CD on Universals 4th quarter release list!?

[rds.06]

Looks fake to me  .

[Naltav]

Usually I'll just read posts to see what's going on. But I gotta say, Jarmo, being the Administrator around here and in some way "in the loop",  the way you talk down to board-members gives me a bad feeling....

I don't talk down on anyone. I say what I think and tell people I think they're wrong when they post things I disagree with.

I've seen people post the same things for years. And they keep doing it even though times have changed.



I'm not telling anyone what they can feel either. I'm telling people that if they're frustrated, there's a place for that.

I'm also telling them that a lot of their feelings I don't understand. It makes very little sense to me to be angry at the band for things you built up in your own head for example.






/jarmo

Well,  it's very clear you don't understand some peoples frustration. Like I said you're blessed with a good patience (and contact with GN'R), but maybe you have some work to do with a thing called empathy.... A person with little or no empathy, would respond exactly the way you do! "I don't tell people what to feel, think or say..." 

But the thing is, most people don't have regular contact with GN'R or the GN'R-camp, get emails from bandmembers or their assistants/managers.

So, for you to say that we as fans, keep repeating the same thing for years or we are not owed anything, doesn't hold any water.

I know perfectly well that Axl or GN'R don't literally owe me a song, an album or an update. But no matter how hard I try not to be bothered with the lack of information. It still finds a way to creep up on me.... It's not a "general misconception" (as you put it..). It's how I feel! Simple as that!  Sure, I know that there probably is a valid reason for the silence, well that doesn't make the feeling go away....

Oh! One more thing. Please think before using the "Do you think a doctor owes you because he's successful and makes money?"-line again. That was just silly! You're lack of empathy shined through on that one!! 

[final_touches]

Yeah right, people thinking the album was coming out had nothing to do with "people will here music this year", "there are 13 Tuesdays left" or Axl even giving a specific release date for March 2007.

It's just that crazy fan boys making things up in their head and then blaming the band and Axl for things not turning out as the fans hoped they would. 

Here we go again.

The March 2007 was not a "specific release date". You made that part up!

It was a TENTATIVE release date. Meaning, it was not final. So, once again, you assumed shit and got frustrated. Which proves my point.


"You will hear music". Yes, that was the plan when he said so.





/jarmo

I don't say that GNR camp necessarily lied to us (can't say they didn't either), my point is just that the fans just didn't make things up in their head. GnR promised them an album and they didn't deliver, that's a fact.

That's all I wanted to say.


BTW Jarmo,  you sid:  "So, once again, you assumed shit and got frustrated. Which proves my point."

This is an ideological statement. You cannot be proven wrong with this kind of attitude.

[Howard2k]

Yeah right, people thinking the album was coming out had nothing to do with "people will here music this year", "there are 13 Tuesdays left" or Axl even giving a specific release date for March 2007.

It's just that crazy fan boys making things up in their head and then blaming the band and Axl for things not turning out as the fans hoped they would. 

Here we go again.

The March 2007 was not a "specific release date". You made that part up!

It was a TENTATIVE release date. Meaning, it was not final. So, once again, you assumed shit and got frustrated. Which proves my point.


"You will hear music". Yes, that was the plan when he said so.





/jarmo

I don't say that GNR camp necessarily lied to us (can't say they didn't either), my point is just that the fans just didn't make things up in their head. GnR promised them an album and they didn't deliver, that's a fact.

That's all I wanted to say.


BTW Jarmo,  you sid:  "So, once again, you assumed shit and got frustrated. Which proves my point."

This is an ideological statement. You cannot be proven wrong with this kind of attitude.

Fans don't make things up?  Are you fucking kidding?

It was a TENTATIVE date.  But within SECOND it was all over the place that it was a confirmed release date.   As for all the other deranged rumours.  Yes, fans make up shit about this band all the time, it's stunning.  Where exactly did Axl promise you that you'd get Chi Dem?

[jarmo]

Well,  it's very clear you don't understand some peoples frustration.

I keep repeating the same shit over and over. I don't know if you refuse to read it or what.

I've said I could understand it if things were like in (for example) 2005. When nothing was happening as far as we could tell.

Things have changed, people haven't.

So by saying I don't understand it, you're making assumptions based on false information.

