Axl again on mygnrforum: Dexter homework

[ShotgunBlues1978]

For instance when Gilby was sacked  I?m pretty sure that Axl?s   position was something like  " Here is Paul Tobias he?s gonna play with us wheter you like or not "  rather than  searching somekind of understanding with Duff and Slash .

Or maybe he got tired of waiting for the others to suggest something and said "here's a guy, let's work with him"?

All this time we've heard the "Axl brought in his friend Paul..." stories. But who did Slash or Duff suggest?




/jarmo

Bingo.  They have all complained about Paul being brought in but none of them have ever claimed that they made other suggestions that were turned down

They had moved on from Gilby long before.  Axl brought Zakk Wylde into the mix and that didn't work for Slash.  Paul had already co-written a few GnR songs, with SHadow Of Your Love and Back Off Bitch.  He is someone that Axl felt was a solid enough songwriter, which he turned out to be, he co-wrote TWAT, Prostitute, IRS and Catcher. 

Slash, Duff and Sorum all have since complained about Paul.  Not once have they mentioned other artists that they suggested to bring in and work with.  But the idea that Paul was a complete hack and had no songwriting talent has been proven wrong, and Axl's claim that Paul was brought in to help with songwriting because nobody else had other recommendations has never even been denied by the others

[Bruno Poeys]

Axl brought Zakk Wylde into the mix and that didn't work for Slash

his ego...

[Continental Drift]

For instance when Gilby was sacked  I?m pretty sure that Axl?s   position was something like  " Here is Paul Tobias he?s gonna play with us wheter you like or not "  rather than  searching somekind of understanding with Duff and Slash .

Or maybe he got tired of waiting for the others to suggest something and said "here's a guy, let's work with him"?

All this time we've heard the "Axl brought in his friend Paul..." stories. But who did Slash or Duff suggest?




/jarmo

An interesting question.

Personally I don't think it really mattered who Slash and Duff suggested by that time (i.e. 1994-96). By all accounts now- both sides (Axl v. Slash/Duff) so distrusted each other by then that whoever they brought in was automatically going to be "Axl's guy" (which was the label placed on Paul Tobias) or "Slash's and Duff's guy". I can't imagine Axl putting himself in a situation where it would have been 4 (Slash, Duff, Matt and their selected New Guy) against 1 or 2 (Dizzy). So things truly were at a "stand still" by then. The huge miscalculation that Slash (and later Duff) made IMHO was that they thought by "leaving" they could force Axl's hand into seeing things their way and inviting them back on their terms. However, it turned out that they dramatically under-estimated the strength of Axl's convictions, the sacrifices he would be willing to make and the time and effort he would expend to make sure "Guns N' Roses" carried on properly at the artistic level- even without them if need be. In retrospect, what Axl undertook and succeeded in doing (complete rebuilding of a legendary hard rock band and the successful recording and release of an album of all new material that is also a musical progression on said legendary band's previous work receiving a very warm global reception) is truly monumental- and I am sure blindsided Slash and Duff... no mater the average US sales thus far (and even this could change in 2009).

[cantrell]

For instance when Gilby was sacked  I?m pretty sure that Axl?s   position was something like  " Here is Paul Tobias he?s gonna play with us wheter you like or not "  rather than  searching somekind of understanding with Duff and Slash .

Or maybe he got tired of waiting for the others to suggest something and said "here's a guy, let's work with him"?

All this time we've heard the "Axl brought in his friend Paul..." stories. But who did Slash or Duff suggest?




/jarmo

Bingo.  They have all complained about Paul being brought in but none of them have ever claimed that they made other suggestions that were turned down

They had moved on from Gilby long before.  Axl brought Zakk Wylde into the mix and that didn't work for Slash.  Paul had already co-written a few GnR songs, with SHadow Of Your Love and Back Off Bitch.  He is someone that Axl felt was a solid enough songwriter, which he turned out to be, he co-wrote TWAT, Prostitute, IRS and Catcher. 

