The war in Georgia

[LeftToDecay]

There was a (fast) reaction by EU.
Foreign ministers of France and Finland(France having the presidency of EU  atm, and Finland having the precidency of ETYJ atm) were both in Georgia before Russia had set foot in Gori.
It was diplomatic efforts of them(well, okayt, mainly France with additional help from Germany) that helped to craft the seize fire treaty  in relatively quick fashion. The actual importance of the treaty is questionable but hay.

Then again, it's all just talk. That's all  EU and US have done,or are willing to do  here.
There is, and there will be various acts of sympathy towards Georgia, aid programs and whatnot..but so far, there isn't a slightest hint of actual actions towards Russia. Just some harsh talk.

Stakes are just too high here. When a G7 country wants to show off and sieze something others watch. That's how it seems to go arond here.

It's good to remember that there isn't much of black or white in this conflict.'
Obviously western media is busy demonising Russia here, it's  prolly almost a reflex to many of the writers. However,  I was in Asshole convention of 2008 and noticed Russia, Georgia and Ossetania all had their own tables in the dining room.

I don't like playing devil's advocate here but it has to be said, Russia's operation as a whole in and around Georgia still score approx. 7 points lower in Cocksucker scale than the result USA is pounding in with the Shock&awe of Iraq.

Atleast Russians have a solid somewhat waterproof diplomatic shield for this.
They dont have to start creating excuses to be able to justify even some of this by  sending  Medvedev to an embarrassing world tour with a suitcase full of dias of some obscure as fuck embarrassing animated WMD trucks:p
I hate to play devil's avocade here but imho people are very horny to forget Georgia's own actions here. Just 5 or so days an entire western media ha forgotten that the the first bodies were provided by artilirrelity of Georgia.

It would be intetresting to know the actual scale of it all. Wonder how much  groundforces Russia has mobilised and used during the last week. How many men and tanks actually crossed the border?

[Doc Emmett Brown]

I hate to play devil's avocade here but imho people are very horny to forget Georgia's own actions here. Just 5 or so days an entire western media ha forgotten that the the first bodies were provided by artilirrelity of Georgia.

Most of the articles I've read have focused on Russia wanting to show off its own display of shock n' awe, but I just saw that CNN is running a headline 'Gorbachev: Georgia started conflict in S. Ossetia' (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/14/gorbachev/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)

Mikhail Gorbachev, writing in The Washington Post on Aug 12:
"What happened on the night of Aug. 7 is beyond comprehension. The Georgian military attacked the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali with multiple rocket launchers designed to devastate large areas. Russia had to respond. To accuse it of aggression against "small, defenseless Georgia" is not just hypocritical but shows a lack of humanity. . . . The Georgian leadership could do this only with the perceived support and encouragement of a much more powerful force."


and that powerful force is us!

Wonder how much  groundforces Russia has mobilised and used during the last week. How many men and tanks actually crossed the border?

That would be interesting to know, might get some idea from these photos: http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551

[Dr. Blutarsky]

There is a big difference between Russia moving into S Ossetia to protect its 'citizens' and occupying 1/3 of the country of Georgia.

Also, for Russia to agree to a ceasefire, then completely ignore it does not help their explanation either. Russia is clearly the aggressor here.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

I dont think anyone can deny that Russia is being aggressive, but the question is why would a podunk country like Georgia disturb the rattlesnake to begin with, unless they were fully expecting someone to back them up. It would be like, I dont know, say, Jamaica launching a missile into Florida just to see what would happen and then crying when we bulldoze them. What would be the incentive to light the fire?

I just looked through all the photos in the link I posted above, it doesn't really give a good idea of the scale of the invasion, but the photo of the open flesh wound made me wince a bit. It made me realize how most media coverage is sanitized these days.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I dont think anyone can deny that Russia is being aggressive, but the question is why would a podunk country like Georgia disturb the rattlesnake to begin with, unless they were fully expecting someone to back them up. It would be like, I dont know, say, Jamaica launching a missile into Florida just to see what would happen and then crying when we bulldoze them. What would be the incentive to light the fire?

I just looked through all the photos in the link I posted above, it doesn't really give a good idea of the scale of the invasion, but the photo of the open flesh wound made me wince a bit. It made me realize how most media coverage is sanitized these days.

And anti-Russia.

I've been saying all along that if the Georgians hadn't attacked S Ossetia, nothing would have happened.  How you fire upon peacekeepers is beyond me.  Oh, and giving away your strategy.  Beyond comprehension.

John McCain is such a worthless turd.  He says he wants to cut off ties with Russia.  That is really smart.