Like I said you're blessed with a good patience (and contact with GN'R), but maybe you have some work to do with a thing called empathy.... A person with little or no empathy, would respond exactly the way you do! "I don't tell people what to feel, think or say..."

Thank you Dr Phil. 

I respond to your personal attack and I get attacked again. I guess nothing I say will change your mind. I have no empathy.

Right.

So, for you to say that we as fans, keep repeating the same thing for years or we are not owed anything, doesn't hold any water.

Are you telling me how to feel? 

I know perfectly well that Axl or GN'R don't literally owe me a song, an album or an update. But no matter how hard I try not to be bothered with the lack of information. It still finds a way to creep up on me.... It's not a "general misconception" (as you put it..). It's how I feel! Simple as that!  Sure, I know that there probably is a valid reason for the silence, well that doesn't make the feeling go away....

Maybe you should try harder?

Does the constant whining make things better?

What exactly are you hoping to get out by saying things like "the album's not out! Boohoo!" year after year?

Help me understand!

To me it just seems like pointless whining. Not productive at all.

My attitude is that "it's not out yet and I can't do anything about it, but at the same time I'm confident that it'll be out as soon as possible".



All the negative people, if this was a party, they'd be the ones who were constantly trying to keep everybody else down. Nobody's allowed to have fun! Constantly reminding everybody about how much everything sucks.

And you wonder why some of us aren't exactly thrilled about having that kind of people around?

Oh! One more thing. Please think before using the "Do you think a doctor owes you because he's successful and makes money?"-line again. That was just silly! You're lack of empathy shined through on that one!! 

It was an analogy about how you pay for a product and/or service, you still don't have the right to claim you're owed because that money is used to buy a house or something ("he wouldn't have that house without my money"). Obviously since you have to respond that way, it must've touched a nerve.

Fans don't make things up?  Are you fucking kidding?

It was a TENTATIVE date.  But within SECOND it was all over the place that it was a confirmed release date.   As for all the other deranged rumours.  Yes, fans make up shit about this band all the time, it's stunning. 

Exactly.



To further prove the point about constant negativity, look at what route this thread has taken.

Something positive to talk about (the possibility of the album being on a release date schedule for Q4) and some of you can't live with that.... The ship has to be turned around!






/jarmo

[Gritty]

Are you guys out of your minds? When Axl comes out with a release date, tentative or not, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that, hey, fans might expect the CD to come out around then! But it didn't. Didn't even come close. I doubt anyone expected "tentative" to mean years from March. You can be as patient/positive as you want about it, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is a circus.

[final_touches]

Are you guys out of your minds? When Axl comes out with a release date, tentative or not, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that, hey, fans might expect the CD to come out around then! But it didn't. Didn't even come close. I doubt anyone expected "tentative" to mean years from March. You can be as patient/positive as you want about it, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is a circus.

Exactly!

[jarmo]

Are you guys out of your minds? When Axl comes out with a release date, tentative or not, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that, hey, fans might expect the CD to come out around then! But it didn't.

Yeah, even thought it was "not a promise, a lie or a guarantee".

 

To say the making of this album has been an unbearably long and incomprehensible journey would be an understatement. Overcoming the endless and seemingly insane amount of obstacles faced by all involved, notwithstanding the emotional challenges endured by everyone -- the fans, the band, our road crew and business team -- has at many times seemed like a bad dream in which one wakes up only to find that they are still in the nightmare. Unfortunately, this time it has been played out for over a decade in real life.

The true, ongoing, behind-the-scenes triumphs and casualties are much more complicated than any negative speculation that the media or otherwise has managed to hit upon. For much of the time, various legal issues have arisen, demanding that the best way to deal with these things publicly, quite frankly, was to keep our mouths shut in an attempt to ensure the best outcome-- especially one that wouldn?t jeopardize the band or the album. It?s easy for people to point out how others have handled similar situations or how they would have dealt with these issues themselves if they encountered them in their own lives. But again, without full knowledge of the various dynamics and circumstances involved, these types of comments or commentary are just uninformed, disassociated, generally useless -- and often hindering --speculation.

There's your explanation for it.

When are you gonna move on?





