2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

what are his stats with the Yanks? That was what I was referring to.

23/94 244 average  4 Homeruns 9 Rbi';s

/discussion please

he ain't Kobe

last 3 postseasons: 7 for his last 44  159 average 1 HR 1 RBI

25 million don't buy what it use to.

You can't just look at  his postseason stats over that period in the playoffs and blame it all on him. The yankees as a team collectively over that time couldn't hit a beach ball if the bat was 10" wide. Find out what every other yankee offensive stats from game 4 of the 04 ALCS until 07 is and i bet its very similar in most cases.

[D]

A Rod is the LEADER right?

So i guess Jason Giambi striking out makes A Rod strike out also? what kind of logic is that?

[fear the juggalo 2]

i wish them both to the corn fields. btw, prince fielder is a joke. you didn't see manny have roid rage when they threw at him. didn't someone in the brewers dugout tell him, your probably gonna get thrown at. & he waits til after the game to try to fight when everyone can hold him back? what a fuckin joke. go eat a carrot & calm down!

[pilferk]

I don't think the Yanks had a payroll of 200 million when Donnie baseball was playing.  No one did, but still I'm pretty sure they weren't outspending all other teams by a wide margin back then.  Also, there's no comparison between A-Rod and Mattingly.  Alex is twenty times the player, he just chokes when it counts in October.  I'm sure he'll eventually break that trend, but until he does, you can't overlook the fact that he hits like Don Slaught in October.

But..payroll wasn't the point made (though I'll get to that in a second).  The point made was that the Yanks hadn't won a pennant or WS since A-rod joined them, which was an indicator, somehow, that A-rod was not a valuable part of the Yanks team and was a "cause" of their lack of success in that department.  It's circular logic, without any indication of cause/effect.  And if you look at the stats, it's REALLY tough to lay the blame, solely or even mostly, at his feet.

There might not be a comparison in statistical production between Mattingly and A-Rod, but there is a pretty apt comparison in situation.  The disparity in statistical production actually PROVES my point, rather than detracts from it....since you would think, with those numbers, he'd be beloved by every Yanks fan known to man in light of the fact Mattingly is.

To be 100% accurate, A-rod hit like Don Slaught for 4 games in 2004, 5 games in '05, 4 games in '06.  He hit just fine in 2007 (.267, with a .353 OBP and  1 HR in 15 AB's).  I agree, for the most part, an abysmal stretch...but the reality is he's hit fine for 2.5 series and sucked for 2.5 series.  In additon, you look at his contributions to the team during those regular seasons....and they're likely not playing in the post-season without his numbers....ESPECIALLY in 2007. 

Now, if you want to talk payroll...we can do that (again)...though I suspect you'll find it a rehash of earlier discussions.

Payroll is a nice, convenient sharp stick the Yanks haters like to use...but ultimately, it's meaningless.  Here's why:

1)  If the Yanks win...and there's no statistical argument that they HAVEN'T won....they should win more.  If they lose, they're bums who aren't earning their money.  And if they win it ALL, they were supposed to win so they're still bums, since they're paid more than anyone else.  It's a catch .22....so ultimately, it's just noise.

2) Payroll is a FINANCIAL metric.  It has proven to be a very fickle predictor of "on the field" outcomes in the post-season (and in many cases in the regular season, to boot...witness the 2 Florida teams, the Twins, etc)....and not just for the Yanks.   So, if you want to talk payroll in terms of success...in addition to what you're viewing as ROI on the field, you need to look at things like organizational revenue and profitability, brand recognition, merchandising opportunity, and a whole host of other business concerns.  In essence, what are those $$'s buying you, in sum total.  But that's not what the Yankee haters REALLY want to do...because they know it's a losing argument.   

The payroll thing is LONG since played out, debunked, and put out to pasture in terms of it's use in this context.  Me thinks the Yankee haters need to find some new material.....because if the "goal" is to get under Yanks fans skin, or even if it's to make any sort of "argument"...this isn't cutting it anymore.   It's the "old standby" that every Yankee hater tries to bring the conversation back around to.....

[pilferk]

A-Rod is the Kobe of baseball.

