F1 - 2009 season

[jarmo]

Talking of Renault....


Can somebody explain to me how come so many think Alonso is a "brilliant car developer".

I get to hear this all through the season from the Swedish "expert" commentator. This guy often cites McLaren as evidence of Alonso's magnificent engineering knowledge.

But how come Alonso couldn't engineer a championship winning car in Renault for two seasons?

If he's so great.


Sounds like bullshit to me. Sure, some drivers are probably better at explaining how they feel driving a car, but the whole idea that one guy immediately makes the engineers design a better car is just bullshit.

You have a test ban, in addition to the fact that design of a new car starts months before the new driver even has visited the factory.

And nobody remembers how he was happy to use information from Ferrari when he was at McLaren.... 





/jarmo

[IzzyDutch]

I think most people know that Alonso is currently one of the best, ifnot the best driver of the field. A driver who has not only natural speed, but also one who can think and anticipate well during a race on moments like a Schumacher aswell as one who has good knowledge of how to develope a car. Take Felipe Massa, very fast, maybe not a huge natural talent though and certainly not a driver who can adjust and anticipate well during a race. If he's not starting from pole, it's not gonna happen for him.. Take Kimi, very fast with big natural talent, but lazy / sometimes unmotivated and who's not involved with developing the car. However he can be consistent and bring the car home when he has too. Then Lewis, huge natural talent, can think and anticipate well during a race, technical knowledge to develop the car good but sometimes makes stupid mistakes. Then Vettel, huge natural talent who can anticipate well during a race, but not consistent enough.

But both Renault and and Mclaren have mentioned Alonso's huge contribution in developing a car. They said at McLaren that during his year he alone was responsible for 4 tenths of a second making the car faster. The thing is, you gotta have the right engineers for it. McLaren and Ferrari have, Renault doesn't. Simple as that.. there have been several engineers and technical director changes for the past few years (RIP Dino Toso) but already during Alonso's 2nd DWC year he had a car which was not the best of the field anymore unlike the year before (when Renault had those excellent mass dampers). It just went downhill from that point. And I mean look at this years car, it even looks slow BMW same thing, did some good things but they screwed it up concentrating on KERS too much and too little on Aerodynamics (which also shows).

Interesting though, when asked by a reporter, both Toyota and Williams have mentioned that the reason why this year they were fast on one track and slower on the other, not consistent, was that they said that it was a driver issue, mentally, cause their cars were good. They just weren't able to pull the maximum out of it and anno 2009 you loose 10 spots on a few tenths.

[jarmo]

Take Kimi, very fast with big natural talent, but lazy / sometimes unmotivated and who's not involved with developing the car.

That's a lie.

Just because he doesn't kiss ass and take part in all the drama (hello lying to stewards, spying on others etc) doesn't make him lazy.

His job is to drive the car. That's what he does.

In the latest F1 Racing, Martin Whitmarsh was asked what pair of drivers would work the best for McLaren if he could choose any two:

Perharps the best working pairing from our drivers would have been Mika Hakkinen and Kimi Raikkonen. With them it would have worked. Both are straightforward drivers who concentrate on the driving. Special personalities but intelligent and clever and can give all the necessary feedback to their engineers, Whitmarsh says.

Yet people go on about the "no feedback" shit. People who know absolutely nothing about how Kimi works with his team/engineers!

It's obvious Kimi doesn't kiss the journalists' asses so they keep writing shit. And people buy it!


I'm not saying all drivers have the same technical knowledge, but this Alonso is an engineering phenomenon cult is kinda ridiculous.

But both Renault and and Mclaren have mentioned Alonso's huge contribution in developing a car. They said at McLaren that during his year he alone was responsible for 4 tenths of a second making the car faster. The thing is, you gotta have the right engineers for it. McLaren and Ferrari have, Renault doesn't.

Wasn't that Alonso himself who made the claim? When he was asking for special treatment within the team...


I guess this year Button was far better at developing the car than Alonso... 

