Chinese Democracy Tracklist

[faldor]

from the point of view of the record company or Best Buy, i'm not sure i see the rationale behind releasing an album with at least 5 songs that can be listened to on Youtube the last few years and a few more that can be picked up by anyone with modest understanding of the internet. Every review is going to be "...with only 4 songs not previously heard...". To my mind, that kind of takes away the steam of promoting it as "FINALLY after 17 years..."

also, doesnt the first single, if they're releasing a traditional single, HAVE to be a song no one's heard before?

I listened to the leaks... but it was my choice.
If people/critics are downloading them or listening via you tube.. their choice.
It's not an obligation.

But please, listen/judge unfineshed tracks and still critize the album for having leaked songs.. well that's the normal level hipocrisy that we have in almost every journalist that write something about Axl, GNR and CD.

I'm a fan, I want to buy the album, listen to the finished tracks, no matter if I heard 1 or 14 of them before.

i'm saying more from a sales/ marketing point of view...it's not really a new album. Madagascar was on MTV 6 years ago. They dont have to sell it to the choir (us) they have to sell it to a million or two other people as the triumphant return etc etc, but with more than half the album available online for years, the return is more of a trickle-again, from a marketing perspective-than an explosion

OK, so still (kinda) outside of your perspective: Yes, they have to sell it to the general audience, not only to GNR fans. Anyway, the option of downloading the leaks or not is the same. Those who likes any kind of music (hard rock) and wanted to listen to them just did. It's their problem, they should've known it would be on the next GNR record. Just don't have the right to complain now.

Getting to your point, let?s consider what general music fans could've legally heard:
Regularly played since 2001/02: "CD", "Madagascar" and "The Blues"= 3 songs;
If we count "Rhiad", played only 3 times. = 4 songs
On 2006 they added "Better" and "IRS", so we have 6 "revealed" songs.
TWAT, on just 2 shows = 7 songs
Rock Band (not everyone has videogames): Shackler's = 8 songs
Body of Lies: If the World (1:30, not everyone saw/will see the movie) = 9 CD "revealed" songs

Ask those people this:
1) When was the last time GNR toured?
2) Have you been there?
3) Did you listen to some bootleg track/video? Like it?
4) Say 3 new GNR song titles?
5) Could you sing them/remember the melodies?
6) Who are the members these days?

The ordinary answers you would have:
1) Not sure or / Maybe 2006.
2) No or / I went to one concert and was great.
3) No or / I saw a bootleg couple times. I liked, but prefer the old songs/band.
4) Madagascar, Axl played on VMA's;.... Better and.... don't know.
5) No. Wait! Na na na na .. I know better, better.. na na na... that's all dude.
6) Axl, Bucket.. no, Bumblefoot, Robert Finck and.. well Slash is out.

Remember those guys looking scared at you when you sang along "the blues" at one of the concerts?
That was not because your voice sucked.. in fact, they didn't know the lyrics and didn't understand how you knew it.

So, do you really think that those "9" (5) songs are old to them?? I'd say 3 "vaguely known" songs at the most.
On the other hand, the reason GNR showed this songs on gigs/game/movie was to make the public familiar with at least 1 of those tracks, generanting curiosity and interest, and that's what marketing is all about. Sales are just consequences.

Could we have the same hype if the songs were totally new? Maybe for us downloading motherfuckers, but not for the rest of the world. Just promotion for 14 unknown tracks of a "15 years inactive" band, even with strong "brands" like GNR, Axl and Chinese Democracy, wouldn't be enough for this shitty music market nowadays.
The "making it familiar" strategy is a very smart way to mitigate that, a least a little.
 
My friends, those "free trials"(legal ones) along with apropriate mass promotion, which is on it's way, the band members charisma, AND THE FINISHED TRACKS, will make GNR rule the world again.

