The Obama Administration thread

[jarmo]

How about putting America first for once and forget about how the rest of the world perceives us? 

I thought eight years of Bush & Cheney was just that....


No matter how you twist it, you're part of this planet. The USA isn't its own little planet.

You want to be like North Korea and pretend nothing exists outside your borders?


Obama is a socialist? Please.

Maybe you need to study what socialism is before you start throwing the word around.

It's the same with all the morons who use the word "nazi" while they have no fucking clue about what it represents.


First you go on defending the government helping out the financial sector (socialism?) and then attack Obama for being a socialist.

You want to eat the cake and have it.

In a sense, government involvement in possibly the most capitalistic of all sectors (finance) is great! Isn't that as socialist as you can get?  


Until Obama takes over all the privately owned corporations and makes them into state owned corporations. And also makes all the farms state owned, all universities, hospitals, phone companies etc., then you have a point....







/jarmo

[Smoking Guns]

How about putting America first for once and forget about how the rest of the world perceives us? 

I thought eight years of Bush & Cheney was just that....


No matter how you twist it, you're part of this planet. The USA isn't its own little planet.

You want to be like North Korea and pretend nothing exists outside your borders?


Obama is a socialist? Please.

Maybe you need to study what socialism is before you start throwing the word around.

It's the same with all the morons who use the word "nazi" while they have no fucking clue about what it represents.


First you go on defending the government helping out the financial sector (socialism?) and then attack Obama for being a socialist.

You want to eat the cake and have it.

In a sense, government involvement in possibly the most capitalistic of all sectors (finance) is great! Isn't that as socialist as you can get?  


Until Obama takes over all the privately owned corporations and makes them into state owned corporations. And also makes all the farms state owned, all universities, hospitals, phone companies etc., then you have a point....







/jarmo

Jarmo, we pretty much took over GM, he fired their CEO and hand picked his replacement.  GM failed.  Ford, who was in a similar state, took no money from the GOV'T and they turned it around. 

In the US, we play by one set of rules and the rest of the world plays by a different set.  We try to compete with China, who subsidizes everything.  We can't compete with them.  We can only have fair trade if everyone followed the same set of rules.  In America we are trying to go Green, while China, India, and Russia have no regard for the environment.  Guess what, their pollution effects us too.

[jarmo]

Jarmo, we pretty much took over GM, he fired their CEO and hand picked his replacement.  GM failed.  Ford, who was in a similar state, took no money from the GOV'T and they turned it around. 

That CEO should've been fired.... 


GM failed? Aren't they paying back the loans earlier than planned? And they don't want to sell the European part of their operations as planned.... I guess they realized most of the R&D is done in Germany so it would be difficult to build new models in the US if they sell off the European part.... 

In the US, we play by one set of rules and the rest of the world plays by a different set.  We try to compete with China, who subsidizes everything.  We can't compete with them.  We can only have fair trade if everyone followed the same set of rules.  In America we are trying to go Green, while China, India, and Russia have no regard for the environment.  Guess what, their pollution effects us too.

Of course.

But I don't think the solution is more isolation....




/jarmo

[Smoking Guns]

Jarmo, we pretty much took over GM, he fired their CEO and hand picked his replacement.  GM failed.  Ford, who was in a similar state, took no money from the GOV'T and they turned it around. 

That CEO should've been fired.... 


GM failed? Aren't they paying back the loans earlier than planned? And they don't want to sell the European part of their operations as planned.... I guess they realized most of the R&D is done in Germany so it would be difficult to build new models in the US if they sell off the European part.... 

In the US, we play by one set of rules and the rest of the world plays by a different set.  We try to compete with China, who subsidizes everything.  We can't compete with them.  We can only have fair trade if everyone followed the same set of rules.  In America we are trying to go Green, while China, India, and Russia have no regard for the environment.  Guess what, their pollution effects us too.

Of course.

But I don't think the solution is more isolation....




/jarmo

No, but we need to have incentives to keep jobs in the US and not outsources them to Mexico, China, and India.  Reward companies for keeping their factories in the US.  Lower their Tax Rate which is why they are leaving to begin with.

[1987]

[/quote]

 while i certainly don't agree with the government interfering with buisiness.. it was a nessesary interventions. 
[/quote]

i'm pretty sure i made it clear that i didn't support the banks bail out.. but i can logically understand it. 

"socialism

An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists."