It's interesting. Nobody's making claims that Button and/or Barrchello are masters at giving feedback and working with the engineers. If this had been Alonso, he had been hailed as the guy who made the car a winning one! 






/jarmo

[elmir]

Alonso is a great all rounder, he understand mechanical engineering on top of his awesome raw talent.
He whipped Schumacher's ass properly when he had the hardware.
Twice.

Kimi is exactly the same.
Perhaps he doesn't appear to be as mechanically oriented as Alonso, but he's lightning quick. When all elements align together, and he isn't nursing a hangover from a strip joint the night before...he's a fucking demon behind the wheel.

That's why Ferrari chose him first. Even Schumi said when he was retiring that he believes that the best guy out there got the gig. And he was right.

It will be a damn shame if Kimi doesn't have a drive for next year.
As a kimi fan, i will be very disappointed.

[jarmo]

As a side note, Nico Rosberg was offered a place at Imperial College, London, to read for a degree in Aerodynamics. Obviously that guy has some knowledge in the engineering field. Yet nobody mentions him as a "talented car developer" as much as Alonso..... Ironic.

It will be a damn shame if Kimi doesn't have a drive for next year.
As a kimi fan, i will be very disappointed.

All the people who say Kimi doesn't promote the sport blah blah blah must be happy if that happens.

Forget the fact that he's one of the best racers in the field. PR comes first....

In that sense a Jenson Button is valued more than a Kimi R?ikk?nen.   




By the way, anybody who thinks Alonso got to drive for Ferrari next year due to the results. Santander is Spanish, they bring a lot of money to Ferrari. They also have operations in South America (including Brazil).

In the end, the results and talent has very little to do with who races at Ferrari these days.

If Todt was still the team manager, this wouldn't have happened.....





/jarmo

[IzzyDutch]

Take Kimi, very fast with big natural talent, but lazy / sometimes unmotivated and who's not involved with developing the car.

That's a lie.

Just because he doesn't kiss ass and take part in all the drama (hello lying to stewards, spying on others etc) doesn't make him lazy.

His job is to drive the car. That's what he does.

In the latest F1 Racing, Martin Whitmarsh was asked what pair of drivers would work the best for McLaren if he could choose any two:

Perharps the best working pairing from our drivers would have been Mika Hakkinen and Kimi Raikkonen. With them it would have worked. Both are straightforward drivers who concentrate on the driving. Special personalities but intelligent and clever and can give all the necessary feedback to their engineers, Whitmarsh says.

Yet people go on about the "no feedback" shit. People who know absolutely nothing about how Kimi works with his team/engineers!

It's obvious Kimi doesn't kiss the journalists' asses so they keep writing shit. And people buy it!


I'm not saying all drivers have the same technical knowledge, but this Alonso is an engineering phenomenon cult is kinda ridiculous.

But both Renault and and Mclaren have mentioned Alonso's huge contribution in developing a car. They said at McLaren that during his year he alone was responsible for 4 tenths of a second making the car faster. The thing is, you gotta have the right engineers for it. McLaren and Ferrari have, Renault doesn't.

Wasn't that Alonso himself who made the claim? When he was asking for special treatment within the team...


I guess this year Button was far better at developing the car than Alonso... 

It's interesting. Nobody's making claims that Button and/or Barrchello are masters at giving feedback and working with the engineers. If this had been Alonso, he had been hailed as the guy who made the car a winning one! 


/jarmo

Is it also a lie when he said himself that he's lazy? And look at the last races in 2008, didn't exactly appeared to be motivated.. results also showed. But I won't go further on Kimi, obviously it's a sensitive topic with another Fin..

And it was Alonso who made the claim, backed up by both McLaren and Renault engineers (after he already left McLaren). Why is that so hard to believe?