Sure he took the Lakers to the playoffs, but they lost in the first round a few times.

Everyone blamed Kobe, even though he was winning scoring titles and breaking records.  No one cares about those things.  A-Roid can hit 74 HR's, but if they miss the postseason or lose in the LDS again, it will be all his fault.

I'll take emotion over "reason" and "analytical thinking" anyday.

Again, you're talking about a juxtaposition of "reality" and "perception", "emotion" with "logic". 

It's why I get frustrated when, if A-rod doesn't hit 1.000 with 65 HR's  in late inning games with RISP, people start calling him a bum.  They invent all these detractions from the guy (he's not clutch, he hits meaningless home runs, etc, etc), all which get debunked the minute you actually look at statistics and numbers (ie: a tangible reflection of REALITY).  It's "sports talk radio" syndrome, at it's finest.

The ONE knock on the guy that is remotely tenuable is that he has not produced in some past years, in the playoffs, as a Yankee.  It's a VERY narrow detraction, and it's one I agree with...but it doesn't change his value all that much.

If you're going to take "emotion" over reason and analytical thinking...that's where our disconnect is going to be.  That sort of approach just gets us shouting wars of "Boston sucks", "Yanks stink","A-roid is a pussy" and "Pedroia is a pedophile".  That kind of "rah rah dittohead" fandom just isn't my bag.

I'm not saying there's no place for emotion in sports...that would be crazy.   But when DISCUSSING sports, it just makes for a lot of "noise", with people shouting over each other.  And I find that sorta boring, outside the actual arena.

[pilferk]

what are his stats with the Yanks? That was what I was referring to.

23/94 244 average  4 Homeruns 9 Rbi';s

/discussion please

he ain't Kobe

last 3 postseasons: 7 for his last 44  159 average 1 HR 1 RBI

25 million don't buy what it use to.

His stats with the Yanks:  .299 BA, .400 OB%, .568 SLG% with 227 HR's....in 6 years.

You don't just pay a player's salary in the post-season.

He hit FINE for the first series in 2004.  He hit FINE for the first 3 games vs the Sox (and, FYI, he was NOT the only one on the Yanks team to suddenly forget how to swing a bat those last 4 games) in 2004.  He hit FINE in 2007, the last time they were there. 

I understand that very few people like A-rod.  I'm not a big fan of the guy, personally.  And I understand how people allow that to color their perception of the guy....fair enough.

But the reality is...the guy is earning his money, and is a valuable cog in the Yanks team.  You need look no further than to see the Yanks record this year before and after A-rod, and to look at Tex's numbers before and after A-rod.  You might want to chalk it up to coincidence....but the numbers are pretty compelling.

You have to win in the 162 games PRIOR to the post season in order to PLAY in the post-season.  The Yanks saw that, better than anyone, last year.  Would I like him to pick up his game in the playoffs.  You're darn tootin' I would.  But it's hard to objectively sit here, look at his numbers, and say the guy isn't worth keeping and should be traded at the first opportunity (not that anyone would take him, or that he'd leave).  That's patently ridiculous, IMHO.

[pilferk]

what are his stats with the Yanks? That was what I was referring to.

23/94 244 average  4 Homeruns 9 Rbi';s

/discussion please

he ain't Kobe

last 3 postseasons: 7 for his last 44  159 average 1 HR 1 RBI

25 million don't buy what it use to.

You can't just look at  his postseason stats over that period in the playoffs and blame it all on him. The yankees as a team collectively over that time couldn't hit a beach ball if the bat was 10" wide. Find out what every other yankee offensive stats from game 4 of the 04 ALCS until 07 is and i bet its very similar in most cases.

Jeter hit decently in '05 and '06..but sucked the big toe in '07. Giambi had a good year in '05, Abreu and Posada had good years in '06.

Most of the rest of the Yanks lineup during that time frame has been mediocre, at best. 

[pilferk]

A Rod is the LEADER right?

So i guess Jason Giambi striking out makes A Rod strike out also? what kind of logic is that?

No, Jeter is the leader, actually.  Says so right on his jersey with the big "C".