The government owns a major stake in Citi, BOFA, GM.. not to mention the healthcare bill.. where the government actually plans on being a provider.. finanaced by our never ending tax dollars..  Maybe you are the one who needs to study what is happening in the US before being another moron that has no idea what is really being proposed.. 

i agree about the war.. the issue is the US and her allies have to fight by all of these rules of engagement while the enemy will send a kid with downsyndrome to blow up a check point...   you can't just let them be though.. what did the US do to deserve 9/11?  you let these animals be.. and they will just plan another attack.. the only thing these savages understand is violence.. i would rather the UN grows a set of balls and actually do something.. but they are about as useless as an apendix

[Smoking Guns]

If we are going to be in a war, treat it like a war and try to win it.  If the general says he needs more troops, give him the troops and accomplish the mission.

[1987]

If we are going to be in a war, treat it like a war and try to win it.  If the general says he needs more troops, give him the troops and accomplish the mission.

i agree 100%  the current situation is the worst case.. our poor troops are being asked to fight a war. .. but not given the means to win it.  maybe obama should ask himself.. what would truman do?

[jarmo]

If the USA is such a socialist state, what does that make North Korea? The old Soviet Union?






/jarmo

[1987]

i thought north korea was comunist..   The US isn't a socialist nation..but the polocies of this administration are certainly leaning towards socialism...  get rid of all of this government funded bull shit.. set the tax rate a trim 20% and let free markets run its course.. if a person stopped getting a check from the government every week.. they would get off their ass and get a job.  the only people who should get anything from the governement (money that I earned but had to give to the government in taxes)  should be people under 18 without a legal guradian or someone with a disability.  and obesity or illness caused from drinking or drugs does not count as a disability.  any funds that are given out should be in a form a debit card that can only be used for certain things such as food, utilites ect.. i'm not funding someone's drinking habits... 

[Smoking Guns]

i thought north korea was comunist..   The US isn't a socialist nation..but the polocies of this administration are certainly leaning towards socialism...  get rid of all of this government funded bull shit.. set the tax rate a trim 20% and let free markets run its course.. if a person stopped getting a check from the government every week.. they would get off their ass and get a job.  the only people who should get anything from the governement (money that I earned but had to give to the government in taxes)  should be people under 18 without a legal guradian or someone with a disability.  and obesity or illness caused from drinking or drugs does not count as a disability.  any funds that are given out should be in a form a debit card that can only be used for certain things such as food, utilites ect.. i'm not funding someone's drinking habits... 

1987, one thing that is good and paid in by the tax payer is unemployment checks.. People lose their jobs, it helps till they find another.  You do pay into that fund, so in a way you are just getting your money back anyway, but I don't mind helping someone out in a situation like that.  But I am against the life long bottom feeders.

[jarmo]

Fair enough. "Leaning towards socialism".

So would it be fair to say some other unnamed presidents have been "leaning towards fascism"?

 


I mean, assuming Obama is left of the middle, anything on the right of the middle must be leaning towards fascism. Right?



/jarmo

[Smoking Guns]

Fair enough. "Leaning towards socialism".

So would it be fair to say some other unnamed presidents have been "leaning towards fascism"?

 


I mean, assuming Obama is left of the middle, anything on the right of the middle must be leaning towards fascism. Right?



/jarmo

Jesus Jarmo, stop talking about the past... We know Bush fucked some shit up, does it make it okay for Obama to equally fuck shit up?  Lets talk about what he is doing.....

[jarmo]

Maybe if you didn't live in the USA and you actually had seen socialism around you, you'd object a bit to those who throw the word around just because they don't have anything better to say.

I live in a country that's way more socialist than the USA will ever be.

I guess that makes us communists! 



/jarmo

[Groghan]

Jarmo - and I mean no offense by this, as I know this is your site, I'm just making an observation . . . .you seem like a very intelligent guy, and you seem very passionate about politics, and you do seem to know a lot about what is going on in the world. But most of your responses seem to always have a smart-alec comment in them.  Is that just your sense of humor? I haven't posted a lot at this forum, so I'm not really sure how to take your posts.

I like that there are some passionate people on here concerning politics. It is nice to read opinions from all sides.

Especially if people will just attack the "issue" and topic, and not make personal attacks on the person making the posts (unless they are a complete jackass or troll).
 

[freedom78]

The government owns a major stake in Citi, BOFA, GM..

I found a nifty chart of the percentage of corporate America owned by the US government.



For those not familiar with scientific notation, the 5.07E-02 equates to 0.0507% or 1/20th of 1%.  Be.  Very.  Afraid.

If we are going to be in a war, treat it like a war and try to win it.  If the general says he needs more troops, give him the troops and accomplish the mission.

I agree with this...the real question has to be one of "what is the mission?"  If we stick with the silly neo-con idea of spreading peace by imposing democracy, we'll be in Afghanistan for decades more. 

i agree 100%  the current situation is the worst case.. our poor troops are being asked to fight a war. .. but not given the means to win it.  maybe obama should ask himself.. what would truman do?

