The Obama Administration thread

[D]

Do we not pay a grocery tax already?

Maybe the govt should make fruits and veggies more affordable?

In case the rich population on this forum haven't noticed, eating healthy is expensive as fuck.

It won't be long before they start locking people up for being fat.

[AxlsMainMan]

You can get like a 10 pound bag of carrots for $2..

[D]

You can get like a 10 pound bag of carrots for $2..

Fruit is expensive as hell

and guys, come off that "I am tired of paying people's medical stuff"
as if taxes would be lower if everyone were skinny.

it's all a cop out.

[Skeba]

Taxes are there because the government needs money. If taxation (??) is directed so that something good also comes out of it, such as taxing unhealthy food more, or higher taxes for cars that pollute more, it's not the worst of things in my eyes...

Eating unhealthy food and driving a hummer aren't illegal, but since they do end up costing the environment and other taxpayers in bad air quality and more health care expenses, I think it's only fair that people are encouraged to act towards the common good through taxes...

[D]

I think it crosses a fine line of discrimination though.

I just think its hypocritical when the Govt allows schools to serve the trash they serve to the youth. They play a huge role in getting kids hooked on shit.

I don't drink Soda, so I really could give a shit, but what's next? I just think the more power the govt gets to decide shit like this, the more we move away from a true democracy.

U don't like a guy driving a Hummer? Move to China

Like it or not, we have a right to drive that Hummer or eat that gallon of ice cream if we choose. I think paying a little extra is worth having the right to do so.

[Skeba]

I agree that schools should also server healthy food. And if the high fat foods are taxed more, it becomes also the better option for the schools to aquire, and this also helps the young not get hooked the crap a lot of people are used to.

I have  nothing against the guy in the hummer unless he's dick.. but then again, he is driving a hummer. It's perfectly reasonable that if a person is doing something that is quite possibly harmful for more people than himself, he should pay a bit more for it. Move to China? What? I'm quite happy here in Finland thank you. You have the rights you want, and you are now, through the taxes, paying a little extra for it. Like you said, it's worth it if you like that sort of thing.

[D]

I wasn't telling you to move to China!

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I just don't like the govt having so much power. tell me which doctor to go to, how much I should weigh etc. That isn't what this country was founded on.

Like I said back when Gas was 4 bucks a gallon

if this were Boston back in 1773, that gas would've been dumped into the harbor

We tend to let ourselves be ran over these days.

I hate dicks in Hummers also, but just like the dude who says a bunch of shit u don't agree with, it's still great they are allowed to say it.

I was at the Police Memorial in May for fallen officers and this lady was walking around our memorial cussing the cops, calling them names, Fuck them, they are this and that

but u know what? even though i was hoping she'd get hit by a bus, it was still cool she had the freedom to voice her displeasure.

[Skeba]

I know you weren't sending me to China... just a bad joke-type-a-thing..

But it's not the same thing... Saying something I don't agree with and polluting the planet everyone has to live on. If someone's actions affect his/her society in a negative way, they should pay for it... In this case, the payment happens through taxes.

I know that Americans don't like to be controlled, but I believe that even with national health care, if you have enough money, you can choose your doctor. I really don't see all these things as restricting your freedom, but more as making sure that everyone gets a certain level of basic services. Then if people can afford it, and see fit, they can go their own way and do what ever they like...

I'm not sure if I've understood your system completely, but that's how it works over here...

[jarmo]

I agree, back in 2001 we should have been there, but not now.  Who are we fighting?  What are we fighting?  Why are we fighting? 

KABUL, July 30 (Reuters) - The Taliban in Afghanistan warned on Thursday it would attempt to derail next month's presidential election, calling on Afghans to boycott the poll and urging them to "join the trenches of jihad".

http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSISL246266._CH_.2400



Does that answer your question?

Even a small country like Finland has troops there.



/jarmo

[Drew]

I know that Americans don't like to be controlled, but I believe that even with national health care, if you have enough money, you can choose your doctor. I really don't see all these things as restricting your freedom, but more as making sure that everyone gets a certain level of basic services. Then if people can afford it, and see fit, they can go their own way and do what ever they like....

No, not if the Democrat nut-jobs get their way. They want to make individual private medical insurance illegal.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

[freedom78]

I know that Americans don't like to be controlled, but I believe that even with national health care, if you have enough money, you can choose your doctor. I really don't see all these things as restricting your freedom, but more as making sure that everyone gets a certain level of basic services. Then if people can afford it, and see fit, they can go their own way and do what ever they like....

No, not if the Democrat nut-jobs get their way. They want to make individual private medical insurance illegal.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

Not true, but I suppose that's what you get from a one page article that uses one paragraph to define a thousand page bill.