Kimi's a good driver when he's on top of it, no doubt. I think Kimi got sacked because of his personality and mainly his salary demands. But Ferrari is stupid to have Massa drive there while it ain't even certain he's gonna be the old self again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIcleMr8sM Kimi lazy

But the guy does have humor though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx9D1mueU6Y&feature=related - What?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U386HsT-NaA&feature=related - I was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMBP1T_jw5w&feature=related - Look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6e3bDs2lgw&feature=related - * off

But the best startgrid quote is probably from David Coulthard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPlyQ9vjQGI - Thinking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi8sj98pHZQ&feature=related - Vest

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSvl4AiUt30&feature=related - Montoya (he's refering to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Un556BwmFw )

[elmir]

As a side note, Nico Rosberg was offered a place at Imperial College, London, to read for a degree in Aerodynamics. Obviously that guy has some knowledge in the engineering field. Yet nobody mentions him as a "talented car developer" as much as Alonso..... Ironic.

they do, they do....Frank Williams and Patrick Head said it numerous times, and was one of the reasons he got the job there over the other guy he tested against...(Bruno something)...who was faster than Nico, but Nico's technical knowledge was far superior.

They are (were) paying him $8.5 mil a season while he was there.
That's a hefty amount by anyone's standards, and they knew what they had with him.
If that Brawn car wasn't a one hit wonder, expect Nico to be right up front from day one next year.

Even if it was a one hit wonder, he'll whip Button's ass all over the place...on every circuit.

[IzzyDutch]

Yep.. Bruno Junqueira

[jarmo]

Is it also a lie when he said himself that he's lazy? And look at the last races in 2008, didn't exactly appeared to be motivated.. results also showed.

Please.

He's a born racer. He never had problem with being motivated.

He's not Barrichello who only hangs onto F1 to break records.


What's so bad about the last races of 2008? He finished on the podium in all three.

He took a risk and lost everything in Belgium in 2008. I guess he wasn't motivated.....  

And it was Alonso who made the claim, backed up by both McLaren and Renault engineers (after he already left McLaren). Why is that so hard to believe?

Why is it hard to believe that only one guy has exact numbers on how much he improves the cars?

This is the same guy who gets info from Ferrari and thinks they (McLaren) should try the things..

The same guy who wins a GP because his team mate is ordered to crash.... He's such a genius!

Kimi's a good driver when he's on top of it, no doubt. I think Kimi got sacked because of his personality and mainly his salary demands. But Ferrari is stupid to have Massa drive there while it ain't even certain he's gonna be the old self again.

Santander is Spanish.

Santander went to sponsor McLaren, Alonso went there.

Santander takes their money to Ferrari, what happens?

How can you keep denying this?







Nice collection of Youtube videos. What's your point? That he doesn't like answering stupid questions unlike every other driver who will smile to the camera while saying absolutely nothing important. But everybody's happy!

 





/jarmo

[IzzyDutch]

Please.

He's a born racer. He never had problem with being motivated.

He's not Barrichello who only hangs onto F1 to break records.

What's so bad about the last races of 2008? He finished on the podium in all three.

He took a risk and lost everything in Belgium in 2008. I guess he wasn't motivated.....  

You're forgetting the stupid crashes in Singapore and Monaco too, not to forget being overrun by Massa the majority of the season (who he can easily beat if he wants too). Look Kimi's a great racer, no bullshit mentality, but last year 2nd half was not great at all from him. Why do you pretend like that's not the case? Hell even Montezemolo said this year finally the old Kimi was back, joked about it last year
http://kimiraikkonennews.blogspot.com/2008/11/di-montezemolo-jocking-on-kimis.html so don't pretend Kimi's 2008 season was good ok?

This is the same guy who gets info from Ferrari and thinks they (McLaren) should try the things..

The same guy who wins a GP because his team mate is ordered to crash.... He's such a genius!