I think the point wasn't that the rest of the teams performance effects A-rod's (although it might...there is some pretty good empirical data about that kind of thing...things like being protected in a "hot" lineup..that kind of stuff).  I think more the point was that it's tough to lay the blame solely at A-rods feet for the Yanks post-season ills when the rest of the team wasn't exactly performing, either.

Their pitching stats, FYI, are pretty bad, too.

[faldor]

I'm not trying to use the payroll argument to knock the Yankees.  I'm simply saying Don Mattingly played on much inferior teams than A-Rod, so there's no comparison.  You can't knock Donnie for not winning the big one because the teams he played on just weren't that good.  EVERY season since 1996 the Yankees are one of, if not THE front runner to win it all.  That wasn't the case during Mattingly's tenure.  So again, there's no comparison.

And obviously it's not A-Rod's fault alone that they haven't won since he got there.  It's a team game, I'm not about to single one guy out and blame it all on him.  But he's certainly been part of the problem.  Their offense is/has been built to carry them and it has failed in the post-season after 2000, and A-Rod has done his fair share of nothing in those games. 

It's admirable to stick up for A-Rod and I actually agree with your position.  If I was you, and was a Yankee fan, I'd like to think I'd have A-Rod's back as well.  But the majority of Yankee fans don't share your views.  He's not viewed as a true Yankee because he didn't come through the system and hasn't won a World Series.  He's not Jeter, Posada, Rivera, etc.  Those guys can do no wrong, so while Jeter's playoff numbers have probably been even worse than A-Rod's since 2004, he gets a pass because of all he's done for the organization.  A-Rod will still get booed by the home crowd if he goes into a prolonged slump.  I personally don't agree with it.  You don't see that at Fenway, but that's the way it is.

[pilferk]

I'm not trying to use the payroll argument to knock the Yankees.  I'm simply saying Don Mattingly played on much inferior teams than A-Rod, so there's no comparison.  You can't knock Donnie for not winning the big one because the teams he played on just weren't that good.  EVERY season since 1996 the Yankees are one of, if not THE front runner to win it all.  That wasn't the case during Mattingly's tenure.  So again, there's no comparison.

And obviously it's not A-Rod's fault alone that they haven't won since he got there.  It's a team game, I'm not about to single one guy out and blame it all on him.  But he's certainly been part of the problem.  Their offense is/has been built to carry them and it has failed in the post-season after 2000, and A-Rod has done his fair share of nothing in those games. 

Again, payroll isn't a great on field predictor of outcomes....so, again....it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Doesn't matter who the front runners were (and, FYI, early mid 80's, when Mattingly joined the team, they WERE front runners...ditto for parts of the "late early" 90's.....like 93 and 94).  Both players failed to win a pennant or WS.  I know people don't LIKE the comparison, because it brings to light the "A-rod prejudice"...but it's functionally the same thing.  Both players were members of teams who didn't win the big prizes. MAYBE one was "more favored" than the other...but they both played on some front runners.    One is considered a true yankee great..and the other is crapped on.

It all comes down to perception....because you said it yourself:  A-rod's overall numbers DWARF Donny Baseball's (who, in the interest of full disclosure, might be my favorite living Yankee).

It's admirable to stick up for A-Rod and I actually agree with your position.  If I was you, and was a Yankee fan, I'd like to think I'd have A-Rod's back as well.  But the majority of Yankee fans don't share your views.  He's not viewed as a true Yankee because he didn't come through the system and hasn't won a World Series.  He's not Jeter, Posada, Rivera, etc.  Those guys can do no wrong, so while Jeter's playoff numbers have probably been even worse than A-Rod's since 2004, he gets a pass because of all he's done for the organization.  A-Rod will still get booed by the home crowd if he goes into a prolonged slump.  I personally don't agree with it.  You don't see that at Fenway, but that's the way it is.