Are you suggesting that we use the bomb of Afghanistan/Pakistan?

what did the US do to deserve 9/11? 

Nothing deserves an attack against civilians.  But the "causes" of 9/11 are largely the occupation of the Middle East (bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc.), our pro-Israeli bias, and our support for tyrannical regimes in Muslim countries.  I'm not going to argue about the validity of these "causes" because it simply doesn't matter.  Al Qaeda sees them as valid and is willing to act on them and that's really all that matters.

However, a secondary cause that underlies all of this is the size and scope of the US military.  When you have a large military (and an enormous defense industry) you use it.  We know that conflict is likely in the Mid-East, so we put troops there on a semi-permanent basis.  This, then, becomes a cause of aggression against us.  And, because of aggression against us, we then need that military.  It's an unending circle.  Everywhere you find foreign troops you will find increased hostility toward other countries.  There are protests against US presence in Japan and South Korea, for example, even if they do not turn to terrorism. 

The Romans had a similar problem.  They'd expand, thus gaining greater security for the territories they held that had the advantage of a buffer of border provinces.  But, then, their presence in those border provinces would spark insurrection from the local population and a risk of invasion from still further provinces.  So occupy and expand.  Again and again.  And, finally, they fell apart.  In our goal of controlling every little thing that could possibly affect us, we've been spread very thin.  From dealing with FARC in Colombia, to stationing troops in the Middle East, Far East, and Europe, to fighting two wars against non-state entities that can't even "surrender" in traditional terms, we are very, very thin. 

i would rather the UN grows a set of balls and actually do something.. but they are about as useless as an apendix

The UN is the most ineffective organization in the history of international relations.  It's not about them growing balls...it's about the US, China, Russia, France, and the UK all having balls about the same issue, simultaneously, and agreeing about how to handle it.  Thus, given the obvious friction between those states, we can understand the extent to which the UN is ineffective. 

But I am against the life long bottom feeders.

And this argument would make sense to me IF we truly gave people equal opportunities in this country.  Unfortunately, if you're born black and in the inner city, your chances of being successful are markedly less than average.  Bring inner city/rural schools up to par (and then improve all schools) and you'll have a much more accurate conception of who the bottom feeders truly are.  As it is, many of our "bottom feeders" are people who found themselves in a largely untenable situation.   

if a person stopped getting a check from the government every week.. they would get off their ass and get a job. 

Yes, because there's just a wealth of high paying jobs out there, if only the lazy and indigent would take them, right?  Economies are meant to operate with unemployment, because full employment means that there are jobs that need doing that aren't being done.  The idea that everyone on unemployment or welfare is simply lazy is just another myth created by the right about a class of people they blame for all our troubles.

[Smoking Guns]

Freedom, good point on the "bottom feeders", but there are people that take advantage of the system, they are the ones that need to get the boot.  Good post, you, 1987, and I all kind of feel the same way and none of the items we listed are really republican or democrat.  When SG, Freedom, and 1987 all agree? 

I don't know what our mission is over there Freedom.  And obviously its not just a neo con idea...  The defense contractors must be in EVERYONE'S pocket.  I thought we first went there to kill Osama and his men.. Now we want to spread democracy?  There is no oil there..  Just goats and heroin.  I like doing the noble thing, but many countries need democracy, and did we truly finish in Iraq?  What about Vietnam?  Couldn't we do more there as well?  I am not a quitter or anit - war.  But fighting a war with not enough troops and a hazy objective just sounds really wrong to me and to hear that our troops are fighting for you and me is beginning to sound like a load of bolagna. 

[freedom78]

Freedom, good point on the "bottom feeders", but there are people that take advantage of the system, they are the ones that need to get the boot.  Good post, you, 1987, and I all kind of feel the same way and none of the items we listed are really republican or democrat.  When SG, Freedom, and 1987 all agree? 

I don't know what our mission is over there Freedom.  And obviously its not just a neo con idea...  The defense contractors must be in EVERYONE'S pocket.  I thought we first went there to kill Osama and his men.. Now we want to spread democracy?  There is no oil there..  Just goats and heroin.  I like doing the noble thing, but many countries need democracy, and did we truly finish in Iraq?  What about Vietnam?  Couldn't we do more there as well?  I am not a quitter or anit - war.  But fighting a war with not enough troops and a hazy objective just sounds really wrong to me and to hear that our troops are fighting for you and me is beginning to sound like a load of bolagna. 