This is irrelevant, firstly because McLaren didn't copy technical stuff, they used advantage like tyre temp, balance, breaking etc. and second of all it was proven in a independent investigation on behalf of the FIA that Alonso wasn't involved with the Singapore affair. However even if the things you said were true, that's still seperated from the fact that both McLaren and Renault engineers have mentioned that Alonso has the ability to get around 4 tenths out of the car on his own. McLaren said this after Alonso had quit them on bad terms, why is it so hard to accept it? Sounds like you're frustrated because he's taking over Kimi's spot, really that's how it comes accross.

Santander is Spanish.

Santander went to sponsor McLaren, Alonso went there.

Santander takes their money to Ferrari, what happens?


How can you keep denying this?

Santander follows Alonso, not the other way around.. duh

Do you know the salary of the 2009 F1 drivers? Here it is:

Full list of F1 2009 driver salaries:

1. Kimi Raikkonen $45m
2. Lewis Hamilton $18m
3. Fernando Alonso $15m
4. Nico Rosberg $8.5m
5. Felipe Massa $8m
6. Jarno Trulli $6.5m
7. Sebastian Vettel $6m
8. Mark Webber $5.5m
9. Jenson Button $5m
10. Robert Kubica $4.5m
11. Heikki Kovalainen $3.5m
12. Nick Heidfeld $2.8m
13. Timo Glock $2m
14. Giancarlo Fisichella $1.5m
15. S?bastien Buemi $1.5m
16. Rubens Barrichello $1m
17. Jaime Alguersuari $0.5m
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi $Nil
19. Adrian Sutil $Nil
20. Romain Grosjean $Nil
21. Kazuki Nakajima $Nil

It's ridiculous! Obviously, they expected Schumi results when taking in Kimi. But when you compare his results with Massa and his salary, there's no way he's more worth of that difference between his and Massa's salary. Basically, he's earning too much and showed not enough for Ferrari. And now they're expecting Alonso to perform on Schumi level, also in ways of consistency. This is my opinion on the whole matter at least.

Besides this, Montezemolo also says this about the situation:
http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-news/alonso-will-be-better-communicator-than-kimi-di-montezemolo/



Oh and just to make clear, I am everything but a Ferrari fan.. they're my least favorite team. I like Alonso as a driver, but won't support him next year. And the Youtube vids I found funny.. so I posted them here in the F1 thread. Not a hidden agenda was meant with it.

[jarmo]

You're forgetting the stupid crashes in Singapore and Monaco too, not to forget being overrun by Massa the majority of the season

Yeah. How stupid to have an incident.

Nobody else ever has them!

Hamilton sliding off the track and parking his car in China comes to mind.... Oh right, only Kimi has stupid crashes!

(who he can easily beat if he wants too). Look Kimi's a great racer, no bullshit mentality, but last year 2nd half was not great at all from him. Why do you pretend like that's not the case? Hell even Montezemolo said this year finally the old Kimi was back, joked about it last year

How do I explain this to you?

The reason he had a tough season was in the car, not the driver.

The same theme continued this season.

The car hasn't got the grip or downforce needed.

Why do you think Hamilton had such great wet races last year? Compare to how he struggled this year.

Isn't he motivated?



The "old Kimi". 

This is irrelevant, firstly because McLaren didn't copy technical stuff, they used advantage like tyre temp, balance, breaking etc. and second of all it was proven in a independent investigation on behalf of the FIA that Alonso wasn't involved with the Singapore affair.

You believe that? 

The genius racer starts from the back of the grid with a super light car. Makes you wonder....

Did he ask his engineer why that strategy was chosen?

This is the guy who has so much understanding for every aspect of racing, but that strategy seemed reasonable? Ok.....

However even if the things you said were true, that's still seperated from the fact that both McLaren and Renault engineers have mentioned that Alonso has the ability to get around 4 tenths out of the car on his own. McLaren said this after Alonso had quit them on bad terms, why is it so hard to accept it? Sounds like you're frustrated because he's taking over Kimi's spot, really that's how it comes accross.

I don't like anybody who's happy to use all kinds of dirty tricks to get ahead.

While you post videos of Kimi being "lazy" and "pushing kids", nobody can say that he's not a fair racer.