Here's the truth, for those who are interested.  Here's the bill in question: http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf .  Drew's point of contention is on page 16. 

(1) First, there would be no forced changes for five years.  Far too generous to an industry that fucks people over, but whatever. 

(2) Second, this grace period is not the period in which all private insurance will die, but a period in which it must improve to meet minimum standards.  (p. 17)

(3) So what does change?  If you have individually bought or employer provided insurance that, after five years, fails to meet certain standards, your insurance company will be required to offer you a better plan.  This is an interesting point, as it would be impossible to offer such a plan if it were illegal, yet the bill clearly states that a better plan must be offered.

(4) Alternatively, if you want something different, this will provide for an insurance exchange, which will be a highly regulated market of insurance that meets certain standards.  This will be primarily for those without employer-based insurance.  Additionally, the exchange will consist of regulated private plans.  Hardly something that could occur if such plans were "illegal".

Anyway, the entire point of this bill is NOT to make private insurance illegal.  It does no such thing.  Rather, it is designed to improve insurance standards.  In my opinion, it doesn't go nearly far enough.  On healthcare I'm probably about as liberal as you can get, and I'm not jumping for joy about this plan.  It's an improvement but could go much further.

Like it or not, we have a right to drive that Hummer or eat that gallon of ice cream if we choose. I think paying a little extra is worth having the right to do so.

What am I missing here?  You're against a tax but willing to pay more? 

Also, if we added such a tax to ice cream (to continue your example), the cost of ice cream would likely go down a little.  If we assume that the costs of ice cream are where those supply and demand lines meet, then an added tax would decrease demand, failing to maximize profits, so the pre-tax cost would drop (roughly the same amount as the tax would add on) to meet that profit maximization.  I suppose they might pass the costs on to you, entirely, but that would lose them some amount of business.

Do we not pay a grocery tax already?

Maybe the govt should make fruits and veggies more affordable?

In case the rich population on this forum haven't noticed, eating healthy is expensive as fuck.

It won't be long before they start locking people up for being fat.

Actually, there isn't tax on most food products in most states and, where there is a food sales tax, it's often lower than the regular sales tax ( http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/sales.html ).  But that's done by state, rather than by Congress.  If I remember correctly, you live in Tennessee?  From what I found, that state has the highest food tax in the country.  As most states consider grocery bought food to be a necessity, they cut those taxes to 0% to help people out.  Tennessee, apparently, hasn't caught on.   

And yes, eating healthy is expensive.  One of the many reasons we're a fat country.

[sandman]

i don't know what to think of obama at this point. it's still early.

- i'm glad he didn't haphazardly remove troops, as he appears to be staying on the offensive. in that regard, he's very much like bush. apparently citizens in other countries like us more, although not sure how that effects my life.

- i wasn't a fan of the stimulus package. but i'm willing to wait and see if there are some benefits.

- i don't like what i'm hearing regarding cap and trade and healthcare, but until something is passed i'm not gonna criticize him for it.

what other appomplishments does he have thus far? 

[Smoking Guns]

I agree, back in 2001 we should have been there, but not now.  Who are we fighting?  What are we fighting?  Why are we fighting? 

KABUL, July 30 (Reuters) - The Taliban in Afghanistan warned on Thursday it would attempt to derail next month's presidential election, calling on Afghans to boycott the poll and urging them to "join the trenches of jihad".

http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSISL246266._CH_.2400



Does that answer your question?

Even a small country like Finland has troops there.



/jarmo

What Arab country doesn't this happen in???

Look at Iran, they rigged their elections, should we invade Iran too?  War is GOOD for the economy Jarmo.  See through the BS please sir.  Surely you know this.

[norway]

I just think its hypocritical when the Govt allows schools to serve the trash they serve to the youth. They play a huge role in getting kids hooked on shit.

Yep, or aging people making being fat a trend thing.
Aging gracefully is cool, but one has to be wise enough to tell what message is being sent.

In Norway it's not allowed to smoke in public building, including bars, pubs, discos etc.

And many places in Europe it's not allowed to sell sodas, chocolate and so on at the schools.

It's not telling what people can and can not eat-
-it's about sending a message and turning around the mechanisms of peer-pressure.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I know that Americans don't like to be controlled, but I believe that even with national health care, if you have enough money, you can choose your doctor. I really don't see all these things as restricting your freedom, but more as making sure that everyone gets a certain level of basic services. Then if people can afford it, and see fit, they can go their own way and do what ever they like....

No, not if the Democrat nut-jobs get their way. They want to make individual private medical insurance illegal.

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=332548165656854

Not true, but I suppose that's what you get from a one page article that uses one paragraph to define a thousand page bill.

Here's the truth, for those who are interested.  Here's the bill in question: http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf .  Drew's point of contention is on page 16. 