Be prepared...a rant is coming....not directed at you, necessarily, but.....here goes:

You know, it's not even about "sticking up" for him or "having his back".  Like I said, I don't like the guy on a personal level.  And I would hardly consider myself an "A-rod fan" (defender, maybe, but he's not even in the top 5 of my favorites on the current team!). But for me it's about the fundamental difference between reality and perception/expectations/emotions.  I'll be the first Yanks fan to admit that MANY, MANY Yanks fans were spoiled by the mid 90's, and it's turned large groups of "us" into complete asses. Some of us think it's the Yanks god given right, predestined in the stars, to win 130 games every year, and walk through the post season where they hand us the WS trophy based on a mercy rule....and that anything less than complete and utter domination, first of the league and then of the Sox, means the Yanks are an abject failure without any redeeming qualities or success.   You have no further to look than the NY sports media (specifically sports talk radio) for evidence.  They were TEARING IT UP after the All Star break, best record in baseball (for a day), and STILL you heard the mouthpieces trashing this or that, and the fans going ballistic.  Even worse, if they lose a couple of games, even if they're tight, the sky is falling and hell is opening it's gates to welcome the Yanks and the fans, the season is over, and the fans should crawl into holes like groundhogs and wait for spring.   That's just nuts.

And nobody has been as big a "victim" in that than A-rod has. Now, I'm not crying a river for the guy: He's rich, successful (no matter what some fans say), and he tends to get some hot looking women (not "Jeter quality" women, but still) hanging around.  But still....

His personality (or lack there of) and his penchant for doing "tabloid-y" things makes him an easy target.  People flat out don't like him.  I get that.  But you have to seperate THAT from his production on the field.  Do I want to have dinner with the guy? No. I would likely have said the same for some OTHER former Yank greats (Ruth, Dimaggio, others) who were hardly upstanding citizens, but who were amazing players.  Do I want A-rod playing for my team?  Abso-fucking-lutely.     Yanks fans, in particular, seem to be horribly bad at that when it comes to A-rod.  I get "passion", I guess.....but not the "mob rule" mentality (or is that an oxymoron?).

To wit, what really gets me is the hypocrisy.  We WANT the best players.  Yanks fans were on the warpath, calling Cashman to the carpet, because he didn't make a bigger play for Doc Halliday.  They did the same thing when he wouldn't pull the trigger on the Santanna deal.  They SCREAMED that we had to get C.C, A.J., Tex and everyone else known to man in the offseason. 

Then....we get 'em.   And, like all players, they have their ups and downs.  The minute they hit the first hurdle (witness Tex early this year), they want to disown you, ridicule you, and put you out to pasture.  You're a bum, a bust, and overpaid nothing....after TEN GAMES!!??  Because A-rod is the higest paid player, 2 MVP seasons, and elite level numbers the rest of the time, aren't enough?  He should be batting .750, hit 80 HR's, knock in 200 RBI's AND score 225 runs EVERY YEAR!!??  Do these fans not "get" the significance of a 162 game season, both in terms of production and stamina?  Is it just a product of the "instant gratification" generation or the 24 hour (sports) news cycle that's looking for noise to broadcast?  I don't know...maybe I'm just turning into one of those "old timers" WAY too young...but, really, sometimes Yanks fans just make no sense to me.  Sometimes they make less sense than the Yankee haters.

And yes,  I understand "the way it is". But that doesn't mean it makes sense, that I like it, that I think the majority is right simply because they're the majority, or any of that.  In addition, as I said before, as soon as the discussion turns to "emotion" over "reason", I'm out.  I part company with a good number of passionate Yanks fans (and baseball fans) in that respect.  I'll sit and watch games with them, but I'd never actually discuss sports with them.  It's pointless. 

OK...rant over.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

A-Rod killed the chemistry the players had before.

You can't measure it with one of pilferk's fancy stats, but team chemistry is the most valuable commodity in the clubhouse.

Stick that in your computer.

Jeter came all the way from short to make this catch, A-Roid gave up on the play.  Look at his body language, he's frightened.  He would never make this type of play.  I would never want a guy like that on his team, even if he bats .750 and knocks in 80 HR's.

[pilferk]

A-Rod killed the chemistry the players had before.

You can't measure it with one of pilferk's fancy stats, but team chemistry is the most valuable commodity in the clubhouse.

Stick that in your computer.

I was wondering when we'd finally get to this.  It's like the payroll argument, but less substantive.  It's where many Yankee/A-rod Haters go when they realize they just can't make an argument based on stats and reality.  They have to go for the "non-quantitative" route.

