rather than looking at the big picture and ALL the stats.  Again, I wonder why people won't just say "I don't like A-rod" and move on? Instead, they seem to search for justification AFTER they've already formed their opinion of the guy.  Because, at this point, your evidence is sorta flimsy to support the "A-rod should be run out of town on a rail" point that this discussion started with.

Look, if your point is simply that A-Rod has not produced as much as "you'd" like (though I suspect the non-Yankee fans are quite happy he hasn't) him to, in some playoff series, while on the Yanks....as I've said before, I'm right there with you.  But 13 games CAN'T be used to define the guys entire career or his value to the Yanks.  That's just silly.

Edit: BA and HR's have been deplorable in late '04 - 06.  But it's tough to take him to task on RBI.  The people in front of him hadn't been getting on base.  It's tough to drive a guy in, even Sac him in, when you have no base runners.

[pilferk]

true, he isn't Pujols either

Not even close.

In performance, character, presence and universal respect.

ARod (and everyone else for that matter) are mere minions in the kingdom of El Hombre - easily the greatest player of this generation.

In character and universal respect...I'm there with you.  On the field (or to get into the HOF), I'm not sure that means much.  Seems like a very nice guy.  I hope and pray the "rumors" aren't true...I suspect they're not, but....who knows now a days.  He and Howard just don't strike me as juicers.

In terms of plate presence and career statistics....Pujols and A-rod are on pretty similar trajectories....Pujols slightly faster.  Pujols may, SOMEDAY, surpass A-rod's numbers...but part of that is longevity, and guys with Pujols body type have typically broken down a bit quicker than those with A-rod's.  Doesn't mean it WILL happen, and I really like Pujols and hope he doesn't. So far, so good.  But lets wait a bit before annointing him as king of his generation.  Howard is going to have some say in that, as is Longoria.  We nnointed Griffey very early...and look what happened.  Pujols has the chops to be the best (not just of this generation, but ever), and is already in the elite category, working his way to the top of it; THAT I agree with 100%

This year?  Pujols is the best player on the planet.  And I think I'd give him the nod on "mental fortitude", too.  He's one cool character.

[pilferk]

Ok, who wants to talk about the big weekend series at the stadium? It should be a good one. The yanks have their best 4 starters going in the games nd they're all very good at home. Anyone going to any of the games? If the yanks can sweep this one the sox could be in trouble down 6 1/2.

Saturday and Sunday, I'll be there as it turns out.  My buddy has season tix, called last night, and someone backed out.  Hopefully they're good games....the Sunday night game is gonna be tough.  I gotta work the next day!

3 games in a week (Saturday, Sunday, and Wednesday).  I'm gonna be broke, fat, and VERY happy.

[tim_m]

Ok, who wants to talk about the big weekend series at the stadium? It should be a good one. The yanks have their best 4 starters going in the games nd they're all very good at home. Anyone going to any of the games? If the yanks can sweep this one the sox could be in trouble down 6 1/2.

Saturday and Sunday, I'll be there as it turns out.  My buddy has season tix, called last night, and someone backed out.  Hopefully they're good games....the Sunday night game is gonna be tough.  I gotta work the next day!

3 games in a week (Saturday, Sunday, and Wednesday).  I'm gonna be broke, fat, and VERY happy.

Have fun! I hope they're good games too. Hopefully Sabbathia and Pettitte will pitch better then in their last start. Pettitte wasn't terrible but can't have those command problems against the sox and Sabbathia was a bit shaky he had to battle through that start. I expect Burnett to rebound from that terrible start against the sox and be the pitcher he has been since mid june. I'm really looking forward to tonight's game. I wanna see Joba pitch against the sox. He has been lights out since coming out of the break. I'm glad its on tv so that i can see it down here in Texas.

[faldor]

I don't like A-Rod and he hasn't performed like the highest paid player in baseball should in the playoffs.  I'm moving on.

As for the big upcoming series.  The Sox just dropped 2 in Tampa, where they can't seem to win anymore.  They're like 2-15 there since 2007 or something ridiculous.  The Sox DO have Beckett and Lester going, so that's a good thing.  But they also have Smoltz and Buchholz going, so that's not so good.  The Sox are in their "can't hit good pitching" mode right now so if the Yanks pitchers are throwing well it could get ugly, as the Yanks seem to be mashing per usual.  I have a feeling the Sox aren't gonna be able to stay undefeated against the Yanks this weekend.  I'm going out on a limb on that one.

