2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[faldor]

I have to say it again: When has Roy Halladay pitched in October?  He hasn't.  And no one made a big deal about it the way some of you are (or, one of you is) with Lee.

Lee's Philly debut: 9 IP, 4 H, 1 ER.  Convinced yet?  Granted, San Francisco's offense is about as impotent as Bob Dole, but it's still a great start.

How can you say he had bad years on some good teams?  In seasons the Indians didn't make the playoffs, he was 78-40.  That's a win percentage in the .600's, coming on non-playoff teams.  Good teams?  You're kidding, right?  You mean this organization that can't find its ass with two hands and a flashlight?  The one who decided to "rebuild" in 2002 upon the crest of 6 division championships in 7 seasons and has seen the playoffs once since, choking away a 3-1 series lead?  How are those GOOD teams?  Cleveland has been shit since the Wedge-Shapiro, or Wedgiro (Lithuanian for "struggling to reach mediocrity"), regime took over.  If Mark Shapiro still has a job at the end of this season then I'm done giving them any degree of support.

Mark Shapiro is a joke of a GM.  Period.

Lee's pickup by the Phils is better than the addition of Martinez by the Sox.  But the Martinez trade was better for the Indians (if you can really pick a winner in either of those ugly-ass deals).

Per ESPN, the Jays and Rangers had agreed on a deal for Halladay but he refused to lift his NTC.

For the record I never said the Martinez deal was better than the Cliff Lee deal.  In no way, shape, or form do I believe that.  The Lee deal is far more important and has a bigger impact.

BUT, the Indians weren't always a bad team and Cliff Lee's great winning percentage was helped GREATLY by immense run support.

Last year they finished .500, not exactly an awful team.  2007 they won 97 games, the most in the majors, and he had his worst season in his career by far finishing 5-8, 6.29 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, .284 BAA.  In 2006 Cleveland finished 78-84 and Lee was 14-11, 4.40, 1.41, .278.  I'd say he got some pretty good run support that season to give him 14 wins.  In 2005 they won 93 games and Lee had his best season prior to his Cy Young campaign.  In 2004 they were a .500 team again and Lee was 14-8 with a horrible ERA and WHIP 5.43, 1.50, .268. 

So as you can clearly see, his great winning percentage had a great deal to do with his offense bailing him out time and time again.  I think there's plenty of reason to not be sold on Cliff Lee, therefore I stand by my statement.  Do I think he'll help the Phillies out?  Absolutey.  He's having a good season, switching leagues to the NL always helps.  But I'm not convinced he's an ace and I just don't think he's as good as some people make him out to be.

[pilferk]

Give Toronto Alex "the postseason choker" Rodriquez for Halladay.

Though it's far from panic time, it still might be kinda nice for the Yankees bats to have a starting pitcher who can CONSISTENTLY go more than three innings.

Yeah, right.  I gotta think you're being facetious...but just in case:

Let's ignore that, since A-rod's return, the Yanks have the best record in MLB (and you have to win games during the season to MAKE the playoffs).  And let's ignore that having A-Rod in the lineup has completely transformed Tex at the plate.  And let's ignore that, since returning, A-rod has, defensively, obliterated the guys who were (and would be) playing in his stead (Ransom or Pena).  And lets ignore that A-rod has a big fat no trade that there is no way in hell he'd waive to go to the Jays.

Let's ignore all that and concentrate on the ONE big reason that A-rod wouldn't go to Toronto for Doc:  $$$.  Toronto can't afford to pay him..at least not and field the other 8 positions with MLB talent.    That's the point, ultimately, in all this:  Toronto needs to unload Doc before he becomes a free agent because THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY WHAT HE"S WORTH!     They want to get SOMETHING for him before he becomes a free agent and leaves town so fast their heads start spinning.

Which is why I think their GM is an idiot...though on many levels I'm glad he is.  By NOT making a deal, he's lowered Doc's trade value in the off season....lower, likely, than some of the more "reasonable" deals (especially the one we've all heard was floated by the Red Sox) proposed at the deadline.  Sorry, that makes ZERO sense to me.  Why demand such a high premium, especially when it becomes apparent you're not going to get it?  There's sticking to your guns and there's irrational stubborness.

[Loaded NightraiN]

Though it's far from panic time, it still might be kinda nice for the Yankees bats to have a starting pitcher who can CONSISTENTLY go more than three innings.

Joba and Burnett have been on fire lately (Yes Burnett had 1 bad outing this weekend, show me someone who hasn't), Petite has been pretty solid, and CC will be just fine....