It's a convenient claim...except they didn't win in 2001, 2002, or 2003...before A-rod arrived.  I suppose he "pro-actively" destroyed the clubhouse chemistry on the Yanks while playing for the Rangers??   It's also a convenient claim, given there's no earthly way you can prove it.  It's triplely convenient in that every active Yankee (and some who are no longer on the team, like Giambi) denies it.  Even Torre, in his "shock and awe" scalding book says it's not true.  He paint's A-rod as an outsider, with a serious lack of social skills,  but specifically says he didn't really change the chemistry in the clubhouse when he arrived. 

You'll excuse me if I take their anecdotal evidence over your emotional perception or your grasp at trying to find something, ANYTHING, to hang over A-rod's head that isn't directly disputed by facts.

Is chemistry important?  Sure.  It's also overrated....at least if you think "chemistry" means all is sweetness and light in the locker room and that without it you're destined to fail.   There have been any number of championship teams that had teammates who really did not like each other all that much.  The Shaq/Kobe Lakers ring a bell?  They're hardly an anomaly.

Jeter came all the way from short to make this catch, A-Roid gave up on the play.  Look at his body language, he's frightened.  He would never make this type of play.  I would never want a guy like that on his team, even if he bats .750 and knocks in 80 HR's.

Watch the play in full, fast motion. I saw it live, and I've seen it, I'd guess, dozens of times since.   Jeter had the ONLY line on that play, AND he was calling it off the entire time.  A-rod look scared all right...because he knows that Jeter has wrapped himself around concrete and metal after making the play. Remember, that catch was made in fair territory, with a good bit of real estate between Jete's and the stands. He just couldn't stop.  A-rod's scared, I'd guess, that there is about to be a lot of blood and possibly some serious injuries, to the team captain.

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200805122685729

Again, you want to let emotion cloud your reason...that's where our disconnect is gonna be.  And let's face it, the Sox fans were SALIVATING when they thought they were gonna get A-rod.  So let's not pretend nobody wants (or wanted) him to play for them.  That's just silly.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Well, the Yanks went to the World Series in 2001 and 2003.  Going by your "metrics of success" those were pretty good years.

You believe what Torre says?  I wouldn't believe him if he told me he puts his socks on first, then his shoes.  Have you seen him recently brush off the whole Manny thing?  Fuck him and his Bigelow Green Tea.  You should know better than that.

Listen guy, I don't HAVE to look for anything to hang over A-Fail's head.  His stats and behavior speak for themselves.  And I'm not even "hating" on the Yankees.  That's your last resort right there, labeling anyone that speaks against the Yankees or #13 as haters.  Pretty weak if you ask me.

Your Mattingly analogy...I didn't really care for it.  If Rodriguez was married to psycho Kim, he would be striking out 4 times every game.

Back to basketball, Kobe/Shaq had their differences in the locker room, but they kept their troubles in there and went on to play great ball.

[pilferk]

Well, the Yanks went to the World Series in 2001 and 2003.  Going by your "metrics of success" those were pretty good years.

Did they win it all?  And they didn't win a pennant in '02, right?

I'd say they were successful years, in general, but that wasn't the context of this discussion, was it?  The context was "They haven't won a pennant or WS because of A-rod".

Again, you're reaching to try to find something to apply, rather than looking at what's actualy, factually, happened.

You believe what Torre says?  I wouldn't believe him if he told me he puts his socks on first, then his shoes.  Have you seen him recently brush off the whole Manny thing?  Fuck him and his Bigelow Green Tea.  You should know better than that.

I believe what Torre says more than I believe supposition from someone who has not been in the Yankee locker room, doesn't know any Yankee players personally, and has no real authority or knowledge to judge their chemistry...yes.

Listen guy, I don't HAVE to look for anything to hang over A-Fail's head.  His stats and behavior speak for themselves.  And I'm not even "hating" on the Yankees.  That's your last resort right there, labeling anyone that speaks against the Yankees or #13 as haters.  Pretty weak if you ask me.

Yes, his stats do speak for themselves.  I'm glad you've finally come around.