P.S.: Also, remember, if they didn't play any new songs on those ways: "Fuck! they play the same songs since 1994"; "I told the album doesn't exist"; "It's a cover band"; "No singles until now? 2009 here we go"; etc, etc, etc

missing the point...the reviewers will make sure everyone knows there's only 4 or 5 actually new songs on the album. Regardless of what people think of the music  when they review, there's the negativity built in "why do we get an album with 7 year old songs on it?". Also, we've all seen the songs reviewed when they were leaked; i'd say it's well beneath 50% that those reviews were generally good. So people will have pre-conceived notions pushed on them maybe even before the already listen to the album.

I think YOU'RE the one missing the point.  Any reviewer who brings up the fact that only 3 of the tracks haven't been available to illegally download were gonna give the album a bad review regardless.  If it wasn't for that fact, they'd use the "it's taken 17 years to make THIS" line.  An honest review is not gonna tell the reader the album is no good because you could download it for free.  You're hung up on the 9 leaked tracks like that was an earth shattering event that the whole entire free world took notice of.  It was a big deal at the time, but it came and it went.  Lots of media types just don't like Axl Rose and already had their minds made up that this album was not gonna reach their expectations.

And there have been a bunch of articles already written about the deal with Best Buy, and I don't remember reading anything about the fact that fans will really only be getting the chance to hear 3 new songs.  Maybe I missed that part.  If they know about the leaks, they certainly know they're all a part of the tracklist, why wait for the official review to mention that?  

[Eazy E]

"We do about four or five songs that we've done at the various shows ... but we're still holding our big guns back..."

At this point, I think they had played Madagascar, The Blues, Chinese Democracy & Rhiad live... I am also under the impression (though I could be wrong) that at least Shackler's, Better & Sorry came together after this statement.

So that leaves If The World, Prostitute, Catcher, There Was A Time, This I Love, Scraped & I.R.S....

I wonder which songs in particular he was referring to, considering how everyone seems to have their own favourites when it comes to these songs.

[axl2]

I'm guessing. Twat (song is amazzzzzing) This I Love, Scraped, Maybe that song thought to be "Checkmate" I'm actually hoping that is "Scraped" cause that song had a serious kick to it. You can include Prostitute to that list. I think all these songs are going to be money.

[destroier]

"We do about four or five songs that we've done at the various shows ... but we're still holding our big guns back..."

At this point, I think they had played Madagascar, The Blues, Chinese Democracy & Rhiad live... I am also under the impression (though I could be wrong) that at least Shackler's, Better & Sorry came together after this statement.

So that leaves If The World, Prostitute, Catcher, There Was A Time, This I Love, Scraped & I.R.S....

I wonder which songs in particular he was referring to, considering how everyone seems to have their own favourites when it comes to these songs.

I think he mentioned Better as being among his two or three favorites at one point. This I Love is probably a "big gun", based on it being a follow up to November Rain/Estranged. The rest, such as The General are probably being saved for the other two albums. It would be kind of stupid to release 14 "big guns" on one album.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

"We do about four or five songs that we've done at the various shows ... but we're still holding our big guns back..."

At this point, I think they had played Madagascar, The Blues, Chinese Democracy & Rhiad live... I am also under the impression (though I could be wrong) that at least Shackler's, Better & Sorry came together after this statement.

So that leaves If The World, Prostitute, Catcher, There Was A Time, This I Love, Scraped & I.R.S....

I wonder which songs in particular he was referring to, considering how everyone seems to have their own favourites when it comes to these songs.

Eazy, that statement sounds like it was made back in 2002.

Better is a HUGE gun.  TWAT was played twice and IRS replaced Rhiad in the rotation every show.

And then we hear the other new songs...

Axl has more guns than the late Charlton Heston had.

[riotact_vancity]

so is TWAT gonna change leak to master the way NR changed from 20 minute song to 9 minute all time great?

Does it matter?

If you wanted to be as technical about it as you seem to be, both songs were "old" when they were released.

he avoids negative press based solely on the fact we've heard the material already

But "we" haven't...


