2009 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

27 is a long ways away.

yeah about 80 days or so, give or take.

Some voodoo shit you're pulling here man...

[Loaded NightraiN]

Have a question though -- is anyone really surprised?

Nope not at all... I just want everyone exposed...

Will they really be able to keep everyone out of the HOF? I mean you cant have a .250 career hitter who was in the bigs for 4 years in there... Those will be the only ones eligible if so

[cotis]

Have a question though -- is anyone really surprised?

Nope not at all... I just want everyone exposed...

Will they really be able to keep everyone out of the HOF? I mean you cant have a .250 career hitter who was in the bigs for 4 years in there... Those will be the only ones eligible if so

A lot of HOF'ers said they won't vote for people with tainted records...and if those other 100 names or so don't get released -- wouldn't it cloud everyone elses name?

[D]

Boston should be stripped of their WS titles

[Loaded NightraiN]

A lot of HOF'ers said they won't vote for people with tainted records...and if those other 100 names or so don't get released -- wouldn't it cloud everyone elses name?

Yup, and thats the exact problem we will face!!

Boston should be stripped of their WS titles

  I agree!

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Boston should be stripped of their WS titles

NO.

You can't just erase the last 20 years as if they didn't happen.

Clean up the game and move on.

[sandman]

2008 World Champion Philadelphia Phillies....first "clean" team in the modern era of baseball.

and by the way, unbelievable trade they pulled off this week. how they managed to obtain an ace without giving up any of their top 4 prospects/young players is remarkable.

[D]

I don't know about that Sandman

Ryan Howard has lost A LOT of weight........ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[cotis]

2008 World Champion Philadelphia Phillies....first "clean" team in the modern era of baseball.

and by the way, unbelievable trade they pulled off this week. how they managed to obtain an ace without giving up any of their top 4 prospects/young players is remarkable.

That's not quite true.

According to Baseball America....

Carrasco was rated second, Marson third, Donald fourth and Knapp 10th.

So they got #2, 3, 4 and 10. That's a good deal not having to give up your #1 J.A. Happ or that other Draebek guy but I still think that's a lot.

[sandman]

2008 World Champion Philadelphia Phillies....first "clean" team in the modern era of baseball.

and by the way, unbelievable trade they pulled off this week. how they managed to obtain an ace without giving up any of their top 4 prospects/young players is remarkable.

That's not quite true.

According to Baseball America....

Carrasco was rated second, Marson third, Donald fourth and Knapp 10th.

So they got #2, 3, 4 and 10. That's a good deal not having to give up your #1 J.A. Happ or that other Draebek guy but I still think that's a lot.

that's according to Baseball America. they haven't adjusted those ratings for THIS season. a year ago some of those players were "untouchable." but it is well known that most teams (including the phils) have all but given up on Carrasco. his ERA is over 5 in AAA. Marson has declined as well and he is now projected as an average catcher with no arm, little power, and very good game management. Donald has declined as well. Knapp is 18-years-old and in single A and has a ton of potential.

the Phils top prospects right now are Drabek, Brown, Taylor, and Happ. those are the players every team wants.

read any article nationally, or locally in philly or cleveland and several are calling this deal highway robbery. 

[sandman]

I don't know about that Sandman

Ryan Howard has lost A LOT of weight........ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

nothing would surprise me. but i've seen him interviewed with his 2 brothers are they are all the same size. his brothers actually looked bigger than him.

i'm somewhat surprised there hasn't been more talk about him possibly being on steroids. he's the fastest to 200 HRs in the history of baseball.

and it's not like Howard's power came out of nowhere like that fraud Big Pussy, i mean Papi.

here's a portion of an article from ESPN that touches on this subject...

Howard has always been lumberjack large, though not as big as his older brother and not as tall as his twin. His hands and biceps and shoulders are big and thick, but so is his jiggling belly. We're strange about the things we choose to notice. In another game of size and strength, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan went from stick figures to linebackers. Them, we leave alone. Maybe we like them more.

In Howard's defense (and how did we arrive at a place where we are defending someone who hasn't ever been accused?), he has always and consistently hit the ball far, unlike the suspicious spikes we saw from the formerly flimsy during the Steroids Era. Nobody in organized baseball hit more homers in 2004 than Howard's 48 between Double- and Triple-A and the majors. "Believe it or not, there are big, strong players who get there the old-fashioned way," says A's GM Billy Beane.

[D]

I really like Ryan Howard so I hope not.

Big Papi and Sammy Sosa are the same guy. Sosa sucked for the White Sox, Papi sucked for Minnesota and then all of a sudden they become superstars

Somebody tell me Andruw Jones wasn't on steroids. Only dude to ever go from a perennial 50hr hitter to batting 187 last year.

[faldor]

2008 World Champion Philadelphia Phillies....first "clean" team in the modern era of baseball.

and by the way, unbelievable trade they pulled off this week. how they managed to obtain an ace without giving up any of their top 4 prospects/young players is remarkable.

That's not quite true.

According to Baseball America....

Carrasco was rated second, Marson third, Donald fourth and Knapp 10th.

So they got #2, 3, 4 and 10. That's a good deal not having to give up your #1 J.A. Happ or that other Draebek guy but I still think that's a lot.

that's according to Baseball America. they haven't adjusted those ratings for THIS season. a year ago some of those players were "untouchable." but it is well known that most teams (including the phils) have all but given up on Carrasco. his ERA is over 5 in AAA. Marson has declined as well and he is now projected as an average catcher with no arm, little power, and very good game management. Donald has declined as well. Knapp is 18-years-old and in single A and has a ton of potential.

the Phils top prospects right now are Drabek, Brown, Taylor, and Happ. those are the players every team wants.

read any article nationally, or locally in philly or cleveland and several are calling this deal highway robbery. 