Ferrari wasn't built around Kimi, unlike Renualt around Alonso.

Did Kimi whine about it? Did he ever try to sabotage for Massa?

No, he took it like a man and kept racing!

No crying, no stupid explanations.


I think he proved this year what he could've done last year with the right kind of management within the team.

Instead the team chose to focus on trying to give Massa a title. And he failed.

You don't win Spa four out of five times because you're not motivated!

Santander follows Alonso, not the other way around.. duh

Haha. Alonso had a contract for 2011!

Suddenly Santander makes it official that they will sponsor Ferrari starting from 2010 and what's announced next?

"Alonso is happy to join Ferrari a year earlier".

Do you know the salary of the 2009 F1 drivers? Here it is:

Yes I do.

It's ridiculous! Obviously, they expected Schumi results when taking in Kimi.

And who won their last championship in his first year? Was it Massa?

They can expect what they want.

Kimi didn't get the Schumacher treatment.

Just like Alonso didn't get it at McLaren.....

But when you compare his results with Massa and his salary, there's no way he's more worth of that difference between his and Massa's salary. Basically, he's earning too much and showed not enough for Ferrari. And now they're expecting Alonso to perform on Schumi level, also in ways of consistency. This is my opinion on the whole matter at least.

And Schumacher probably wouldn't have performed "good enough" either if he had been equal with Irvine, Barrichello and/or Massa.

It's not fair to compare a team built around one guy to something that isn't.

Kimi never had that kind of advantage.

Besides this, Montezemolo also says this about the situation:
http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-news/alonso-will-be-better-communicator-than-kimi-di-montezemolo/

What's he gonna say?

Do you honestly think the boss will say the opposite? 

Do you remember how happy McLaren and Alonso were about their partnership before it started?

Oh and just to make clear, I am everything but a Ferrari fan.. they're my least favorite team. I like Alonso as a driver, but won't support him next year.

Alonso is obviously talented.

But just like Schumacher, his reputation is tainted with shit that people tend to ignore/forget while they're busy adoring them.


While Kimi is "lazy, unmotivated, can't do shit" etc etc.





/jarmo

[Genesis]

Kimi I think is a very underrated driver. He kind of reminds me of Häkkinen and there's a reason he's called Iceman.
I liked it when he was in McLaren and I hope he races for them next season.

All this talk back and forth of 'proving' whether he is good or bad is ridiculous.
We all have our preferences as far as drivers and teams go.

Onto another F1 topic, what does everyone think of the refuelling ban? Some say it will make it exciting, but I'm kind of worried
it will do the opposite. The fuel strategies, I thought, were a crucial part of the race and without that ...

No more driving away with the fuel hose attached either (Sigh)

[jarmo]

As a side note, Nico Rosberg was offered a place at Imperial College, London, to read for a degree in Aerodynamics. Obviously that guy has some knowledge in the engineering field. Yet nobody mentions him as a "talented car developer" as much as Alonso..... Ironic.

they do, they do....Frank Williams and Patrick Head said it numerous times, and was one of the reasons he got the job there over the other guy he tested against...(Bruno something)...who was faster than Nico, but Nico's technical knowledge was far superior.

You are right.

I was talking more about journalists and such.

As you pointed out, the team knows what Nico can do.

Onto another F1 topic, what does everyone think of the refuelling ban? Some say it will make it exciting, but I'm kind of worried
it will do the opposite. The fuel strategies, I thought, were a crucial part of the race and without that ...

Wasn't the refueling added because they wanted to get rid off the "every car follows each other around the circuit like a long train for the whole race" thing?





/jarmo

[Genesis]

Wasn't the refueling added because they wanted to get rid off the "every car follows each other around the circuit like a long train for the whole race" thing?

Yeah, now it'll look like Nascar or something. I just don't see a plus side to banning refuelling.
Hopefully, they'll scrap the rule before the season starts.

[IzzyDutch]

Yeah. How stupid to have an incident.