Even Eisenhower and Kennedy maintained some kind of relationship with Russia during those dark years.

Georgia = Epic Fail

[LeftToDecay]

How you fire upon peacekeepers is beyond me. 

Not sure if you wanna call the pre-conflict  Russian soldiers positioned in S.Ossetia peacekeepers. Unless you are an editor for Pravda and want to keep your job.
At one point, Both Russia and Georgia called their own armies in Ossetia as "peacekeepers"
So basically we have 2 armies of peacekeepers fighting and killing  over which peace is superior.:O

but the question is why would a podunk country like Georgia disturb the rattlesnake to begin with, unless they were fully expecting someone to back them up

Maybe  Georgia got provoked and lured into thinking there was not going to be a huge Russian reaction to their operation.

Georgian Diplomat: "So, we are going to go kick some seperatist ass, mkay?Tis ok to Putin&his homies?"
Ambassador of Russia: "Sure, its your fucking country and all, whatever dood."
Georgian Diplomat: ! sweet, thx bro!
Ambassador of Russia: np
*Georgia bombs Ossetia's capital*
Amabassador of Russia. "How dare you attack our peaceloving seperatist cousins, thou  shalt perish now!"
Georgian Diplomat: "But but!!"
Amabassador of Russia: "You fucked up boi  "

It's not like Georia attacked Russia itself, they attacked a seperatist part of their own country.
It still seems like a fucking stupid and self destructive thing to do. But it's so very easy for us to be wise and insightfull after shit has already hit the fan. "Lisa you fucking moron why the hell did you start crossing the street, didnt you know you were ofc gonna get hit by that car, the driver is drunk after all!Epic fail!"

I'm sure Georgia could have gotten some "REAL" peacekeepers in there ages ago  if they had wanted to.But why go through all that shit when you can bomb bomb bomb!Perhaps it never  felt like a good idea to submit the Ossetania-issue for international community though.

Both seperatist parts of Georgia declared themselves independent ages ago. Well, in mid- 90's I think. There has been a few larger clashes between seperatists and  Georgian army  since then.  With no significant reaction from Russia.
In past tho, Georgia didn't have a president who is very Nato horny and eager to switch camps.
It might not be a  very good idea to piss on the boots of a huge rutheless country next door.

It pisses me off how eager Nato is  to embrace all these small-ish ex-satelites of Soviet Union. Of Course it pisses Russia off and gets them all paranoid.
They should disband Nato and reform a military Union that better reflects the post-cold war world.Easier said than done though,

That would be interesting to know, might get some idea from these photos: http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551

Earlier today there was a mention of " about a hundred  Russian armored vehicles" driving deeper in Georgia.
Who the hell knows though.  First victim of war is truth and all that. Very little reliable info of anything available. You could say there is 3 sides here, and they all color everything they pass for press with their own lies.

South Ossetian (Or Russian)Seperatist PR Division interacting with few journalists:
http://www.vgtv.no/?id=17999

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Lawlz d00d, you're fucking funny.  (The Pravda thing)

That is just the way I see it.  Everything was fine until Georgia fired on the Russians, it's that simple.

We've established that Russia is trying to show the world they are back with a vengeance.  It's not all about the U.S. and China.

Did you see the footage of Georgian soldiers firing on the media?  They can't fight against the Russians so they go after innocent reporters.

Russia is DUMB for continuing to wage this military campaign.  It has shown everyone what it is capable of doing, and has successfully driven the Georgians out of the disputed provinces.  What's also dumb is having our secretary of state with the bad teeth cozy up to Sarkozy just to come off as being one of the "good guys."

I'm glad we have the Olympics, or else the airwaves would be flooded with this crappy story and the John Edwards story, if you even want to call it that.

[LeftToDecay]

We've established that Russia is trying to show the world they are back with a vengeance.  It's not all about the U.S. and China.

I think that's more or less what this all IS about.
When Soviet Union broke apart in early 90's, the entire area kinda slipped into a chaos. Some newly (re-)born countries recovered faster than others.
It took a very long time for Russia to recover and have certain institutions (like Army) working properly again.

It took almost decade of Putin until the country reached a state where they can start looking around and being active playter in international politics again.

And when they DID begin looking around, what did they see? - All these ex-satelite countries and even few Ex-soviet union countries busy getting their foor inbetween the door leading to Nato.
They see USA and Nato(for some odd reason) very eagerly and openly flirting with these countries pulling and luring them from one camp to another.