/jarmo

[gilld1]

To say it shouldn't matter to us, the fans, how a band uses its time is to ignore the whole symbionic relationship between band and fans.

Musicians create music. Somebody likes it and becomes a fan. Some just enjoy the music but don't turn into a fan.

You buy the album, you get to hear the music and hopefully the musicians get their share of the money.

You buy the ticket, you get to see a show. Once again, hopefully the musicians get paid too.

And so on.


It kinda stops there. Whatever the musicians do with they earned money isn't really the point.

Some of you seem to think "well, we gave them the opportunity to live in big houses and so on".

Well lots of professionals do. Do you think a doctor owes you because he's successful and makes money?



"I've been a fan forever, they owe us..." seems to be a general misconception among certain people.





/jarmo

I think what seems to be lost in the GnR camp is that the band needs the fans more than the fans need the band.  Throughout history there have been lots of bands/musicians that have been extremely talented but not had a fan base to support them and thus, they fade away.  With GnR you have a loyal fan base but the band does not seem to have the same loyalty to the fans.  It is a relationship and for 15 years it has been, for the most part, a one way relationship.  Would it really be so hard for Axl to do what Trent Reznor does with his fans: communicate?

I don't care what they do with their money.  And you're right, they don't owe us anything but some sort of communication with the fans they are in a relationship with would be nice.

[slashsbaconpit]

Are you guys out of your minds? When Axl comes out with a release date, tentative or not, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that, hey, fans might expect the CD to come out around then! But it didn't. Didn't even come close. I doubt anyone expected "tentative" to mean years from March. You can be as patient/positive as you want about it, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is a circus.

Yes, this!

A tentative date, generally means, it has at least a snowball's chance in hell of coming out sometime near March. But it's been years. Not days, weeks, months. Nearly two years.

As for Jarmo's attitude, it gets old. This is supposed to be a place to discuss GNR, but if you ever say anything that can be construed as negative, Jarmo jumps in and tells you how your wrong, threatens to throw your posts to Dead Horse or worse. I mean, he apparently has some kind of contact with the band, and has become a yes man for them. Anything they do is justified in his opinion. If they came out tomorrow and said "CD WILL BE RELEASED by  Dec. 25, 2008" and nothing happened for another two years, he'd defend it.
Now I'm not trying to be down on Jarmo, I know he's put a lot of work into this site, I'm just saying I have empathy for the people who feel like he's constantly talking down to them for being critical of a band that hasn't released an album in 15 years.

Okay, some got Shackler's Revenge (those who have a gaming system for Rockband 2). I see that as a positive step. I hope the album does make it out this year, but I doubt it. It just scares me to see Dizzy and other band members going off to do their own things (albums, tours). What if the release date is secured, and they other members of GNR decide, "hey, it's time to do my own thing, I've spend enough time on that" and never come back?

I don't know, maybe Jarmo has some perspective on this possiblity?

[Gritty]

I'm over it. I was backing the kid who you blasted, saying fans make shit up, which I'm not saying doesn't happen, but in this case, a "tentative" date was announced. It's not strange to think it may come out somewhere around that time. You make it sound as if people are stupid and unreasonable to assume that. Maybe you're right, as long as this has been going on, we probably should disregard everything they say until an album is actually in stores.

I understand it's a very strange situation, the Axl excerpt you posted just backs what I said. It's a circus. That's not being negative, it's calling it what it is. It doesn't mean I like the band any less, or I'm not gonna buy the album, or tickets to any show within 100 mile radius of my hometown. I'm as psyched as anyone for an album and some real rock n' roll shows.

[jarmo]

I think what seems to be lost in the GnR camp is that the band needs the fans more than the fans need the band. 

They've thanked the fans for their continued support several times.

Once again, it comes down to the whole "do you need to be told things" attitude.

Somebody needed to be told that they were in fact working on getting the album out, somebody else needs to be told the band appreciated its fans.

As for Jarmo's attitude, it gets old. This is supposed to be a place to discuss GNR, but if you ever say anything that can be construed as negative, Jarmo jumps in and tells you how your wrong, threatens to throw your posts to Dead Horse or worse.

Dead Horse was created specifically for one purpose. It's even mentioned in its description. Frequently asked questions.

I think most of what you complain about falls under that, don't you?