You still don't seem to get the idea that it's possible the record company thinks this is an amazing album. Do you think it would be possible that they, even though you're worried about the reviewers bashing the songs for being old, think the songs are so fucking awesome that they need to be released?


Just for the record.

I'm curious, this worry you have, is it legit? Or is it just another way for you to say that you wish they would've put other songs, that you haven't heard, on the album? Because you chose to ruin the surprise.....




/jarmo

the implication with NR at the very least is that yeah it was from pre-AFD, but it was completely retooled. That contextual argument probably wont apply here.

"we" being a collective...

who knows what the record company thinks? were they the ones that sicced the FBI on the guy that leaked If the world? Why was no one arrested for Better? Why wasnt Mike Piazza arrested when he let that song (IRS was it?) out? My answer would be that those songs were meant to be leaked in order to play them at concerts and not have  people be lost.

my worry, if being completely open, is multi faceted:

literally the first thing i ever searched on the internet was GnR, i've stuck with Axl through a lot, and i want that to pay off by my (all of ours) loyalty being rewarded by GnR becoming huge again, and anything that interrupts that i see as a set back.

as a personal fan of Axl, i'm pulling for him to release some stuff that shuts up the haters, which means a great album.

frankly, of the songs leaked, i think Catcher has greatness in it, TWAT is fantastic, If The World has some of the coolest guitar i've ever heard in mainstream rock, Better is cool but overrated by a lot of us....of the rest of the rockers i still think Oh My God is the best i've heard. The rest arent terrible songs, but arent Jungle, Sweet Child, Estranged, Dont Cry etc, they're more along the lines of the Garden or Rocket Queen; cool stuff but wont be hits and wont be classics. And, bluntly, i think the weakness in what i've heard so far is Axl's lyric writing, at least on the level of the subjects. He's self-indulging too much on the pain he felt from whatever (Steph, the band breaking up etc etc). I realize that youthful anger wont be there, but that's the problem. He was gone so long and left at the apex of the world that there's a void. His legend never "cheapened" the way Vedders did or Metallica's did, in a way he died like Cobain. Except he's going to release new material and we expect or want another record with the same ground breaking kick in the ass that Appetite had or Illusions had...and frankly it isnt there. I havent heard any big guns. The songs i think are great arent really hit material and i'm not sure i hear anything to stop the critics from breaking out the "14 years for THIS?" critique. If this album is released by a new band no one's ever heard of, it gets 4-5 stars out of 5. But for the guy that wrote November Rain and Sweet Child i'm not sure the burden of expectation allows what i've heard to be more than 3/5.

i cant say i'm disappointed in what i've heard because on an objective level it's very very good with moments you can put up with anything ever released by anyone (the breakdown and chorus in Catcher for instance), but on a selfishly subjective level i think i was expecting 80 minutes of spellbinding amazement. And i think i'm disappointed, not in what i hear, but in what i dont.

[riotact_vancity]

from the point of view of the record company or Best Buy, i'm not sure i see the rationale behind releasing an album with at least 5 songs that can be listened to on Youtube the last few years and a few more that can be picked up by anyone with modest understanding of the internet. Every review is going to be "...with only 4 songs not previously heard...". To my mind, that kind of takes away the steam of promoting it as "FINALLY after 17 years..."

also, doesnt the first single, if they're releasing a traditional single, HAVE to be a song no one's heard before?

I listened to the leaks... but it was my choice.
If people/critics are downloading them or listening via you tube.. their choice.
It's not an obligation.

But please, listen/judge unfineshed tracks and still critize the album for having leaked songs.. well that's the normal level hipocrisy that we have in almost every journalist that write something about Axl, GNR and CD.