Nobody else ever has them!

Hamilton sliding off the track and parking his car in China comes to mind.... Oh right, only Kimi has stupid crashes!

As usual you're not putting it in perspective, just a black and white view.. Hamilton did stupid stuff aswell, but it was his first year and we're talking about Kimi with his years of experience not someone else.

How do I explain this to you?
The reason he had a tough season was in the car, not the driver.
The same theme continued this season.
The car hasn't got the grip or downforce needed.
Why do you think Hamilton had such great wet races last year? Compare to how he struggled this year.
Isn't he motivated?

The "old Kimi". 

I'll explain it to you one more time, when the car is shit who's your competition? You're teammate.. and Kimi got overrun and made mistakes last year in a way and number not fitting for a World Champion. Stop blaming it on the car, the 2008 car was good enough for a Championship, this year not at all but you get counted on your performance compared to your teammate. And again why are you bringing Lewis in the picture? I'm talking about Kimi... last year was crap, up until Hungary this year Massa was the better of the two and after his accident I must say Kimi did a very good job, profiting from mistakes of others without making any himself and driving consistant.

You believe that? 

The genius racer starts from the back of the grid with a super light car. Makes you wonder....

Did he ask his engineer why that strategy was chosen?

This is the guy who has so much understanding for every aspect of racing, but that strategy seemed reasonable? Ok.....

Yes I believe that. You know why his car was light? He wanted to go for pole as Renault needed it after a hard season, as that was the goal (like we've seen this year aswell, teams who want to go for pole go light it's that easy) but appearantly you don't remember the fuel pick up problem during qualifying which made him stop on track, causing him to start from the back with a light car.

I don't like anybody who's happy to use all kinds of dirty tricks to get ahead.

While you post videos of Kimi being "lazy" and "pushing kids", nobody can say that he's not a fair racer.

Ferrari wasn't built around Kimi, unlike Renualt around Alonso.

Did Kimi whine about it? Did he ever try to sabotage for Massa?

No, he took it like a man and kept racing!

No crying, no stupid explanations.

I think he proved this year what he could've done last year with the right kind of management within the team.

Instead the team chose to focus on trying to give Massa a title. And he failed.

You don't win Spa four out of five times because you're not motivated!

Hey I don't like unfair racers either, was never a Schumi fan because of this and there are some other drivers who still use dirty tricks like Mark Webber. But when have you seen Alonso bumping someone of the track? Never.. same goes for Kimi whom I also consider a fair racer.

Last year the team concentrated on Massa because Kimi failed to hang on into the DC race! Remember Massa had a bad 2008 start, but he pulled it together and once Kimi was gone the team focussed on him, al very logical. Kimi won Spa 4 times cause he's a very good driver and likes the track, but there are more races then one Spa in a season.

Haha. Alonso had a contract for 2011!

Suddenly Santander makes it official that they will sponsor Ferrari starting from 2010 and what's announced next?

"Alonso is happy to join Ferrari a year earlier".

Yes so what's the point? Alonso has contract, sponsor follows, things change.. that's F1. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's about money. Santander gives, Kimi costs way too much in relation to his performances, so they get Alonso.

And who won their last championship in his first year? Was it Massa?

They can expect what they want.

Kimi didn't get the Schumacher treatment.

Just like Alonso didn't get it at McLaren.....

Remember though that Kimi was lucky to get it in 2007, well deserved but Lewis in his first year made to many mistakes. But the problem was not 2007, it was 2008 and early 2009 probably.

And Schumacher probably wouldn't have performed "good enough" either if he had been equal with Irvine, Barrichello and/or Massa.

It's not fair to compare a team built around one guy to something that isn't.

Kimi never had that kind of advantage.

Kimi was hailed in at Ferrari as Schumi's replacement, the team was already there build by Schumi, obviously 2007 was a good year and the team wasn't build around him then, so you're blaming Kimi's lack of performances if you call it harshly post 2007 because the team's not build around him? That's kinda easy way out..