Now I'm not trying to be down on Jarmo, I know he's put a lot of work into this site, I'm just saying I have empathy for the people who feel like he's constantly talking down to them for being critical of a band that hasn't released an album in 15 years.

Of course you have empathy for those who think I talk down to them.

It would be a miracle if you understood my point of view.

Day after day, seeing the same people go on and on about how horrible everything is.

Why not do something about it?

Maybe listen to some other artist that "appreciates you more"? Oh wait, maybe their music sucks?

There's only one GN'R and they're not the band who is out to please everybody in this age of instant information.




I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation on how all this fucking whining helps.

Does it help the band to have a group of fans constantly whining about the album not being out?

Does it make your day better?

Also, what are you here for? The album's not out, so obviously you're not gonna be happy. Why do you keep going to a fan site for a band that makes you unhappy?

I'm curious. Please, let me know.

I'm over it. I was backing the kid who you blasted, saying fans make shit up, which I'm not saying doesn't happen

You think I made it up?

You saw with your own eyes how tentative was translated into meaning it would definitely be out in March 2007.

That's only one example.


Some people see "signs" everywhere. Then get their hopes up and once they realize it's not happening, hold it against the band.




/jarmo

[gilld1]

I think what seems to be lost in the GnR camp is that the band needs the fans more than the fans need the band. 

They've thanked the fans for their continued support several times.

Once again, it comes down to the whole "do you need to be told things" attitude.

Somebody needed to be told that they were in fact working on getting the album out, somebody else needs to be told the band appreciated its fans.

As for Jarmo's attitude, it gets old. This is supposed to be a place to discuss GNR, but if you ever say anything that can be construed as negative, Jarmo jumps in and tells you how your wrong, threatens to throw your posts to Dead Horse or worse.

Dead Horse was created specifically for one purpose. It's even mentioned in its description. Frequently asked questions.

I think most of what you complain about falls under that, don't you?

Now I'm not trying to be down on Jarmo, I know he's put a lot of work into this site, I'm just saying I have empathy for the people who feel like he's constantly talking down to them for being critical of a band that hasn't released an album in 15 years.

Of course you have empathy for those who think I talk down to them.

It would be a miracle if you understood my point of view.

Day after day, seeing the same people go on and on about how horrible everything is.

Why not do something about it?

Maybe listen to some other artist that "appreciates you more"? Oh wait, maybe their music sucks?

There's only one GN'R and they're not the band who is out to please everybody in this age of instant information.




I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation on how all this fucking whining helps.

Does it help the band to have a group of fans constantly whining about the album not being out?

Does it make your day better?

Also, what are you here for? The album's not out, so obviously you're not gonna be happy. Why do you keep going to a fan site for a band that makes you unhappy?

I'm curious. Please, let me know.

I'm over it. I was backing the kid who you blasted, saying fans make shit up, which I'm not saying doesn't happen

You think I made it up?

You saw with your own eyes how tentative was translated into meaning it would definitely be out in March 2007.

That's only one example.


Some people see "signs" everywhere. Then get their hopes up and once they realize it's not happening, hold it against the band.




/jarmo

Do I "need" to be told things?  No, but it would be nice

When a band goes on tour, don't they expect the fans to show up for the shows?  Why is it so wrong for the fans to have expectations as well? 

Why is it that you consider any kind of opinion that varies from your whining?  Sometimes you just need to get things off your chest.  You ever have one of those days at work that you need to go home and vent to someone then you feel better? 

[slashsbaconpit]

I think what seems to be lost in the GnR camp is that the band needs the fans more than the fans need the band. 

Of course you have empathy for those who think I talk down to them.

1. It would be a miracle if you understood my point of view.


2. Why not do something about it?
Maybe listen to some other artist that "appreciates you more"? Oh wait, maybe their music sucks?
Does it make your day better?

Please, let me know.