I'm a fan, I want to buy the album, listen to the finished tracks, no matter if I heard 1 or 14 of them before.

i'm saying more from a sales/ marketing point of view...it's not really a new album. Madagascar was on MTV 6 years ago. They dont have to sell it to the choir (us) they have to sell it to a million or two other people as the triumphant return etc etc, but with more than half the album available online for years, the return is more of a trickle-again, from a marketing perspective-than an explosion

OK, so still (kinda) outside of your perspective: Yes, they have to sell it to the general audience, not only to GNR fans. Anyway, the option of downloading the leaks or not is the same. Those who likes any kind of music (hard rock) and wanted to listen to them just did. It's their problem, they should've known it would be on the next GNR record. Just don't have the right to complain now.

Getting to your point, let?s consider what general music fans could've legally heard:
Regularly played since 2001/02: "CD", "Madagascar" and "The Blues"= 3 songs;
If we count "Rhiad", played only 3 times. = 4 songs
On 2006 they added "Better" and "IRS", so we have 6 "revealed" songs.
TWAT, on just 2 shows = 7 songs
Rock Band (not everyone has videogames): Shackler's = 8 songs
Body of Lies: If the World (1:30, not everyone saw/will see the movie) = 9 CD "revealed" songs

Ask those people this:
1) When was the last time GNR toured?
2) Have you been there?
3) Did you listen to some bootleg track/video? Like it?
4) Say 3 new GNR song titles?
5) Could you sing them/remember the melodies?
6) Who are the members these days?

The ordinary answers you would have:
1) Not sure or / Maybe 2006.
2) No or / I went to one concert and was great.
3) No or / I saw a bootleg couple times. I liked, but prefer the old songs/band.
4) Madagascar, Axl played on VMA's;.... Better and.... don't know.
5) No. Wait! Na na na na .. I know better, better.. na na na... that's all dude.
6) Axl, Bucket.. no, Bumblefoot, Robert Finck and.. well Slash is out.

Remember those guys looking scared at you when you sang along "the blues" at one of the concerts?
That was not because your voice sucked.. in fact, they didn't know the lyrics and didn't understand how you knew it.

So, do you really think that those "9" (5) songs are old to them?? I'd say 3 "vaguely known" songs at the most.
On the other hand, the reason GNR showed this songs on gigs/game/movie was to make the public familiar with at least 1 of those tracks, generanting curiosity and interest, and that's what marketing is all about. Sales are just consequences.

Could we have the same hype if the songs were totally new? Maybe for us downloading motherfuckers, but not for the rest of the world. Just promotion for 14 unknown tracks of a "15 years inactive" band, even with strong "brands" like GNR, Axl and Chinese Democracy, wouldn't be enough for this shitty music market nowadays.
The "making it familiar" strategy is a very smart way to mitigate that, a least a little.
 
My friends, those "free trials"(legal ones) along with apropriate mass promotion, which is on it's way, the band members charisma, AND THE FINISHED TRACKS, will make GNR rule the world again.

P.S.: Also, remember, if they didn't play any new songs on those ways: "Fuck! they play the same songs since 1994"; "I told the album doesn't exist"; "It's a cover band"; "No singles until now? 2009 here we go"; etc, etc, etc

missing the point...the reviewers will make sure everyone knows there's only 4 or 5 actually new songs on the album. Regardless of what people think of the music  when they review, there's the negativity built in "why do we get an album with 7 year old songs on it?". Also, we've all seen the songs reviewed when they were leaked; i'd say it's well beneath 50% that those reviews were generally good. So people will have pre-conceived notions pushed on them maybe even before the already listen to the album.

I think YOU'RE the one missing the point.  Any reviewer who brings up the fact that only 3 of the tracks haven't been available to illegally download were gonna give the album a bad review regardless.  If it wasn't for that fact, they'd use the "it's taken 17 years to make THIS" line.  An honest review is not gonna tell the reader the album is no good because you could download it for free.  You're hung up on the 9 leaked tracks like that was an earth shattering event that the whole entire free world took notice of.  It was a big deal at the time, but it came and it went.  Lots of media types just don't like Axl Rose and already had their minds made up that this album was not gonna reach their expectations.