[pilferk]

I don't like A-Rod and he hasn't performed like the highest paid player in baseball should in the playoffs.  I'm moving on.

I respect you for just coming out and admitting the first part, and agree with the 2nd part (though I'd sub in "highest paid" with "one of the best", since I think it's more relevant).

As for the big upcoming series.  The Sox just dropped 2 in Tampa, where they can't seem to win anymore.  They're like 2-15 there since 2007 or something ridiculous.  The Sox DO have Beckett and Lester going, so that's a good thing.  But they also have Smoltz and Buchholz going, so that's not so good.  The Sox are in their "can't hit good pitching" mode right now so if the Yanks pitchers are throwing well it could get ugly, as the Yanks seem to be mashing per usual.  I have a feeling the Sox aren't gonna be able to stay undefeated against the Yanks this weekend.  I'm going out on a limb on that one.

The way I'd THINK it goes, based on comparing pitchers, is the Yanks win against Smoltz and Buchholz, the Becket/AJ matchup being a toss up, and the Sox get the edge in Lester/Andy.  That being said...knowing the unpredictability and craziness that always seems to ensue for Yanks/Sox, I wouldn't be surprised (disappointed, but not surprised) if the Yanks lost all 4, just as I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow managed another "boston massacre".

I'll say this:  If the Yanks sweep (an unlikely outcome, at best).....the Sox are going to be in trouble.  Granted, there will be 50 games left to play, and they can make up ground in a hurry.  But I don't think any team would like the prospect of being 6.5 out of first with only 50 to play.  That's a tough (not insurmountable) position to get put in.

On the flip side, if the Yanks win ONE game...they come out of the series still in 1st place, by a 1/2 game. 

Gonna be a fun, interesting weekend. 

[faldor]

Boston fans have been screaming to drop Smoltz like a bad habit.  He hasn't fared well against the likes of the Royals, Orioles, and A's, so facing the Yankees seems like an absolute disaster.  BUT, like you said, these matchups are often unpredictable.  Maybe Smoltz and Buchholz focus a little better on the big stage.  I doubt it, but I can dream.  Beckett and Lester have been pitching great of late but they're no guarantee.  The Yanks have hit Beckett pretty well in the past and Lester can be spotty at times.  The Sox need to make some sort of waiver deal for a SS.  Nick Green has hit the wall and Jed Lowrie is batting .120 or so.  It's close to an automatic out in the #9 spot.

I wouldn't be surprised it the Sox lost 3 of 4 in the series, I'd hope they could win at least the Beckett or Lester game.  The only thing that would really surprise me would be a sweep on either side.

[pilferk]

I wouldn't be surprised it the Sox lost 3 of 4 in the series, I'd hope they could win at least the Beckett or Lester game.  The only thing that would really surprise me would be a sweep on either side.

Yeah, I probably should have used the phrase "It wouldn't shock me", rather than "it wouldn't surprise me".  I guess I WOULD be a bit "surprised" by either team sweeping.....

But then, that seems to be the way with the Yanks this year.  They win and lose in bunches.  They've just (so far) been winning in larger bunches than they lose.

On Smoltz...we're basically in the same boat with Mitre.  Rock|Yanks|Hard place.  He's looked awful in some of his starts and only marginal in the other 2.  They gotta find another solution in the 5 hole....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Oh please, get off your high horse.  I can make up a stat right here and call it concrete proof because it's a stat.  The Billy Beane school sabermetrics will not take you very far.  Feed yourself all the stats you want to help yourself sleep better at night, but I stand by my statements about A-Rod being a team killer and a playoff choker.

Do me a favor, apply the pythagorean expectation on last weekend's series against the White Sox on your next break.

Sorry, that pretty much, in a nutshell, tells me all I need to know about you as a baseball fan. 

LIPS, Clutch stats...these are all standardized statistics used in baseball.  They're not "made up".  They're not out of left field.  And if that's the way you approach the game......it's pointless to discuss things with  you.  Because you're going to just ignore any and all actual evidence to jump to the emotional conclusion you want to get to.  As I said....that "rah rah dittohead" type of fandom bores me, especially in terms of DISCUSSING sports. 