As for his "behavior"....on the field, or off?  ON the field I can think of maybe 2 questionable things he's done in...what....900 games?  Off the field?  Doesn't matter.

And I don't think I labeled anyone specifically...especially not you...a Yankee hater in this round of discussions.  I said you were adopting a common "Yankee Hater" tactic because, well, you are.  But.....just to be clear...what would you call someone who constantly bashes the Yankees?  What term do you think is more apt?

As for it being a "last resort"...that's obviously untrue. If it were my last resort, I wouldn't be defending my position by making other points.  Otherwise....how could it be my "last" anything?  It IS a common figure of speech that I use....but it's not anything other than that.  It's not meant to lend anything to the point, really.  It's just an easy way to refer to the "anti-Yankee" or "anti-Arod" crowd.

Your Mattingly analogy...I didn't really care for it.  If Rodriguez was married to psycho Kim, he would be striking out 4 times every game.

Crazy Kim vs rabid fanbase calling for your head and being lynched, daily, by the local media markets?  I'm not sure there's too much of a difference.  And, FYI, during last years pressure cooker.....A-rods stats sure looked pretty good to me.

Back to basketball, Kobe/Shaq had their differences in the locker room, but they kept their troubles in there and went on to play great ball.

Did you watch them play?  The hostility, ON THE COURT, was almost palpable.  There were times Kobe wouldn't give up the rock, and that Shaq wouldn't dump the ball back out.  Left it off the court?  Are you serious?  Please......

Be that as it may.....your assertion is that the Yanks haven't done the same.  That they haven't played the best ball they can because of some ethereal magic that's missing, and that it's missing because of A-rod.    Do you have ANYTHING to support that assertion, contrary to the one made by those "in the know"?  'Cause otherwise....what I said in the last post sure seems spot on.

[D]

How many rings does A Rod have?


Thanks


I don't care if u hit 60hrs a season

if u hit 159 with 1 HR and 1 RBI in the past 3 postseasons U SUCK and are a waste of money.

Its all about the ring Pilferk.

A Rod is the KING of the meaningless stat.

If u are up 5 or down 5, A Rod will hit u that solo HR

If u are tied in the 9th or down 2 runs in the 9th, u can forget it.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Well, the Yanks went to the World Series in 2001 and 2003.  Going by your "metrics of success" those were pretty good years.

Did they win it all?  And they didn't win a pennant in '02, right?

I'd say they were successful years, in general, but that wasn't the context of this discussion, was it?  The context was "They haven't won a pennant or WS because of A-rod".

Again, you're reaching to try to find something to apply, rather than looking at what's actualy, factually, happened.

You believe what Torre says?  I wouldn't believe him if he told me he puts his socks on first, then his shoes.  Have you seen him recently brush off the whole Manny thing?  Fuck him and his Bigelow Green Tea.  You should know better than that.

I believe what Torre says more than I believe supposition from someone who has not been in the Yankee locker room, doesn't know any Yankee players personally, and has no real authority or knowledge to judge their chemistry...yes.

Listen guy, I don't HAVE to look for anything to hang over A-Fail's head.  His stats and behavior speak for themselves.  And I'm not even "hating" on the Yankees.  That's your last resort right there, labeling anyone that speaks against the Yankees or #13 as haters.  Pretty weak if you ask me.

Yes, his stats do speak for themselves.  I'm glad you've finally come around.

As for his "behavior"....on the field, or off?  ON the field I can think of maybe 2 questionable things he's done in...what....900 games?  Off the field?  Doesn't matter.

And I don't think I labeled anyone specifically...especially not you...a Yankee hater in this round of discussions.  I said you were adopting a common "Yankee Hater" tactic because, well, you are.  But.....just to be clear...what would you call someone who constantly bashes the Yankees?  What term do you think is more apt?

As for it being a "last resort"...that's obviously untrue. If it were my last resort, I wouldn't be defending my position by making other points.  Otherwise....how could it be my "last" anything?  It IS a common figure of speech that I use....but it's not anything other than that.  It's not meant to lend anything to the point, really.  It's just an easy way to refer to the "anti-Yankee" or "anti-Arod" crowd.