Slash, Duff and Sorum all have since complained about Paul.  Not once have they mentioned other artists that they suggested to bring in and work with.  But the idea that Paul was a complete hack and had no songwriting talent has been proven wrong, and Axl's claim that Paul was brought in to help with songwriting because nobody else had other recommendations has never even been denied by the others

But even if Paul has proved to be a solid songwriter ( my acknoledge to Axl for viewing the talent of this guy ),  and admiting that Slash and  Duff  did not provide any alternative ,  you are conceding that Axl  took unilateral decisions which affected the band  without consulting with anybody .
Don?t you agree that this might have caused some discontent  which leaded to further confrontations ?  Therefore it?s somehow Axl?s fault too , if he had  really wanted to keep the band united  he would have told Paul to keep a low profile  and just let him  cooperate in the songwriting process as he did in the UYI    instead of imposing him as an official member . A  rythm guitar player wasn?t really essential at that stage and   Duff was  also capable of playing guitar for the studio recording  and no tour plans were scheduled at that time  but Axl just started a "tour de force "  with this decision

[jarmo]

But even if Paul has proved to be a solid songwriter ( my acknoledge to Axl for viewing the talent of this guy ),  and admiting that Slash and  Duff  did not provide any alternative ,  you are conceding that Axl  took unilateral decisions which affected the band  without consulting with anybody .

Consulting with anybody?

How the hell do you know?

Besides, if you're trying to get something going and the rest show no interest in it, what are you gonna do?

"Consult"?


It seems like certain people weren't interested in anything GN'R related. Didn't wanna work on songs, didn't want to work with Paul etc etc.





/jarmo

[Skunk]

I think Axl was just trying to make music that lived up to the GNR standard. Feelings were hurt and we may never know the exact details of it, but i don't think he was bringing people into the band to be spiteful or something, he just thought they could help.

I would love to hear what the band sounded like with Zakk and Slash, espescially since Axl seemed to think it was cool.

[ShotgunBlues1978]

For instance when Gilby was sacked  I?m pretty sure that Axl?s   position was something like  " Here is Paul Tobias he?s gonna play with us wheter you like or not "  rather than  searching somekind of understanding with Duff and Slash .

Or maybe he got tired of waiting for the others to suggest something and said "here's a guy, let's work with him"?

All this time we've heard the "Axl brought in his friend Paul..." stories. But who did Slash or Duff suggest?




/jarmo

Bingo.  They have all complained about Paul being brought in but none of them have ever claimed that they made other suggestions that were turned down

They had moved on from Gilby long before.  Axl brought Zakk Wylde into the mix and that didn't work for Slash.  Paul had already co-written a few GnR songs, with SHadow Of Your Love and Back Off Bitch.  He is someone that Axl felt was a solid enough songwriter, which he turned out to be, he co-wrote TWAT, Prostitute, IRS and Catcher. 

Slash, Duff and Sorum all have since complained about Paul.  Not once have they mentioned other artists that they suggested to bring in and work with.  But the idea that Paul was a complete hack and had no songwriting talent has been proven wrong, and Axl's claim that Paul was brought in to help with songwriting because nobody else had other recommendations has never even been denied by the others

But even if Paul has proved to be a solid songwriter ( my acknoledge to Axl for viewing the talent of this guy ),  and admiting that Slash and  Duff  did not provide any alternative ,  you are conceding that Axl  took unilateral decisions which affected the band  without consulting with anybody .
Don?t you agree that this might have caused some discontent  which leaded to further confrontations ?  Therefore it?s somehow Axl?s fault too , if he had  really wanted to keep the band united  he would have told Paul to keep a low profile  and just let him  cooperate in the songwriting process as he did in the UYI    instead of imposing him as an official member . A  rythm guitar player wasn?t really essential at that stage and   Duff was  also capable of playing guitar for the studio recording  and no tour plans were scheduled at that time  but Axl just started a "tour de force "  with this decision

Certain situations, especially where everyone is being uncooperative and/or indecisive, call for one person to step in and say "this is what we're going to do"

I'm not going to sit here and say that Axl doesn't deserve ANY share of the blame.  Any time there is a conflict involving this many people, in a situation this volatile, everyone could/should have done something differently

But I think it's clear that the story we've been fed by Slash and the media for so many years is bullshit.  And it seems pretty clear that others in the band, particularly Slash, were intentionally uncooperative and indecisive in an attempt to gain the upper hand

[cantrell]

But even if Paul has proved to be a solid songwriter ( my acknoledge to Axl for viewing the talent of this guy ),  and admiting that Slash and  Duff  did not provide any alternative ,  you are conceding that Axl  took unilateral decisions which affected the band  without consulting with anybody .