As long as the bullpen holds up, they'll be fine!

[GypsySoul]

Give Toronto Alex "the postseason choker" Rodriquez for Halladay.

Though it's far from panic time, it still might be kinda nice for the Yankees bats to have a starting pitcher who can CONSISTENTLY go more than three innings.

Yeah, right.  I gotta think you're being facetious...but just in case:

Let's ignore that, since A-rod's return, the Yanks have the best record in MLB (and you have to win games during the season to MAKE the playoffs).  And let's ignore that having A-Rod in the lineup has completely transformed Tex at the plate.  And let's ignore that, since returning, A-rod has, defensively, obliterated the guys who were (and would be) playing in his stead (Ransom or Pena).  And lets ignore that A-rod has a big fat no trade that there is no way in hell he'd waive to go to the Jays.

The last World Series the Yankees were in was in 2003.  A-Rod joined in 2004.
Last season was the first time in like 13 years or something that the Yankees did NOT make the playoffs AT ALL!!!
Not saying that was his fault but IMO he's a loser when it counts.

As far as that no trade clause, just have that big-tittie stripper show him where to sign. 

Let's ignore all that and concentrate on the ONE big reason that A-rod wouldn't go to Toronto for Doc:  $$$.  Toronto can't afford to pay him..at least not and field the other 8 positions with MLB talent.    That's the point, ultimately, in all this:  Toronto needs to unload Doc before he becomes a free agent because THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY WHAT HE"S WORTH!     They want to get SOMETHING for him before he becomes a free agent and leaves town so fast their heads start spinning.

Wouldn't be the first time the Yankees had to eat a good portion of someone's salary.  I'm not sure what Halladay makes but whatever the difference, if the Yankees get say a good five years out of him, IMO it's well worth it.

As long as the bullpen holds up, they'll be fine!

If they keep having to go to the bullpen in the fifth or sixth or even earlier, game after game, then they won't be fine.  The 'come from behind' wins have been awesome this season but after a while, when your pitching keeps giving up the leads you get for them, that's gotta be deflating to the bats.

[pilferk]

The last World Series the Yankees were in was in 2003.  A-Rod joined in 2004.
Last season was the first time in like 13 years or something that the Yankees did NOT make the playoffs AT ALL!!!
Not saying that was his fault but IMO he's a loser when it counts.

As far as that no trade clause, just have that big-tittie stripper show him where to sign. 

And in previous seasons...his stats were what carried the Yanks INTO the playoffs.  And last year, he had a pretty good year....you can't point to him as the problem during the regular season.  The problem last year was our rotation...or lack of one.  We were trotting out new guys it seemed like EVERY night, and a new injury cropped up weekly.  We were the walking wounded, for sure.  And that's not an excuse, it's just the way it was.

You want to say the guy has been a bust in the post season...I'm right there with you.  But you can't minimize A-rods contributions simply because you don't like the guy...which is what it seems like you're doing.  The guy is a great player and has actually been more "clutch" (the thing some Yanks fans insist has been a problem...even though his stats say otherwise) this year.  He's not going anywhere (and no matter how well endowed that stripper is...he ain't waiving his no trade.  Too much fame and money to be made in NYC).

Wouldn't be the first time the Yankees had to eat a good portion of someone's salary.  I'm not sure what Halladay makes but whatever the difference, if the Yankees get say a good five years out of him, IMO it's well worth it.

The difference, when comparing contract to contract, would be something like 180 million...180 million to lose one of the best offensive players in the game vs "renting" Doc for 1.5 seasons....and then having to try to pony up even MORE to pay Doc in free agency (assuming you want to keep him).

That's bad business, all the way around.  No team...even the Yanks with their deeper pockets...is going to make that deal.  No matter how much you might want them to.

If they keep having to go to the bullpen in the fifth or sixth or even earlier, game after game, then they won't be fine.  The 'come from behind' wins have been awesome this season but after a while, when your pitching keeps giving up the leads you get for them, that's gotta be deflating to the bats.

Joba has been giving them innings, lately.  C.C., even pitching relatively poorly yesterday, gave them 7+.  AJ, with ONE exception this past weekend, has been giving them innings of late.   I'd like to see Andy give us more...but then, he's not a spring chicken anymore.  The BIG problem is going to be whoever fills the 5 spot...Mitre right now.  We can't throw someone out there who has pitched like Mitre has his past 2 starts every 5th day.  Too short an outing, too many runs.....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Oh Pilferk, you're a riot.