(1) First, there would be no forced changes for five years.  Far too generous to an industry that fucks people over, but whatever. 

(2) Second, this grace period is not the period in which all private insurance will die, but a period in which it must improve to meet minimum standards.  (p. 17)

(3) So what does change?  If you have individually bought or employer provided insurance that, after five years, fails to meet certain standards, your insurance company will be required to offer you a better plan.  This is an interesting point, as it would be impossible to offer such a plan if it were illegal, yet the bill clearly states that a better plan must be offered.

(4) Alternatively, if you want something different, this will provide for an insurance exchange, which will be a highly regulated market of insurance that meets certain standards.  This will be primarily for those without employer-based insurance.  Additionally, the exchange will consist of regulated private plans.  Hardly something that could occur if such plans were "illegal".

Anyway, the entire point of this bill is NOT to make private insurance illegal.  It does no such thing.  Rather, it is designed to improve insurance standards.  In my opinion, it doesn't go nearly far enough.  On healthcare I'm probably about as liberal as you can get, and I'm not jumping for joy about this plan.  It's an improvement but could go much further.

Like it or not, we have a right to drive that Hummer or eat that gallon of ice cream if we choose. I think paying a little extra is worth having the right to do so.

What am I missing here?  You're against a tax but willing to pay more? 

Also, if we added such a tax to ice cream (to continue your example), the cost of ice cream would likely go down a little.  If we assume that the costs of ice cream are where those supply and demand lines meet, then an added tax would decrease demand, failing to maximize profits, so the pre-tax cost would drop (roughly the same amount as the tax would add on) to meet that profit maximization.  I suppose they might pass the costs on to you, entirely, but that would lose them some amount of business.

Do we not pay a grocery tax already?

Maybe the govt should make fruits and veggies more affordable?

In case the rich population on this forum haven't noticed, eating healthy is expensive as fuck.

It won't be long before they start locking people up for being fat.

Actually, there isn't tax on most food products in most states and, where there is a food sales tax, it's often lower than the regular sales tax ( http://www.taxadmin.org/FTA/rate/sales.html ).  But that's done by state, rather than by Congress.  If I remember correctly, you live in Tennessee?  From what I found, that state has the highest food tax in the country.  As most states consider grocery bought food to be a necessity, they cut those taxes to 0% to help people out.  Tennessee, apparently, hasn't caught on.   

And yes, eating healthy is expensive.  One of the many reasons we're a fat country.

Hey Drew, I'd love to hear your response to Freedom's post...let's hear something before we declare you've been owned!  btw, we're cool.  I'm sure you're big enough to admit you were wrong.   

D, "Nazi shit..."  Really?  Taxing soft drinks is "Nazi shit?"  Seriously, lighten up.  Fat people aren't being thrown in jail!................yet.    

Liberals have been trying for years to get shitty food out of public school cafeterias...but the conservatives like to throw around, "free market!  capitalism!  we supply what's demanded!" and schools are left with quickie shit-food...with Coke and Pepsi machines in the fucking schools.  Hell, my old high school had either Coke or Pepsi build them a football stadium.  Turf, huge bleachers, the works!  All the school had to do was sign the papers, and yeah, they made the deal with the devil.  Niiice. 

D, do you understand that obesity is not efficient?  Obesity costs each and every one of us money!  Lots of it!  Fuck, I'd GIVE basketballs out for free if I knew lazy people would get up off their asses and move.  Sprained ankles are not tapping the healthcare system...diabetes and the long list of diseases brought on by obesity are.  I believe I asked you a question earlier about smoking.  Do you beleive it is right for the government to tax the hell out of cigarettes?  How can you argue with that?
And by the way, I'm all for listening to any ideas that could make healthy food more affordable.  It is possible to eat healthy and affordably, my family does it.  It's not easy for the majority of citizens though, and that's a problem.   

S Guns, you do understand the people who orchestrated 9-11 are in Afghanistan/Pakistan, correct?  You also understand Al Qaeda was stronger by the end of Bush's reign than they were on 9-11, correct?  Why would you turn tail and run?  We need the world to work together to fight these fucks.  It's not "U.S. against them," it's, "US (as in the whole world) against them."  We need the Muslim world on our side.  Iraq was the wrong war and a lot of folks knew it...unfortunately those in charge didn't. 

[Drew]

Hey Drew, I'd love to hear your response to Freedom's post...let's hear something before we declare you've been owned!  btw, we're cool.  I'm sure you're big enough to admit you were wrong.   

Never had a problem admitting when I was wrong as I see I am in this case.