Consulting with anybody?

How the hell do you know?

Besides, if you're trying to get something going and the rest show no interest in it, what are you gonna do?

"Consult"?


It seems like certain people weren't interested in anything GN'R related. Didn't wanna work on songs, didn't want to work with Paul etc etc.





/jarmo

Consulting ?  It seems quite logical when you are  working whitin a team or a group and you have some interest in keeping  the band together  , if not don´t blame blame the others afterwards  for feeling insulted .

How do i know it ? Maybe  he discussed this issue with Dizzy , Beta or the guy who parked his Ferrari , but you don´t need to be Sherlock Holmes to deduct their lack of agrement with the new recruitement from the fact they left the band subsequently  .

I could agree with your point that Duff and Slash were not interested in investing their time in GNR under "those circumstances"  ,  but what leaded to that point ? Why they did not "feel at home " anymore in GNR ?
Was all  this sudden lack of interest in creating new music with Axl  due to an UFO abduction or a  kick in the head ? I don´t think so,  maybe their state of mind at the time was somehow influenced by  Axl´s decisions

[victor08]

i appreciated reading that very much.

[jarmo]

Consulting ?  It seems quite logical when you are  working whitin a team or a group and you have some interest in keeping  the band together

Why did you skip my question?

Besides, if you're trying to get something going and the rest show no interest in it, what are you gonna do?

"Consult"?

What are you gonna do when the others don't offer any kind of input? Keep "consulting" or take action and make sure something happens?



You can keep twisting it around all you want. Yet you haven't provided any more facts to back up your claims.

I guess this is what happens after hearing different versions over the years. You just don't want to believe what Axl said because it's not what you've been told.

And to make yourself feel better, you have to shovel blame over on Axl.






/jarmo

[D]

Ive been going back and forth from stuff from everyone involved and I have my own beliefs on this subject. I really don't feel the need to post them because I don't want them picked apart and this and that or whatever.

People are going to believe what they want to and it really doesn't matter what anyone says.


I don't think Axl is 100 percent to blame but I also don't think Slash is 100 percent to blame either. People get too caught up in the Axl vs Slash thing but how about Izzy and Duff's sides of the story?

I think if u could take the sum of all these guys, the truth would be in there somewhere.

[tHeElEcTrIcSiNtAr]

Im leaning towards Axl version of the events. I mean, he's kept his mouth shut for so long while Slash was out there bad mouthing him in the press for over 10 years. He knew in his heart what happened and felt that he didnt need to validate any one's opinions of him or prove anything to anyone. Slash on the otherhand, needed to sell his side of the story to any buyer in the biz. It's like Slash was trying so hard to make it look like he was the good guy. Seems a little fishy to me.

[ShotgunBlues1978]

Im leaning towards Axl version of the events. I mean, he's kept his mouth shut for so long while Slash was out there bad mouthing him the press for over 10 years. He knew in his heart what happened and felt that he didnt need to validate any one's opinions of him or prove anything to anyone. Slash on the otherhand, needed to sell his side of the story to any buyer in the biz. It's like Slash was trying so hard to make it look like he was the good guy. Seems a little fishy to me.

Not to mention Slash has contradicted his own story a number of times, strictly due to his inability to keep his claims straight

[axl4ever]

I think that since of the others have backed up Slash's version of what happened it's hard for many to believe Axl at this point.  I think there was more than one person involved and many other people who said their two cents outside of the core.  It's like this basically, unless you could get everyone involved in one room and say their what their views or believes were at the time, everyone will take a side.  I'm at the point that it doesn't really matter.  Others are doing their thing and Axl's doing his so it's music being put out all around.  Be happy that there is a new GNR record along with the other music that has been put out.  The "original" GNR is not coming back and if they did by chance, it won't be for a very long time.  Let it go and enjoy.

[ecwfan]

I think Guns n Roses was like a marriage of Axl Rose & everyone. As Rose himself said he'd add something to songs , Slash , Izzy and Duff too would add things to the songs. They'd all take a song say Izzy came in with and add things to it. And it was a happy marriage. But by Illusions , Slash wasn't happy with the recording process (said it was the Guns n Roses White Album on VH1) and didn't like the recording of it. He was a good player but he didn't want his songs to be messed with. Rose himself didn't wanna give in either.