/jarmo

1. Oh God. Play the tortured artist.

2. Actually, it was while spending the $20 I had set aside for CD back when the tentative release date was blown by without a mention that I discovered Queens of the Stone Age. Hell, I've discovered a lot of different kinds of music while "whining" about CD. Actually, I'm really into a lot of classical stuff right now.  
So yes, whining about it does make my day better, especially when I see and hear how disrespected my favorite band is out in the real world. I'm just sick of the way that GNR has become a running joke for people in the press, and people on the street. The only way to overcome it is to release the album. Release it, and the ammunition for the jokes and disrespect goes way. I don't bitch because I have a dislike of GNR or Axl, I bitch because I love the band and its music, and I want to see Axl admired by the public at large as much as I admire him. That's what I think people don't understand about us "whiners." If we didn't care, and didn't support the band, we wouldn't be here. I fucking hate Pearl Jam, I think that Eddy Veder is an overrated, underperforming punk. I don't go to their fan sites and stir shit up.
I love GNR, I think Axl is a living legend, so I come here, poke around for some news, make a few posts. Sometimes I come across as negative, but only because I want to see GNR be successful again. One thing for sure, but not releasing the album, no further success will ever come.

[faldor]

Axl can do no right in some "fans" minds.  He wrote an open letter, which fans who are clamoring for information must've been pleased with at the time.  But since he didn't follow through with the "tentative" release date, they feel slighted, betrayed.  I realize he said he'd keep us updated, and many people are probably wondering why Axl doesn't start a blog and give us minute to minute updates of his life, but let's give up that dream.  It's not gonna happen.  Axl's biggest mistake may have been writing that letter.  He tried to inform fans about the process, which was a nice gesture.  But it has backfired because people now expect even more.

[Gritty]

You think I made it up?

You saw with your own eyes how tentative was translated into meaning it would definitely be out in March 2007.

That's only one example.


Some people see "signs" everywhere. Then get their hopes up and once they realize it's not happening, hold it against the band.


I made my point about the tentative date, I'm not gonna beat it to death. I understand what you are saying about the "signs", but don't think it applies in that case, it was straight from Axl's mouth. Right or wrong, I think people's frustration does stem from the lack of communication from the band. They are the only big act I can think of that is so secretive about what's going on. I'm sure they have their reasons, but it is a unique situation. Most other bands you can look up online to see what the lead singer ate for lunch, and when the drummer last took a shit. You say that GNR has never been a band to talk when they had nothing to say, but that really doesn't hold water, because when they were relevant, they were all over the news, radio etc. They were one of the biggest bands in the world, so there was no escaping the media's attention. People get frustrated because they want a CD or a show to get excited about. Because they are passionate about GNR. I don't really understand why you blast them for it. At least they are fans, that still care. I now plenty of people that will not be supporting GNR's future releases. There are a ton of people that think Axl is completely washed up and a has been. He put himself in that situation. You are right, GNR doesnt owe us anything, but they are lucky they have fans that still care. I think everybody posting on this site, it's a given will buy the CD, and I have a feeling the complaints will stop when that happens.

[The Prez]

It's a bit sad that Jarmo needs to defend himself for:
- how he runs this board
- to clear out what he said
- what we should think/how we should feel as 'real' fans
- and most important: in every possible way defending Guns N' Roses not matter what...

I think all this frustration by many fans, myself included for a bit, is blamed to GN'R. Is it so hard to be clear and concrete?
If they do not have a clue about the release of an album; well then say it: there is no album at this moment to be released. Period. People will at first be dissapointed, but then at least they know it and stop whining about it. The lack of info, status updates, etc...is just silly. Or GN'R is finished and the musicians go all there own way and we have nice memories of the greatest band ever, or they give information - news - whatever - ... to the fans just like any other band that respect theur fans. There is always something ongoing when you exist and work as a band. And if they are on a break, well, let us know!

[slashsbaconpit]

It's a bit sad that Jarmo needs to defend himself for:
- how he runs this board
- to clear out what he said
- what we should think/how we should feel as 'real' fans
- and most important: in every possible way defending Guns N' Roses not matter what...

I think all this frustration by many fans, myself included for a bit, is blamed to GN'R. Is it so hard to be clear and concrete?
If they do not have a clue about the release of an album; well then say it: there is no album at this moment to be released. Period. People will at first be dissapointed, but then at least they know it and stop whining about it. The lack of info, status updates, etc...is just silly. Or GN'R is finished and the musicians go all there own way and we have nice memories of the greatest band ever, or they give information - news - whatever - ... to the fans just like any other band that respect theur fans. There is always something ongoing when you exist and work as a band. And if they are on a break, well, let us know!