An entire ideological framework of cold war vanished together with Soviet Union and communism.
However, imho it looks like during 90's Nato and U.S chose to ignore the facr there is still a super power there, buried underneath the ruins of Soviet Union. And this super power, once finished with putting it's shit together, will have it's own interests and needs in the area, still.

Ending up surrounded by countries that either sleep together with U.S or even belong to Nato IS NOT Among Russia's interests. Through 90's  they were a complete mess and Nato as able to do as they please in the region. Now, about 20 years after death of Soviet Union Russia is finally feeling functional enough and influental enough to do something about Nato(quite ruthelessly) expanding to what is their turf.

And thats what the attack is all about. I doubt Russia gives a fuck about a single oil pipe running through Georgia or wether or not they get something as tiny as South Ossetia under their control.

It's about sending a message to countries in the region. "Check the map guys. remember what you have next door. Stop flirting with Nato."

[Grouse]

Did you see the footage of Georgian soldiers firing on the media?  They can't fight against the Russians so they go after innocent reporters.

eh dude those were russian troops firing on the media, A dutch reporter was actually killed by a russian cluster bomb.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Russia says they are pulling out tomorrow.

[Bob]

I guess you have already seen this but it is worth watching again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKhjehHTMW8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=W1yewjpmTdg&feature=related

[norway]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

Yeah this...Western (and Nordic) TV has lost all credibillity. Politicians runs the show and decieve their own people.
In Russia it's very bad aswell.

Luckily there is things like mobile phones, the internet that helps people get a broader scope of truth behind things.

[kaasupoltin]

Russia says they are pulling out tomorrow.

I think that doesn't mean anything at all.

[Bob]

Can anyone lend a spare tie to the poor man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSIXIwGLhI

[Bob]

Russia says they are pulling out tomorrow.

I think that doesn't mean anything at all.

Should they really pull out? After Georgia did this:

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=PB0g6SpA3eY&feature=related

(sorry, a bit too long).

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Russia is pretty much doing what it wants and saying Fuck You to the rest of the world. They are not adhering to the promise of a pullout again. Why even sign a truce if you are not going to adhere to it?

[LeftToDecay]

Should they really pull out? After Georgia did this:

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=PB0g6SpA3eY&feature=related

(sorry, a bit too long).

Sholud we really condem entire countries and deny their right of independence  based on heart breaking "I was in middle of it all! My wife heard the bombs dropping! This somehow means I know everything there is to know of the conflict, and am able to provide neutral factual info about it.  And now, dear watcher, here is what I want You to think of it all: -newsclips

That's a very cheap and easy way to make a news scoop.
They can be good and effective but " war is hell" is the only message they ever manage to tell.
you can bet your ass there is just as touching "Little Tatjana here lost her parents due to Russians/seperatists  bombing them to pieces!!" - clips out there.
None of them manages to tell anything of the overall situation but they are sooo good in helping to fold opinnions.

[Dr. Blutarsky]

No Confirmed Sign of Russian Withdrawal From Georgia

Monday, August 18, 2008



The U.S. State Department was also unable to confirm a Russian troop pullout.

Four Russian armored personnel carriers, each carrying about 15 men, rolled Monday afternoon from Gori to Igoeti, a crossroads town even closer to Tbilisi. Passing Georgian soldiers who sat by the roadside, the Russians moved into Igoeti then turned off onto a side road.

Russian troops and tanks have controlled a wide swath of Georgia for days, including the country's main east-west highway on which Gori sits, after a short but intense war that shocked the West. The Russian presence essentially cuts the small Caucasus Mountain nation in half and threatens pro-Western President Mikhail Saakashvili's efforts to keep its country in one piece after Russia supported the separatist regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Some Russian military vehicles headed Monday out of the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali toward Russia, the RIA-Novosti news agency reported, adding that the leader of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoity, asked Russia to establish a permanent base there.

According to the European Union-brokered peace plan signed by both Medvedev and Saakashvili, both sides are to pull back to the positions held before fighting broke out Aug. 7 in South Ossetia.

Nogovitsyn said the Russian troops are pulling back to South Ossetia and a security zone defined by a 1999 agreement of the "joint control commission" that had been nominally in charge of South Ossetia since it split from Georgia in the early 1990s.

Georgian and Russian officials could not immediately clarify the dimensions of the security zone. Nogovitsyn said "troops should not be in the territory of Georgia," but it was unclear if that excluded patrols.

"I think the Russians will pull out, but will damage Georgia strongly," Tbilisi resident Givi Sikharulidze said. "Georgia will survive, but Russia has lost its credibility in the eyes of the world."