What's he gonna say?

Do you honestly think the boss will say the opposite? 

Do you remember how happy McLaren and Alonso were about their partnership before it started?

The truth? There are teams who've let bad drivers go without putting him down, there are teams who've let drivers go and put them down hard, in this case Mr. M is kinda in between, that his lack of communication in the team ain't helping. And we all know Kimi's very communicative so yeah that seems very unlikely indeed.

Alonso is obviously talented.

But just like Schumacher, his reputation is tainted with shit that people tend to ignore/forget while they're busy adoring them.

While Kimi is "lazy, unmotivated, can't do shit" etc etc.

/jarmo

Well, have you ever thought about being a sense of truth in the lazy, unmotivated stuff? There are several sources who claim this even himself, this is not saying he's completely unmotivated but there have been periods where it seemed that way. Where smoke is there's fire.. I consider both Alonso and Kimi fair drivers, also in fights. And I don't adore Alonso, I don't have a favorite driver or anything like that I'm liking F1 in general. I don't like Ferrari's way of handling and saying things though.

But I'm gonna stop here now.. cause it's taking too much time disecting the posts And obviously we see things different so there's no point.

[jarmo]

As usual you're not putting it in perspective, just a black and white view.. Hamilton did stupid stuff aswell, but it was his first year and we're talking about Kimi with his years of experience not someone else.

He hit a wet spot in Monaco and became a passenger at that point. Not much you can do.

These things happen in racing when you race for positions. But it seems like only Kimi makes "stupid mistakes".

 

I'll explain it to you one more time, when the car is shit who's your competition? You're teammate.. and Kimi got overrun and made mistakes last year in a way and number not fitting for a World Champion. Stop blaming it on the car, the 2008 car was good enough for a Championship, this year not at all but you get counted on your performance compared to your teammate.

Oh my. Are you even aware that different drivers drive the car differently and have different preferences on how their "perfect" car is?

Just because the 2008 car suit Massa, doesn't mean it suited Kimi.


When you're not comfortable with the car, you have to make up for it. You try "too hard". Thats when you make mistakes.

For example, Button had a "monster of a car" this year. He didn't have to push the car to the extreme. His driving seemed "easy".

And again why are you bringing Lewis in the picture?

Ignore the fact that one year one guy has no problem in wet races and the next he does. Did he just become a worse driver? Not likely...

I'm talking about Kimi... last year was crap, up until Hungary this year Massa was the better of the two and after his accident I must say Kimi did a very good job, profiting from mistakes of others without making any himself and driving consistant.

2007 started of great and then until Ferrari managed to fix the car, it looked worrying.

In 2008 and 2009 they didn't manage to do that.

Massa was the better? Kimi scored the team's first points and first podium of 2009.

How often did Kimi qualify with a heavier car than Felipe?

Yes I believe that. You know why his car was light? He wanted to go for pole as Renault needed it after a hard season, as that was the goal (like we've seen this year aswell, teams who want to go for pole go light it's that easy) but appearantly you don't remember the fuel pick up problem during qualifying which made him stop on track, causing him to start from the back with a light car.

But he only drove in Q1.

If you want to drive for pole position, you need to be in Q3.

That's where you fuel your car for the race.

I know Alonso had technical problems and didn't get a time in Q2.

So how do you figure he wanted to go for the pole from straight from Q1?


I'm aware that once you make it to Q3, some prefer light cars to get higher up the grid, maybe even a pole position.

But as I said, Alonso wasn't in Q3.

Hey I don't like unfair racers either, was never a Schumi fan because of this and there are some other drivers who still use dirty tricks like Mark Webber. But when have you seen Alonso bumping someone of the track? Never.. same goes for Kimi whom I also consider a fair racer.

I guess you think his 2007 was full of "fair behavior".

Kimi won Spa 4 times cause he's a very good driver and likes the track, but there are more races then one Spa in a season.