Oh, there's no question that there are those who exploit the system.  I'd suggest that that would happen, though, with any system, governmental or otherwise.  For example, in discussing this current health care reform issue, I've heard numerous arguments about getting the fraud out of medicare and medicaid BEFORE we do anything else (i.e. "let's create a nearly impossible task, so that we never really do anything").  While I'm all for getting rid of fraud, there is PLENTY of insurance fraud taking place with privately owned companies as well, yet I see no arguments that that's a valid reason to eliminate insurance companies.  There will be those trying to game the system whether it's public or private.

As for our mission, I only meant that the "spread democracy" is a neo con idea.  Check out Francis Fukuyama, a big neo-con thinker.  He believes that liberal democracy (Euro definition of liberal...not "left wing") is the end of the evolution of the nation state and this ties in with another big idea that a lot of neo-cons have bought in to, the Democratic Peace Theory, which postulates that Democracies do not go to war with other democracies.  This has been taken by neo cons to mean that you can violently invade, impose democracy, and this is the path to peace between states. 

You can add this to our belief in "containment" and "domino theory" as yet another incorrect big idea that we have fought a war over. 

[Jim Bob]

i believe we should pull our troops out of Iraq.  Pull our troops out of Afganistan.  Let our troops return to their families.  Our presence in that part of the world is a HUGE part of what fuels so much of their hatred to the U.S.    Thankfully, I think Barack Obama has done a lot to improve the image of the U.S., but he needs to get us out of those two countries.    Actions speak louder than words.

[Drew]

The top 10 biggest stimulus projects....and all of the wonderful jobs they created.    

1. Savannah River Nuclear Solutions, LLC (SC) - $1,407,839,884 awarded - $225,872,246 invoiced/received - 800 jobs created - $282,340 per job
2. CH2M Hill Plateau Remediation Company (WA) - $1,359,715,229 - $142,167,945 invoiced - 621 jobs - $228,934 per job
3. CH2M WG Idaho LLC (ID) - $437,675,000 - $66,401,236 invoiced - 496 jobs - $133,873 per job
4. UT-Battelle, LLC (TN) - $338,697,231 - $12,909,144 invoiced - 41 jobs - $314,857 per job
5. SAIC-Frederick, Inc. (MD) - $302,521,207 - project not commenced
6. Washington River Protection Solutions LLC (WA) - $299,728,838 - 200 jobs - $28,092,695 invoiced - $140,463 per job
7. Babcock & Wilcox Technical Services Y-12, LLC (TN) - $270,299,243 - 129 jobs - $18,107,076 invoiced - $140,364 per job
8. Brookhaven Science Associates, LLC (NY) - $257,613,800 - 25 jobs - $29,528,879 invoiced - $1,181,155 per job
9. Washington Closure Hanford, LLC (WA) - $253,614,000 - 36 jobs - $16,474,802 invoiced - $457,633 per job
10. Los Alamos National Security, LLC (NM) - $230,835,000 - 66 jobs - $7,646,242 invoiced - $115,852 per job

Source: http://bombsanddollars.com/index/2009/11/top-10-stimulus-job-sites/

It's hard to keep from laughing even with all the anger!

[Jim Bob]

The top 10 biggest stimulus projects....and all of the wonderful jobs they created.    

1. Savannah River Nuclear Solutions, LLC (SC) - $1,407,839,884 awarded - $225,872,246 invoiced/received - 800 jobs created - $282,340 per job
2. CH2M Hill Plateau Remediation Company (WA) - $1,359,715,229 - $142,167,945 invoiced - 621 jobs - $228,934 per job
3. CH2M WG Idaho LLC (ID) - $437,675,000 - $66,401,236 invoiced - 496 jobs - $133,873 per job
4. UT-Battelle, LLC (TN) - $338,697,231 - $12,909,144 invoiced - 41 jobs - $314,857 per job
5. SAIC-Frederick, Inc. (MD) - $302,521,207 - project not commenced
6. Washington River Protection Solutions LLC (WA) - $299,728,838 - 200 jobs - $28,092,695 invoiced - $140,463 per job
7. Babcock & Wilcox Technical Services Y-12, LLC (TN) - $270,299,243 - 129 jobs - $18,107,076 invoiced - $140,364 per job
8. Brookhaven Science Associates, LLC (NY) - $257,613,800 - 25 jobs - $29,528,879 invoiced - $1,181,155 per job
9. Washington Closure Hanford, LLC (WA) - $253,614,000 - 36 jobs - $16,474,802 invoiced - $457,633 per job
10. Los Alamos National Security, LLC (NM) - $230,835,000 - 66 jobs - $7,646,242 invoiced - $115,852 per job

Source: http://bombsanddollars.com/index/2009/11/top-10-stimulus-job-sites/

It's hard to keep from laughing even with all the anger!

and republicans are calling for less regulation.