You have talented guys like a Beatles who had drifted apart. They didn't wanna give ground to anyone. And well...the process was always a giving ground deal to make great songs.

[BurningHills]

Very cool of Axl to take the time to post this.

Hopefully he drops by again sometime soon!

[sandman]

we don't know all the details. we don't know what it was like to work with Slash when he was all fucked up on drugs.

and we don't know how it feels to be part of a band that goes on late and walks off stage/cancels shows at times.

Axl may have been frustrated with Slash's drug use and lock of motivation to take the band to the next level.

Slash may have been frustrated about Axl going on late, Axl including a Manson song on the SI without the rest of the bands approval, and having Tobias play on sympathy for the devil without his consent.

[LeftToDecay]

"Slash is Antichrist because a tape exists where he plays bluesy hard- rock!!"

Telling " my side of the story" is an inaccurate thing to do by default, atleast  when story is as  long, complex and ugly as the one that tells the tale of crashing and burning of original GNR.

I believe everyone involved believes his version of the  story to be the correct one.

Find two world war II vets, one soldier from the red army and another one from u.s army. Don't stop searching til you find a fanatic all american war eagle yankee fubar guy from south and a blindly devoted Stalin worshipping ex commie from Soviet Union.
Ask them to give general description of what happened in the world between 1939-1945. They were allied, worked together against mutual enemy,had much common interests. Yet, different sides of the story get typed in red color and with exclamation marks. Different sides of the story get underlined or ignored.
The story comes off as 2 completely different versions.
Neither story is nowhere near what a self respecting historian without major agenda would ever per down as " widely accepted truth"
Yet, both vets  would prolly pass lie detection tests.

My super wild guess is that Axl wasn't a band destroying hostage taking sociopath monster Slash paints him out to be, and Slash wasn't orphanage burning powerhungry Antichrist that fires lazers from his eyes Axl paints him out to be. Maybe they were just two too different people with too different goals reacting to massive amounts of fortune and fame in too different ways.

[MrMojoRa]

I was more interested in what Axl had to say about his song writing process and the glimpses he gave us regarding future music.  The talk about Soul Monster and the part about Robin's guitar parts in the bag already for the follow-up record were my favorites.

It was nice to see that Axl is in good spirits and is confident about the Chinese Democracy material.

Other than that, I moved past the break-up of the original lineup back in the late 90's.  It was a moot pint for me come 2002- the reamergence of Guns N' Roses.  I fully embraced Velvet Revolver as well.  I can take my favvorite tracks from Contraband and Libertad and make a very listenable rock album.

On this day, December the 18th, I have in my home, in my car, and on my laptop 14 phenominal tracks that make up a record titled Chinese Democracy.  Whatever the events that led to the making and release of this record, I could care less.  Somebody could write a book which listed each problem that occurred between Axl & Slash and then report each of their personal versions of what actually happened, and it wouldn't change anything for me personally.  I'd sit here satisfied that whatever happened, it was for the better for the music that Axl and his new group of musicians created.

I can no longer pick a favorite on this record.  Each song is incredible on its own.  Each song on this record cannot be grouped with any other song in any specific category.  Some days Better is the best.  Some days Shackler......then the next it may be Street of Dreams.  It's crazy, for me anyway, but this record can tap into whatever mood I'm in and blow me away.  Some days I can hear Stinson's bass lines perfectly.  Some days it's the drums.  Different parts of this complex record jump out at me more so than other days.

To say this record is a masterpiece does no justice for it.  A new word needs to be added to the dictionary for Chinese Democracy.

For Axl to stop by and open himself up to us (we who stuck by him all these years) is beyond cool.  I think he recognizes how inspirational he is and I believe he was ready to show his appreciation.  He came here and gave his side of what has occurred.  Yes, it is his side, one side of "the truth".  I appreciate his willingness to open up to us.

The rest is history.

[Sweet]

Im so glad Axl made his statement this way, no media involved, just his words strictly directed to us the fans, of course the 'shit throwers' will always follow him everywhere, once some have heard, read and seen for years the same bullshit it could be hard to digest the true.

I think Axl didnt want his words to be 'paraphrased' so he made sure he 'talked' drectly to us.

It would be nice that if Slash, Duff or Matt have anything to say, they would say it directly to us like Axl did not 'undercover' or playing the usual media circus.