And there have been a bunch of articles already written about the deal with Best Buy, and I don't remember reading anything about the fact that fans will really only be getting the chance to hear 3 new songs.  Maybe I missed that part.  If they know about the leaks, they certainly know they're all a part of the tracklist, why wait for the official review to mention that?  

how would any review mentioning the leaks automatically have been a bad review anyway?

gets right down to it, i havent seen many reviews of the leaked tracks that were positive, i'd say it runs 50/50, with a good number of them at least leaving the "...but we'll wait for the album" caveat

maybe my mind is going (been writing a paper all night) but every story i've read with the tracklist mentioned threw out the leaks issue

[jarmo]

the implication with NR at the very least is that yeah it was from pre-AFD, but it was completely retooled. That contextual argument probably wont apply here.

So you don't have a problem with the song being "old", it's just that you chose to listen to it that is causing problems?

who knows what the record company thinks? were they the ones that sicced the FBI on the guy that leaked If the world? Why was no one arrested for Better? Why wasnt Mike Piazza arrested when he let that song (IRS was it?) out? My answer would be that those songs were meant to be leaked in order to play them at concerts and not have  people be lost.

Who knows what they think? Well, I assumed that since you're so good at coming up with possible scenarios for what the reviewers will say, I thought you could do the same with the record company.


It was the FBI and RIAA. RIAA works for the record companies.

The law didn't exist until 2005 (I think).

as a personal fan of Axl, i'm pulling for him to release some stuff that shuts up the haters, which means a great album.

Exactly.

And a great album doesn't become less great because you heard the songs.

AFD is still great! And you might have been listening to that for over 20 years!

Except he's going to release new material and we expect or want another record with the same ground breaking kick in the ass that Appetite had or Illusions had...and frankly it isnt there.

That's you being the reviewer you worry about. Kinda ironic....


You keep comparing LEAKS to finished tracks you have listened to for at least 17 years. That's such a fair comparison.



Maybe you don't get what you want out of the album (which you haven't heard yet) because you changed?

Maybe you don't get what you want out of it because you ruined it all for yourself?




Basically everything you said, with the exception of things that relate to the Internet, could've been said in 1991 before UYI were released.



Here you are slamming the album before you even heard it while "worrying" about critics. To me it just looks like you're upset because you ruined the surprise.

I kinda feel sorry for you. At a time, that everybody looked forward to, some claimed to have waited for it for years and how great it would be once the day came, you're focusing on the negatives.

It just seems that everything nice is followed by a "but......".



/jarmo

[axl4ever]

One thing that gets really old is people complaining about an album that's never been heard.  We've heard leaks but have not heard a finished product.  I love what I've heard from leaks and am looking forward to the completed album.  It's like there are so many people against Axl.  It's not going to be Appetite for Destruction part II, but neither were UYI's.  Even if the "original" GNR were together today, they wouldn't be putting out another AFD.  If they had stayed together, they would have moved forward musically and their interests would have changed.  I don't think Velvet Revolver is a redo if AFD but it feels like because it's Axl doing it solo (which Chinese Democracy is for the most part), it's wrong.  Fans have let previous GNR members move forward and appreciated their work.  Why not Axl? 

[RTK]

This is awesome stuff, love the trackilsting. 14 songs is great, I hate it when bands put out like 10 songs, the CD is 80 mins for a reason!

Also, I don't think that having heard the songs diminishes them in any way. The first time I heard the latest version of Chinese Democracy (the song) I was blown away, cuz it was familiar to the live version we'd had for years but sounded really good and improved. The only bad thing will probably be lazy critics and reviewers who will just spend the whole review retelling the story of how long its been and who's been in and out etc... I don't think there's gonna be any problem with the quality of these songs, Axl knows the importance of the album on both the public perception of him and the band and his psyche.