I do have my suspicions of what constitutes as a "better plan" though. Once again, a government bureaucrat will be involved I'm sure in deciding what is best for an individual. Government will not even be able to pay for this monstrosity, much less operate the system without rationing health care in the long run. Look at what a mess government controlled Medicare and Medicaid is in right now but somehow people think that this new health care plan will work so wonderfully. It's amazing that the government actually believes a health care overhaul would decrease the expanding long-term health costs.

[jarmo]

What Arab country doesn't this happen in???

Look at Iran, they rigged their elections, should we invade Iran too?  War is GOOD for the economy Jarmo.  See through the BS please sir.  Surely you know this.

How quickly you forget.

These are the same guys who attacked you a few years ago. Remember?

They are the reason you guys started the War On Terror.

You got sidetracked and forgot what started it all.


It's this kind of extremists that are the root of the problems.


I'm amused at seeing you being so against the wars all of a sudden.

Wonder if you'd said these things a few years ago....





/jarmo

[Smoking Guns]

What Arab country doesn't this happen in???

Look at Iran, they rigged their elections, should we invade Iran too?  War is GOOD for the economy Jarmo.  See through the BS please sir.  Surely you know this.

How quickly you forget.

These are the same guys who attacked you a few years ago. Remember?

They are the reason you guys started the War On Terror.

You got sidetracked and forgot what started it all.


It's this kind of extremists that are the root of the problems.


I'm amused at seeing you being so against the wars all of a sudden.

Wonder if you'd said these things a few years ago....





/jarmo

Jarmo, you are wrong, again.  I told you we should have been there, but it was poor strategy.  We should have just sent in small teams with expert snipers and picked them away and leveled the Taliban and got out.  That was in 2001.  WE ARE NOW IN 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I bet we have killed almost all the original terrorists from that era, now we are fighting new recruits.  I think after 8 years out military needs a break.  That is all.  This enemy has no name or face or anything.  The president says the same things George Bush said about our fight there (and you hate George Bush).  Its a cause worth fighting, but, at what cost?  Send in the seals, take care of business, then get out.

[jarmo]

Jarmo, you are wrong, again.  I told you we should have been there, but it was poor strategy.  We should have just sent in small teams with expert snipers and picked them away and leveled the Taliban and got out.  That was in 2001.  WE ARE NOW IN 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I bet we have killed almost all the original terrorists from that era, now we are fighting new recruits.  I think after 8 years out military needs a break.  That is all.  This enemy has no name or face or anything.  The president says the same things George Bush said about our fight there (and you hate George Bush).  Its a cause worth fighting, but, at what cost?  Send in the seals, take care of business, then get out.

It's funny how you focus on Afghanistan and how it's become a mistake when the biggest mistake is in another country....

Shouldn't you be cleaning up that mess first and keep the forces where they were supposed to be int he first place?



The military needs a break? Where were you saying that when Bush wanted to invade Iraq?

I'm sure many of the men and women in the military do deserve to go home. But Afghanistan wasn't the mistake, Iraq was.

This enemy has no name or face or anything.

That's comedy.

So I guess it's better to make up an enemy (Saddam Hussein) compared to fighting a faceless one?

Although the guy was an evil dictator, he had nothing to do with the war on terror...... Unlike the Talibans.








/jarmo

[freedom78]

What Arab country doesn't this happen in???

Look at Iran, they rigged their elections, should we invade Iran too?  War is GOOD for the economy Jarmo.  See through the BS please sir.  Surely you know this.

How quickly you forget.

These are the same guys who attacked you a few years ago. Remember?

They are the reason you guys started the War On Terror.

You got sidetracked and forgot what started it all.


It's this kind of extremists that are the root of the problems.


I'm amused at seeing you being so against the wars all of a sudden.

Wonder if you'd said these things a few years ago....





/jarmo

Jarmo, you are wrong, again.  I told you we should have been there, but it was poor strategy.  We should have just sent in small teams with expert snipers and picked them away and leveled the Taliban and got out.  That was in 2001.  WE ARE NOW IN 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I bet we have killed almost all the original terrorists from that era, now we are fighting new recruits.  I think after 8 years out military needs a break.  That is all.  This enemy has no name or face or anything.  The president says the same things George Bush said about our fight there (and you hate George Bush).  Its a cause worth fighting, but, at what cost?  Send in the seals, take care of business, then get out.

I see your point, and it has some merit.  Seems to me that what might be at the heart of your argument is that we combined a military operation (decapitate the Taliban/Al Qaeda) with nation building (making Afghanistan a democracy...when it's about the toughest place for a democracy to work). 

If there's one thing our recent misadventures have proven, it's that democracy cannot be imposed, even on people who may want it.  Among other things, it is the act of throwing off tyranny and creating a democracy that builds faith in it as a process and tempers a belief that it's good, even if your side doesn't win.