Top American officials said Washington would have to rethink its relationship with Moscow.

The United States called an emergency meeting of NATO on Tuesday to discuss the alliance's worsening relationship with Russia, and U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice flew Monday to Europe to press the American viewpoint.

"I think there needs to be a strong, unified response to Russia to send the message that this kind of behavior, characteristic of the Soviet period, has no place in the 21st century," U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Sunday.

Rice said Russia can't use "disproportionate force" against its neighbor and still be welcomed into the halls of international institutions.

But neither would be specific about what punitive actions the United States or the international community might take.

For his part, Medvedev defended Russia's actions Monday and issued a stern warning.

"If someone thinks that our citizens can be killed, soldiers and officers who are peacekeepers killed with impunity, we will never permit that," he was quoted by Russian news agencies as telling World War II veterans in the city of Kursk before flying to Vladikavkaz, near South Ossetia, to hand out medals to Russians involved in the Georgia conflict. "Anyone who tries to do so will face a crushing response."

A U.S. official told The Associated Press the Russian military moved SS-21 missile launchers into South Ossetia on Friday ? missiles that could reach Tbilisi, a move Georgia surely would regard as intimidating.

Nogovitsyn disputed the claim, saying Russia saw no need to place SS-21s in the region.

The war broke out Aug. 7 after Georgia tried to retake control of South Ossetia. Russia, which had peacekeeping forces there, sent in thousands of reinforcements and immediately drove out the Georgian forces. Georgian troops also were forced out of another Russian-backed separatist region, the Black Sea province of Abkhazia.

Russian troops then pressed deep into Georgia, including surrounding Gori and in the Black Sea port of Poti. They also began a campaign to disable the Georgian military, destroying or carting away large caches of equipment. An AP photographer saw Russian troops guarding rows of captured Georgian military vehicles Sunday in Tskhinvali.

Russian tanks roamed the roads around Gori on Monday and Russian troops restricted access to the city. Most shops were closed and people milled around on the central square with its statue of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, a native.

The Georgian flag flew at half-mast atop city hall, whose walls were pockmarked by bullet holes. Outside, several hundred people waited in line to receive aid, pushing and jostling at a gate where municipal authorities were handing out packages of macaroni, beans and bread.

"This is a complete mess," said Georgy Toptiatkhshvili, 67, a retired engineer. They only let people in if you know somebody. People are pretty desperate now."

Nona Khizanishvili, 44, said she had fled Gori a week ago for an outlying village but returned Monday, trying to get to Tbilisi where her son lives.

"The city is a cold place now. People are fearful," she said. "No one knows what's going to happen."

Russian troops were seen in Kikhvi, a mostly ethnic Georgian village in South Ossetia, near where homes were burning Sunday days after the fighting had ended.

The British oil company BP PLC announced Monday it has stopped using a railway line that used to export up to 70,000 barrels of Azeri oil through Georgia every day. Georgian officials accused Russia of blowing up a key railway bridge on the line Saturday, severing the country's main east-west rail route.

The closure of the railway line from Tbilisi through Gori to the ports of Batumi and Poti on the Black Sea further limits BP's options to export Caspian oil.

BP last week shut down its Baku-Supsa oil pipeline ? which runs from Baku in Azerbaijan to Supsa on Georgia's Black Sea coast ? because of security concerns.

The European Union, meanwhile, said about 70,000 displaced people were around Tbilisi but there was no shortage of food even though Russian forces had blocked 11 trucks carrying in flour.

Daniella Cavini, a spokeswoman for the EU's humanitarian aid office, also said the EU is working with private relief groups to shelter refugees in schools, hospitals, military barracks and a tent camp near the Tbilisi airport.

U.S. Brig. Gen. Jon Miller arrived in Georgia to assess the need for further humanitarian aid. At least six U.S. military flights have arrived in Tbilisi, ferrying everything from cots, sleeping bags and medicine to emergency shelters and syringes.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405242,00.html

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Wait... it gets even better....

Defense Official: Russia Has Short Range Missiles in South Ossetia

 Russia has placed short range SS-21 missiles in South Ossetia, that could pose a threat to most major Georgian cities," including the capital, Tbilisi, a U.S.Defense official confirmed to FOX News on Monday.

"Anything such as that, or any other military equipment that was moved in would be in violation of this cease-fire and should be removed immediately," Pentagon Spokesman Bryan Whitman said. "The only forces that are permitted to remain under the cease fire agreement are the forces that were in there at the Aug. 6 time frame."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,405242,00.html

[cotis]

doesn't look good.