[GypsySoul]

And in previous seasons...his stats were what carried the Yanks INTO the playoffs. 

The Yankees never seem to have any difficulty making it INTO the playoffs before acquiring A-Rod. 

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/history/championships.jsp

Yankees Pennants BEFORE acquiring A-Rod:
26 World Championship teams
39 American League pennant winners

Yankees Pennants AFTER acquiring A-Rod:
ZERO!!!!! NADDA!!!  NOTHIN!!! ZIPPO!!!!  ZILCH!!!




P.S.  I never say "we" or "us" when referring to the Yankees (or GNR for that matter) because I remember back-in-the-day Reggie Jackson, playing bouncer outside Studio 54, told these guys who were trying to talk their way in, that unless they actually played for the Yankees, there was no "we" between The Yankees/him and them. 

[faldor]

And in previous seasons...his stats were what carried the Yanks INTO the playoffs. 

The Yankees never seem to have any difficulty making it INTO the playoffs before acquiring A-Rod. 

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/history/championships.jsp

Yankees Pennants BEFORE acquiring A-Rod:
26 World Championship teams
39 American League pennant winners

Yankees Pennants AFTER acquiring A-Rod:
ZERO!!!!! NADDA!!!  NOTHIN!!! ZIPPO!!!!  ZILCH!!!

She's got a point!

[faldor]

Once again, you can't blame Theo Epstein for lack of effort.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/08/epstein_pursued.html?camp=localsearch:on:twit:sox

Report: Epstein pursued King Felix blockbuster
Email|Link|Comments (48) Posted by Chad Finn, Globe Staff August 3, 2009 12:57 PM
The Red Sox' trade for Victor Martinez was one of the headline-grabbing swaps at Friday's trade deadline . . . but according to a report out of Seattle this morning, that deal was nothing compared to a mega-blockbuster general manager Theo Epstein was apparently trying to pull off.

According to a blog post by Mariners beat writer Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times, conversations between the Red Sox and the Mariners about 22-year-old Seattle ace Felix Hernandez went well beyond a cursory conversation or two.

Baker writes that the Red Sox approached the Mariners about Hernandez, who is 12-4 with a 2.78 ERA this year, and offered them a list of eight prospects, from which the Mariners could take five. The list:

RHP Clay Buchholz
RHP Daniel Bard
RHP Justin Masterson
LHP Nick Hagadone
RHP Michael Bowden
LHP Felix Doubront
OF Josh Reddick
SS Yamaico Navarro

The Mariners turned that proposal down, according to Baker. But Epstein was unbowed, and contacted Padres general manager Kevin Towers to try to swing a three-way deal between the clubs.

Writes Baker:

It has since come out that Epstein and Towers were discussing a trade that would send home run slugger Adrian Gonzalez to Boston. But wait. Apparently, Epstein wants Hernandez more than anybody, even Gonzalez.
So, the three teams start discussing a possible three-way deal with Seattle that would send Gonzalez to the Mariners, along with Buchholz and a couple of other Red Sox prospects.

The Red Sox would get Hernandez.

And the Padres would get Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont and Carlos Triunfel from Seattle, along with a couple of other top Boston prospects.


Baker goes on to explain that the deal fell apart when the Mariners didn't think it would immediately benefit the franchise. But he also notes that there is a chance Hernandez could be available down the road if he doesn't sign a long-term contract with the Mariners in the next year or so. He makes $3.8 million this season and does not become eligible for free agency until 2011.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

The Mariners are a joke.

[pilferk]

Oh Pilferk, you're a riot.

Maybe so.  Plenty of A-rod and Yankee haters think so, I'm sure.

But I'm not wrong....

[pilferk]

And in previous seasons...his stats were what carried the Yanks INTO the playoffs. 

The Yankees never seem to have any difficulty making it INTO the playoffs before acquiring A-Rod. 

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/history/championships.jsp

Yankees Pennants BEFORE acquiring A-Rod:
26 World Championship teams
39 American League pennant winners

Yankees Pennants AFTER acquiring A-Rod:
ZERO!!!!! NADDA!!!  NOTHIN!!! ZIPPO!!!!  ZILCH!!!




P.S.  I never say "we" or "us" when referring to the Yankees (or GNR for that matter) because I remember back-in-the-day Reggie Jackson, playing bouncer outside Studio 54, told these guys who were trying to talk their way in, that unless they actually played for the Yankees, there was no "we" between The Yankees/him and them. 