I agree the Phils made a good deal for Lee.  They were able to hold onto their top prospects.  However, I think there's a reason for that.  Cliff Lee isn't worth top prospects.  They gave up what they should have given up.  Yes the man won the Cy Young award last season, but he was utter garbage the previous season.  He had one good season besides last year.  He's a solid #2 or #3, but he's not consistent enough to be considered at the elite ace level.  Hamels is still better, Happ may be better right now too.  So yes they made a good deal, but let's not act like Cliff Lee is Sandy Koufax.

[faldor]

I really like Ryan Howard so I hope not.

Big Papi and Sammy Sosa are the same guy. Sosa sucked for the White Sox, Papi sucked for Minnesota and then all of a sudden they become superstars

Somebody tell me Andruw Jones wasn't on steroids. Only dude to ever go from a perennial 50hr hitter to batting 187 last year.

Ortiz was never an everyday player in Minnesota, but obviously there's something to what you're saying.  Minnesota has been a pretty good judge of talent over the years, it's hard to think they missed out or didn't see something in Ortiz. 

As plenty of people have said, this should come as no surprise.  Most Sox fans (me included) have questioned Ortiz the last 2 seasons while he hasn't been quite as clutch as he once was.  My buddy called me up the day Manny got suspended and asked me to guess who got busted for steroids.  My first guess was David Ortiz.  My second was Manny.  So it's not exactly shocking news.  David seems to be taking the "it comes as a surprise to me" approach.  He may play the I'm Dominican, I didn't understand fully what I was taking or it was wrong because of the language barrier card.  I wish these guys would just suck it up and admit whatever they took and that it was wrong.  Enough of this astonishment when they get caught.

With that being said, big homer today for Ortiz even with all this going on.  Keep it going.

And enough with the, championships are now tarnished, they should be stricken from the record books talk.  EVERYBODY was doing it.  Okay maybe not everybody, but a damn good amount.  I'd be shocked if Manny and Ortiz were the ONLY ones on the Sox that were taking something illegal.  There's probably more, many more.  And that goes for ALL the teams.  Your naive to think YOUR team was clean through the steroid era.  They were all doing it, it was a level playing field.  So let's stop with the holier than though mantra's.

[D]

I was only joking about the World Series cause I hate Boston. Truth is, Yanks had cheaters as did every team.

Why don't Philly go on and trade Happ and Drabek for Halladay?

Halladay,Lee,Hamels!

WOW

[faldor]

I was only joking about the World Series cause I hate Boston. Truth is, Yanks had cheaters as did every team.

Why don't Philly go on and trade Happ and Drabek for Halladay?

Halladay,Lee,Hamels!

WOW

I know SOME people are joking about taking away the championships, but some people are also very serious.  And it's ridiculous.  I even heard them mention it on ESPN last night.  Screw mentioning it, they did a whole damn segment on it.  The usage was rampant, if anything is tarnished it's the entire era.

And the Phils do still have the chips to trade for Halladay but I think Ricciardi is asking for too much for some teams liking.  The guy is arguably the best pitcher in baseball now though, so it'd be hard to argue that it wouldn't be worth it.  I'd take him on the Red Sox in a heartbeat after watching Clay, Penny, and Smoltz in their last 3 starts.  As of last night though the talk was the Sox were more on the Victor Martinez front.  A possible 3 team deal, not sure the other team.  But the Sox would get Martinez and get rid of long time Red Sox (1 week) Adam Laroche, and some prospects I would imagine.

[faldor]

One more thing about the Ortiz thing, what's sort of being missed here since his name is new to the list, is that Manny ONCE again is linked to PED's.  Apparently he's been juicing his whole career, at least it sure appears that way.  So one of the greatest right handed hitters to ever play the game could be a complete and utter fraud.  It's really a shame too, because while I do think whatever these guys were taking DID make a difference, they still would've been great players without them.  I'd hope A-Rod and Manny are clean NOW and they both still seem completely capable of playing at a high level.  Things got out of control somewhere along the line and the numbers became astronomical, guys felt pressured to keep up with their peers at whatever cost necessary.

Hopefully we'll get some big and interesting trades today so we have something else to talk about.

[sandman]

phils could trade for Halladay, but the Jays want more than just Happ and Drabek. they want dominic brown as well. he's a 5-tool OF and he's only 21. but the phils are reluctant to give up both happ and drabek anyway.

Faldor - i disagree with you on Lee. he's a decent #1, and a great #2. how many teams have 2 SPs better than Lee?

[pilferk]

Please standby for a book-sized response from Pilferk

Nope...because it's pretty obvious it's not true.  Not the WHOLE TEAM (except Jeter).

But I'm not going to sit here and say nobody was (like many Sox fans extolled about their team, over the past couple years).  There were Yanks on that team who had, at some point, used or were using PED's....just like there were players on just about every, if not literally every, team.

It's why I DON'T consider the Sox championships tainted.  When there are people all over the league using....you can't argue the outcomes are tainted.

You CAN argue that the records set are, IMHO.

[D]

Plus, u take a great pitcher like Lee and have him switch leagues and that alone is huge because no one is use to his stuff. Look at CC last year. Came to the NL and dominated. Back to Yanks and he has been ok......def. not worth the 20 million or whatever it is they are paying him.


I agree with u guys now. Halladay is great but isn't proven in the postseason. I am an Atlanta Braves fan, so I know all about great Cy Young Pitchers *Greg Maddux* in the regular season who are horrible in the postseason.

Wasn't Drabek compared to Tom Seaver or Steve Carlton or someone really all time great? Heard some comparison and can't really remember which.