Your Mattingly analogy...I didn't really care for it.  If Rodriguez was married to psycho Kim, he would be striking out 4 times every game.

Crazy Kim vs rabid fanbase calling for your head and being lynched, daily, by the local media markets?  I'm not sure there's too much of a difference.  And, FYI, during last years pressure cooker.....A-rods stats sure looked pretty good to me.

Back to basketball, Kobe/Shaq had their differences in the locker room, but they kept their troubles in there and went on to play great ball.

Did you watch them play?  The hostility, ON THE COURT, was almost palpable.  There were times Kobe wouldn't give up the rock, and that Shaq wouldn't dump the ball back out.  Left in off the court?  Are you serious?  Please......

Be that as it may.....your assertion is that the Yanks haven't done the same.  That they haven't played the best ball they can because of some ethereal magic that's missing, and that it's missing because of A-rod.    Do you have ANYTHING to support that assertion to the contrary?  'Cause otherwise....what I said in the last post sure seems spot on.

Ohmagawd, are you Lonn Trost?  I'm hoping this is all one big joke, this is a joke right?

With the sweat put in by the common folk, we will bring great military and economic victories to the Soviet Union!  Father Lenin and Uncle Marx smile upon us as we struggle against the capitalist pigs!

[pilferk]

How many rings does A Rod have?

Thanks

I don't care if u hit 60hrs a season

if u hit 159 with 1 HR and 1 RBI in the past 3 postseasons U SUCK and are a waste of money.

Its all about the ring Pilferk.

Then there are an awful lot of HOF players, in lots of sports, who "suck".

It's NOT all about the ring......you might think so, and if that's your perception of baseball, or sports in general....then that's where we're going to disagree.

The ring is the ULTIMATE goal, yes.  But it's not the entire definition of success/failure.

Answer me this, D:  If they don't MAKE the postseason.....something A-rod largely contributed to....how can you judge them, then?  Because if your contention is that every player who isn't tearing it up in the post season sucks, and isn't worth their paycheck, there are an awful lot of MLB players who are being overpaid, on an awful lot of teams.

A Rod is the KING of the meaningless stat.

If u are up 5 or down 5, A Rod will hit u that solo HR

If u are tied in the 9th or down 2 runs in the 9th, u can forget it.

I've provided stats earlier in this thread, and in past threads disproving that.  Your perception is an urban legend. It's simply not true, and the stats support the fact it's not true.  I'm not going to re-wrangle them AGAIN.  Hell, WE'VE (as in, you and I) had this very discussion before and I disproved them.  What's even more amusing is that THIS season, his clutch/LIPS stats have gotten even better.

[pilferk]

Ohmagawd, are you Lonn Trost?  I'm hoping this is all one big joke, this is a joke right?

With the sweat put in by the common folk, we will bring great military and economic victories to the Soviet Union!  Father Lenin and Uncle Marx smile upon us as we struggle against the capitalist pigs!

I'll take that as a no.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I've provided stats earlier in this thread, and in past threads disproving that.  Your perception is an urban legend. It's simply not true, and the stats support the fact it's not true.  I'm not going to re-wrangle them AGAIN.  Hell, WE'VE (as in, you and I) had this very discussion before and I disproved them.  What's even more amusing is that THIS season, his clutch/LIPS stats have gotten even better.

You haven't really disproved anything.

You rattle off some meaningless numbers, churn out Yankee propaganda, nod your head in approval and go about your day.

[pilferk]

You haven't really disproved anything.

You rattle off some meaningless numbers, churn out Yankee propaganda, nod your head in approval and go about your day.

Stats are representations of fact...of history...of what's ACTUALLY occurred.  They are the ultimate in proof....hell, they're the definition of proof.  And they're not meaningless.  PERCEPTION is meaningless....because it's biased to all get out.  Are you seriously going to sit here and try to make a case that what's happened hasn't really happened, and that what you THINK has happened really has??  REALLY?

You might not understand the numbers, you might not like them, you may choose to ignore them because they refute your argument...but I got news for ya:  That doesn't change REALITY.  It just means you're choosing to ignore it or you lack the ability to grasp it.