And they've only had a problem ONE year since a-rod arrived.  Last year.  And looking at A-rods stats (.302, 35 HR's, 103 RBI, and 104 RBI's), I think you'd have a real hard time making that case that was HIS fault.  You're welcome to try....but looking at the injuries they endured, and the OTHER players who had either injury shortened (Posada, Matsui) or less productive (Cano, Melky)....it's gonna be an uphill battle proving that one.  And that's just on offense...their "rotation" was being held together with band aids and electrical tape.

On winning pennants and WS:

That's 100%  A-rod's fault?  A guy who has had 2 MVP seasons, and stellar numbers his whole time with them?  Sorry, that just defies logic.  IN additon, the Yanks MADE the playoffs in 2007 (one of his MVP seasons) mostly on A-rods back.  That's not a Yanks fan's interpretation, that's an overall sports media interpretation.

Now, look at the rotation that the Yanks have put together since A-rod has been here...and, specifically, what they've done.

Offensively, the Yanks have been more than fine...among the best (if not the best) team since A-rod arrived.

But A-rod doesn't pitch...

Surely you gotta have something more than "he's a jinx"?  Because you certainly can't point to his on the field play during the regular season (which is all I'm talking about)....so you must be inferring his PRESENCE has something to do with it?  Really?  Sorry, I don't do "voodoo" logic....

Again, you want to argue A-rod has been a post season bust...I'm right there with you.  Of course, none of the Yanks offensive machine has really produced in the post season since 2001......and neither has much of their rotation.  But you have to GET to the post season to BE a post season bust, right? 

[pilferk]

She's got a point!

Not so much, actually.  It's an application of circular logic without showing true cause and effect.

The Yanks didn't win butkiss with Mattingly playing 1st base.  Does that mean he was an AWFUL first baseman who contributed nothing to the Yanks? 

Hell no..and Yanks fans practically fall to pieces when he's mentioned.

The difference: People liked Mattingly and don't like A-rod.  It's a purely emotional reaction, not a logical or analytical one.

[faldor]

I don't think the Yanks had a payroll of 200 million when Donnie baseball was playing.  No one did, but still I'm pretty sure they weren't outspending all other teams by a wide margin back then.  Also, there's no comparison between A-Rod and Mattingly.  Alex is twenty times the player, he just chokes when it counts in October.  I'm sure he'll eventually break that trend, but until he does, you can't overlook the fact that he hits like Don Slaught in October.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

A-Rod is the Kobe of baseball.

Sure he took the Lakers to the playoffs, but they lost in the first round a few times.

Everyone blamed Kobe, even though he was winning scoring titles and breaking records.  No one cares about those things.  A-Roid can hit 74 HR's, but if they miss the postseason or lose in the LDS again, it will be all his fault.

I'll take emotion over "reason" and "analytical thinking" anyday.

[faldor]

A-Rod is the Kobe of baseball.

Sure he took the Lakers to the playoffs, but they lost in the first round a few times.

Everyone blamed Kobe, even though he was winning scoring titles and breaking records.  No one cares about those things.  A-Roid can hit 74 HR's, but if they miss the postseason or lose in the LDS again, it will be all his fault.

I'll take emotion over "reason" and "analytical thinking" anyday.

Yeah it comes with the territory.  The superstar will always get the blame, whether it's deserved or not if they continue to not win the big one.  I used to bag on Peyton Manning all the time before he won a Super Bowl, but he eventually did and now I can't really say anything bad about the guy anymore.  Same with A-Roid.  I'm sure he'll silence all his haters one day, but until that day comes I'm gonna continue to pile on while he hits below the (Ramiro) Mendoza line in the post season.

[faldor]

This doesn't have much to do with THIS season, but it's baseball related, and quite funny.  George Brett telling a hall of fame story with an interesting twist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIqrGsSBob0           

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/random-thoughts/rate-this-george-brett-shit-his-pants-remix/   

[D]

A Fraud is not Kobe


Kobe may not have won titles but he showed up and played his ass off and scored/defended etc

A Rod is hitting below 200 in the playoffs right?

[cotis]

A Fraud is not Kobe


Kobe may not have won titles but he showed up and played his ass off and scored/defended etc

A Rod is hitting below 200 in the playoffs right?

His stats for postseason...

.279 avg, 7 HR, 17 RBI, 4 SB, .361 OBP, .483 SLG.

[D]

what are his stats with the Yanks? That was what I was referring to.

23/94 244 average  4 Homeruns 9 Rbi';s

/discussion please

he ain't Kobe

last 3 postseasons: 7 for his last 44  159 average 1 HR 1 RBI

25 million don't buy what it use to.