[axl4ever]

This is awesome stuff, love the trackilsting. 14 songs is great, I hate it when bands put out like 10 songs, the CD is 80 mins for a reason!

Also, I don't think that having heard the songs diminishes them in any way. The first time I heard the latest version of Chinese Democracy (the song) I was blown away, cuz it was familiar to the live version we'd had for years but sounded really good and improved. The only bad thing will probably be lazy critics and reviewers who will just spend the whole review retelling the story of how long its been and who's been in and out etc... I don't think there's gonna be any problem with the quality of these songs, Axl knows the importance of the album on both the public perception of him and the band and his psyche.

You've got a good point abut the critics rehashing the time it took to get the album out and forgetting about the content.  I honestly believe that true fans of GNR will get past the critics and that new fans will listen to the music and not the BS being put out their by people who for one, never thought the the album would come out, two, who may have a grudge against Axl and three, can't admit they were wrong about the BS they spoke for yrs when they didn't think it would ever see the light of day.  All reviews should be based on the content and quality of the music, not the other stuff. 

[big guns]

Something totally off topic...was reading the Mark Canter book and some stripper from the 80's said she was hanging out with Axl (Pre-Appetite release era), and he played Novermber Rain for her and told her he wrote it when he was 15 years old!!!

Dude, I always knew he was a lyrical mastermind, but that is fn' insane.

CD will prove who really is (and was) the heart of GNR.

Axl's status will be cemented in time forever as one of the greatest frontmen upon release.

[axl2]

Something totally off topic...was reading the Mark Canter book and some stripper from the 80's said she was hanging out with Axl (Pre-Appetite release era), and he played Novermber Rain for her and told her he wrote it when he was 15 years old!!!

Dude, I always knew he was a lyrical mastermind, but that is fn' insane.

CD will prove who really is (and was) the heart of GNR.

Axl's status will be cemented in time forever as one of the greatest frontmen upon release.

Axl was playing a lot of Piano back then. A lot of songs he had written before GNR even became a band.

[Bruno Poeys]

Something totally off topic...was reading the Mark Canter book and some stripper from the 80's said she was hanging out with Axl (Pre-Appetite release era), and he played Novermber Rain for her and told her he wrote it when he was 15 years old!!!

Dude, I always knew he was a lyrical mastermind, but that is fn' insane.

CD will prove who really is (and was) the heart of GNR.

Axl's status will be cemented in time forever as one of the greatest frontmen upon release.

Axl was playing a lot of Piano back then. A lot of songs he had written before GNR even became a band.

All those songs sounded dated when they were released. Those songs sucked back then.

[jazjme]

DUDE why are you here?^

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

DUDE why are you here?^

Amazing, isn't it?

[jazjme]

TO say that NR, and DC, etc sucked ,back then is to say why you even bother spending time on something or a band you clearly don't like, that's kinda fucked upped imo. What the fuck you looking for.

[DEAD HORSE]

I don't care if I've heard 9 songs already, I wish IRS would be there though, I LOVE that song, 
I'm glad there are 14 songs, I hope the cd booklet rocks and have tons of pictures   
Hail Axl!

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I don't care if I've heard 9 songs already, I wish IRS would be there though, I LOVE that song, 
I'm glad there are 14 songs, I hope the cd booklet rocks and have tons of pictures   
Hail Axl!

IRS is there my friend!

[RTK]

Something totally off topic...was reading the Mark Canter book and some stripper from the 80's said she was hanging out with Axl (Pre-Appetite release era), and he played Novermber Rain for her and told her he wrote it when he was 15 years old!!!

Dude, I always knew he was a lyrical mastermind, but that is fn' insane.

CD will prove who really is (and was) the heart of GNR.

Axl's status will be cemented in time forever as one of the greatest frontmen upon release.

Way to put so much pressure on the guy. I don't think that one album can cement someone's status, the best I think it can do is justify the long wait.