Better for you to just say "I hate A-rod" and move on.

Those stupid stats are only preached by geekboys like yourself.  Fire away all those useless figures all you want, but the FACT remains that A-ROD is not a CLUTCH playoff performer and he will choke again when he needs to rise to the occasion.  Sure it's pointless trying to speak to me or anyone in this thread, because:

A) You're only trying to convince yourself that the Yankees are OK and have always been on top.
B) Obscure stats make your boys look good and help you sleep at night.
C) No one really cares about those things.  You think a scout in some Caribbean island is going to hold off on signing a prospect because he needs to study the player's EQA, LIPS, and DIPS?

Take the emotion out of sports why don't ya?  Let's just run the games on simulators.

[D]

Pilferk still has dodged my ?

159 1 hr 1 rbi in the last 3 post seasons

explain that please.

The Yankees aren't paying A Rod that money to MAKE the playoffs. Yanks should make the playoffs every year with the 200 plus million pay roll

they thought A Rod would deliver championships and he will never do that cause he is a choker.


If u settle for your favorite team to just make the playoffs, what kind of shit is that?

U think Garry would come on here talking if Kobe and LA just make the playoffs and get booted round 1? no way


If my Kentucky Wildcats don't make the Final Four or at least Elite 8. our season is a disappointment.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Pilferk still has dodged my ?

159 1 hr 1 rbi in the last 3 post seasons

explain that please.

NOOOOOO!!!!!

You're ignoring the fact that he hit .270 before the most epic meltdown in all of sports!!!!

STOP BEING SO SELECTIVE!

I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME!

[pilferk]

Pilferk still has dodged my ?

159 1 hr 1 rbi in the last 3 post seasons

explain that please.

I did, actually. 

Your question:

how does hitting 159, 1 HR and 1 RBI over the past 3 seasons equal greatness?

My answer:

So your saying you judge the guy, in sum total, on his 13 games where he's played poorly in the playoffs FOR the YANKEES, and not the 900+ games he's played during the regular season for the Yanks and 11 games where he's hit just fine in the playoffs, for the Yanks?  Or how about the 1600-ish games he played BEFORE he joined the Yanks (his career didn't start in 2004), and the 13 games he played in the playoffs with Seattle where he hit WELL over .300?

To elaborate, for the incredibly small sample set you've chosen simply because it illustrates your point....if you were ONLY looking at that...you wouldn't see greatness.

But you don't only look at that.....unless, of course, you're looking for a reason to dislike the guy.  You look at the sum total.

The Yankees aren't paying A Rod that money to MAKE the playoffs.

They're not?  I didn't realize that he, or any player, was only paid once they made it into the post season.....

He's paid to play 162+ games per season...so, in part at least, he IS paid to MAKE the playoffs.

As well as put butts in seats, generate merchandise sales, TV ratings, and contribute to the overall profitability of the Yankees organization.

Yanks should make the playoffs every year with the 200 plus million pay roll

And they have....every year except 1.  And that ONE year they were decimated by injuries.

they thought A Rod would deliver championships and he will never do that cause he is a choker.

Sorry D, I didn't realize you could predict the future.  I can't comment on what he might do going forward because I can't....

Now, my question:

If he's such a choker, how do you explain his performance in Seattle, in the playoffs, and in the '07 playoffs with the Yanks? 

He played badly in a couple handfuls of games for the Yanks.  He's played well in a couple handfuls of games with the Yanks.  Why do you suspect YOUR small sample is the indicative one, and not the aberration?

I think everyone knows the answer, here....which is fine, but just do what faldor did and admit it: "I dislike A-rod".

If u settle for your favorite team to just make the playoffs, what kind of shit is that?

U think Garry would come on here talking if Kobe and LA just make the playoffs and get booted round 1? no way

If my Kentucky Wildcats don't make the Final Four or at least Elite 8. our season is a disappointment.

It's called "resonable expectations".  There are plenty of fans who aren't capable of having them.

Do you root for them to win it all?  Sure you do.

Is the season an abject, complete, 100% failure if they don't, but make the playoffs? No. 

I have a reality check for ya: You CAN'T ACTUALLY WIN IT ALL EVERY YEAR

FYI, Final 4 or Elite 8?  That basically equates to the MLB playoffs.  Elite 8 = ALDS/NLDS.