Kimi won it because it's a real racing track which shows you who the real racers are. 

It's not one of these new go fast and brake tracks.

Yes so what's the point? Alonso has contract, sponsor follows, things change.. that's F1. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's about money. Santander gives, Kimi costs way too much in relation to his performances, so they get Alonso.

The point which you seem to miss is that Santander bought that seat for Alonso.

Nothing to do with racing....

Kimi's results in 2009 shows that it's not about the racing results.

Remember though that Kimi was lucky to get it in 2007, well deserved but Lewis in his first year made to many mistakes. But the problem was not 2007, it was 2008 and early 2009 probably.

Was Hamilton lucky in 2008?

Was Schumacher lucky in 2003? In case you forgot, Kimi was second and lost due to the reliability of his car.

Kimi was hailed in at Ferrari as Schumi's replacement, the team was already there build by Schumi, obviously 2007 was a good year and the team wasn't build around him then, so you're blaming Kimi's lack of performances if you call it harshly post 2007 because the team's not build around him? That's kinda easy way out..

That's just the truth. He won his championship without having a team built around him. Can you say the same about Schumacher's or Alonso's championships?

The truth? There are teams who've let bad drivers go without putting him down, there are teams who've let drivers go and put them down hard, in this case Mr. M is kinda in between, that his lack of communication in the team ain't helping. And we all know Kimi's very communicative so yeah that seems very unlikely indeed.

Read the Martin Whitmarsh comment again.

Well, have you ever thought about being a sense of truth in the lazy, unmotivated stuff?

When Kimi says he loves to race and his motivation has always been the same, I believe that. Instead of believing people who think they know shit but really have no idea...



The lazy unmotivated Kimi already says that he's preparing for 2010 like any other season. And that his motivation to race hasn't changed. "Racing is everything"





/jarmo

[elmir]

looks like there is trouble in paradise

BRAWN UNLIKELY TO MATCH BUTTON'S SALARY DEMANDS
Wednesday 11th November 2009


Jenson Button's contract negotiations has taken a new twist with team principal Ross Brawn suggesting they are unlikely to match his salary demands.

Newly crowned World Champion Button is looking for a big increase after taking a pay cut at the start of the year following the demise of Honda.

However, his bosses at Brawn are yet to match his demands and McLaren are reportedly ready to pounce should the negotiations end in deadlock.

Team boss Brawn, who recently stated that he is "99 per cent certain" that the Englishman will stay, hinted that they will probably offer him more freedom to negotiate his own sponsorship deals instead of giving him a contract worth more than ?6m a year.

"We can offer a higher proportion of driver freedom and that will probably be the route we will go," Brawn is quoted in The Guardian.

"Jenson has some freedom for his own endorsements but has a commitment to meet our obligations."

to me, this says one of two things:

1. Ross knows his car for next year is going to be the shits...even better than this years, and he's playing a silly game with Jenson, almost like blackmail of sorts.

2. They truly are in crap, and have absolutely no money left.

one of the two...either way (and I'm no Button fan)...i think its unfair towards Jenson, if this is true...all he wants is his salary to be returned to the way it was before Honda pulled out....not anything extravagantly out of the blue.

Mclaren are waiting in the wings, that is why Kimi didn't get an answer out of them as yet...they're waiting to see if Jense will stay or go...two british drivers...both champions...in a british team...one of them brings the nr1 with him...both easy going, both approachable...easy to market...nice to sponsors...

sounds like an ideal scenario to me.

We may still see Kimi in a Brawn next year.

[jarmo]

We may still see Kimi in a Brawn next year.

You think they can afford Kimi if they can't afford Jenson?





/jarmo

[elmir]

Yes...I think it's more a case of them not wanting to afford jenson...

[Genesis]

It will look pretty silly on their part if they refuse to pay Jenson and then hire Kimi on a higher salary.
This might just be posturing on their part to get Jenson to cut his salary.
Money wise I don't think Brawn are still out of the woods yet...