I think that's the thing. We feel like this album has been teased for us since 1999. That's when they started talking about it by the name Chinese Democracy. I mean if GNR was totally quiet about it, that'd be one thing. The problem is that it's been, "It's coming really soon!", "We'll be back next year with a whole bunch of new songs", "There's only 14 Tuesdays left!", and "It's tentatively going to be released on ..." immediately followed up by months or years of nothing.

That's the maddening thing. Either don't tell us that it's coming out until you're sure, or give us regular updates. But jump into the spotlight with announcements, then jump back out for months and years at a time. Hell, hire a part time PR dude to type bullshit on your website twice a month for $20,000 a year. At least that's giving us something.

As far as Jarmo, he's done a lot of work on this site and for the GNR community.

[Continental Drift]

 
So yes, whining about it does make my day better, especially when I see and hear how disrespected my favorite band is out in the real world. I'm just sick of the way that GNR has become a running joke for people in the press, and people on the street. The only way to overcome it is to release the album. Release it, and the ammunition for the jokes and disrespect goes way. I don't bitch because I have a dislike of GNR or Axl, I bitch because I love the band and its music, and I want to see Axl admired by the public at large as much as I admire him. That's what I think people don't understand about us "whiners." If we didn't care, and didn't support the band, we wouldn't be here. I fucking hate Pearl Jam, I think that Eddy Veder is an overrated, underperforming punk. I don't go to their fan sites and stir shit up.
I love GNR, I think Axl is a living legend, so I come here, poke around for some news, make a few posts. Sometimes I come across as negative, but only because I want to see GNR be successful again. One thing for sure, but not releasing the album, no further success will ever come.

I enjoyed your post. I feel like many of us have probably felt that way.

That being said... the reality is that OUR objectives and hopes and dreams for Axl may not correlate with AXL'S... and guess whose are going to win out?

Hopefully there's at least some "overlap"... but I think we have to ditch the idea of assuming (at least) that Axl gets up in the morning and looks forward to putting Eddie Vedder and other pretenders to the hard rock frontman throne in their place and "paying us back" for our loyalty by shutting up all the critics and buzzards that have picked over the bones of Guns N' Roses over the last 15 years.

My best guess is that this is an EXTREMELY personal and emotional album for Axl and he wants it to the best possible artistic statement it possibly can be (in his eyes). If it "sets the record straight" for the fans along the way... great. Bonus. But that's not the main focus IMHO. I think Axl is more motivated by the idea that (like AFD or Physical Graffiti, etc.) someone might pick up Chinese Democracy 20 years from now and will say.... "Holy shit! What an amazing fucking album!!". Now the beautiful thing is if he succeeds in achieving his objective (at least as how I see it)... then he will almost invariably succeed in achieving some of our objectives (shutting the critics the fuck up).

[Howard2k]

Are you guys out of your minds? When Axl comes out with a release date, tentative or not, it shouldn't come as a surprise to you that, hey, fans might expect the CD to come out around then! But it didn't. Didn't even come close. I doubt anyone expected "tentative" to mean years from March. You can be as patient/positive as you want about it, but it doesn't change the fact that the whole situation is a circus.

Seriously, if you look through my post history (the ones that haven't been erased), I'm FAR from the "worship Axl" type, and that's why Jarmo has sent a large portion of my posts to the digital bit bucket.

But - I DO understand what tentative means.  Not only do I know how to look it up in a dictionary, I actually know how to use the word in day to day conversation, and clearly there are a significant number of people here that do not.  Not correctly anyway. 

Tentative March does not mean that if it's not March it's going to be April.   It doesn't even mean that if it's not March it's going to be December.   It means that they will attempt to have it out in March. 

So while "fans" might expect a tentative March date to mean that if it's not coming out in March it's coming out in "insert month here", that's not how it works.  If you read tentative March and figured "Hey if it's not March, at least it'll be May" then you have only one person to blame.   And it's not Axl.  Or me.  Or even Jarmo. 

If a thousand people are all wrong, they don't become right once they reach a certain greater number. 

The situation is a circus, I agree.  But GNR provide the tent, it's the fans that are doing most of the clown work from what I see.