Axls "ideals" regarding his contributions to the world and "Atlas Shrugged".

[Thorazine Shuffle]

I hope this causes serious discussions, and no ramblings by some inept people that post.

Some of us know of Axls possible song called "Atlas Shrugged".  I'm not sure how many on the boards are familiar with this novel.

I have read this novel multiple times and have often considered bringing this as a topic of discussion here, but with my schedule and time outside of the forums I have been unable to.

I'm curious as to if Axl has the same ideals as Rand.  I understand her concept and concede to the fact that she is right and have always been a follower of her work, but I disregard her views on religion. 

The below excerpt is from Wikipedia.  Take a read of the brief synopsis and tell me what you think.




The theme of Atlas Shrugged is the role of the mind in man's existence and, consequently, presentation of the morality of rational self-interest.[3]

The main conflicts of the book surrounds the decision of the "individuals of the mind" to go on strike, refusing to contribute their inventions, art, business leadership, scientific research, or new ideas of any kind to the rest of the world. Society, they believe, hampers them by interfering with their work and underpays them by confiscating the profits and dignity they have rightfully earned. The peaceful cohesiveness of the world disintegrates, lacking those individuals whose productive work comes from mental effort. The strikers believe that they are crucial to a society that exploits them, denying them freedom or acknowledging their right to self-interest, and the gradual collapse of civilization is triggered by their strike.
The novel's title is an allusion to the Greek Titan Atlas who was described as literally holding the heavens on his shoulders (as per Atlas), discussing what might happen if those holding up civilization suddenly decided to stop doing so. In the novel, the mythological analogy comes during a conversation between two protagonists, Francisco d'Anconia and Hank Rearden, near the end of part two, chapter three, where Francisco (convincing Rearden that he is under-appreciated) tells Rearden that if he could suggest to Atlas that he do one thing, it would be to shrug.

In the world of Atlas Shrugged, society stagnates when independent productive achievers began to be socially demonized and even punished for their accomplishments, even though society had been far more healthy and prosperous by allowing, encouraging and rewarding self-reliance and individual achievement. Independence and personal happiness flourished to the extent that people were free, and achievement was rewarded to the extent that individual ownership of private property was strictly respected. The hero, John Galt, lives a life of laissez-faire capitalism as the only way to live consistent with his beliefs.

In addition to the plot's more obvious statements about the significance of industrialists and mental work to society, this explicit conflict is used by Rand to draw wider philosophical conclusions, both implicit in the plot and via the character's own statements. Positions are expressed on a variety of topics, including sex, politics, friendship, charity, childhood, and many others. Part of this is the theme that its broad array of ideas are in fact interrelated by their basic philosophy, and the significance of ideas to society and to one's life.

Atlas Shrugged portrays fascism, socialism and communism ? any form of state intervention in society ? as systemically and fatally flawed. However, Rand claimed that it is not a fundamentally political book, but that the politics portrayed in the novel are a result of her attempt to display her image of the ideal person and the individual mind's position and value in society.[4]

Rand argues that independence and individual achievement enable society to survive and thrive, and should be embraced. But this requires a "rational" moral code. She argues that, over time, coerced self-sacrifice causes any society to self-destruct.

She is similarly dismissive of faith beyond empirical reason, in a god or higher being, or anything else as an authority over one's own mind. The book positions itself against religion specifically, often directly within the characters' dialogue.

This could just be the ramblings of my mind and understanding of not only CD, but of Axl and how he deems his work.  The man has been vilified and treated harshly to the point that it out-weighs his huge achievements to the music world.

He walks his own path, but I've always wondered if his philosophies align with Rand.

[willow]

Weather one believes or not this would make for very interesting lyrics. Nothing wrong with reading material like this weather you believe it or not. We should all keep an open mind. I haven't read it, probably way over my head. but it sounds very interesting.

[Thorazine Shuffle]

It's long, but a very good read.

In a lot of colleges it's required reading.

I just think it would explain a few things and and I believe it could have a correlation to the music industry as a whole.  GNRs 4 (I don't count SI) sold what 80 million copies?  Axl could easily come back with CD and really break open a lot of sales.

He waits, perhaps feeling of the concept that the elite (and I consider GNR elite) doesn't act, then society (or in his world the music biz) falters.

He releases the album, the elite (GNR) save the day for the music industry. 

There are a ton of similarities that you can use considering this book covers such a wide range of concepts.

[younggunner]

im actually half way done with the book. when I get the time to finish it I will def be pming you...its such a fascinating book

[Fortus]

Tom Zutaut said that it was great song

[Neemo]

definately an interesting assumption, you think that is maybe how axl perceives himself? or maybe how axl feels that the media, fans, or ex-bandmates might perceive him? i havent read this book, but maybe i should add it to my already long list of books to read

[leatherebel]

WTF happened to the other Atlas Shrugged thread 
See, AdZ, that's what I was afraid of.....


Anyway, I'll re-post the paragraph here:

?You will follow me, she thought ? and felt as if the thought were not in words, but in the tension of her muscles, the tension of her will to accomplish a thing she knew to be outside her power, yet she knew with certainty that it would be accomplished and by her wish?no, she thought, not by her wish, but by its total rightness. You will follow me ? it was neither plea nor prayer nor demand, but the quiet statement of a fact, it contained the whole of her power of knowledge and the whole of the knowledge she had earned through the years. You will follow me, if we are what we are, you and I, if we live, if the world exists, if you know the meaning of this moment and can?t let it slip by, as others let it slip, into the senselessness of the unwilled and unreached. You will follow me ? she felt an exultant assurance, which was neither hope nor faith, but an act of worship for the logic of existence.?



Does it sound somewhat even remotely familiar to the style of certain statements or lyrics?
This isn't to prvoke a discussion of unreleased songs or forum rules, just a speculation of the possible influence of a book on a person's mind in general.




?Reality is that which exists; the unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to abandon reason. Truth is the recognition of reality; reason, man?s only means of knowledge, is his only standard of truth.?

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Is Axl that bothered as to what the rest of the world thinks of him? Does he see himself as "crucial" and/or "exploited"? Not a challenge, just a thought.

If this is a song he's written, it could be simply because he likes the book, rather than because he identifies with it. Hell, maybe he just thought it was a cool title.

[Jaakko]

Hell, maybe he just thought it was a cool title.

Yeah, he's said also that Chinese Democracy just sounds cool, that's why it's the title (1999 interview ?).

[spunton]

Quess Uncle Axl has had a lot of time to read books and watch films.

We have Chinese Democracy written about the film Kundun, Catcher in Rye an old book written by J.D Salinger and Atlas Shugged never heard of this before but from what ive read another good book.

Seems like alot of Axl songs are written after watching or reading.

Stu

[wight gunner]

Is Axl that bothered as to what the rest of the world thinks of him? Does he see himself as "crucial" and/or "exploited"? Not a challenge, just a thought.

If this is a song he's written, it could be simply because he likes the book, rather than because he identifies with it. Hell, maybe he just thought it was a cool title.

Regardless of the outward perseption, I think Axl did have issues about being accepted for who he is, rather than who people thought he was. Having had the shrink treatment myself,  I understand that an introvert can take an extrovert line to get through life. Its a case of the introvert not wanting to be trod on, so takes an extrovert role to cope with situations. Its survival and without knowing how an extrovert should behave, an out of control mindset is a common symptom of faking it. It isn't a deliberate ploy, its a way of getting through the day.

Here lies the genius. You are comfortable in your own skin being you, but the person people expects, doesn't disappoint them by not giving anything of the real you, but giving their personna. The song is based on the book ,it's that introverts  take on the world, what they feel and how the world works. I remember working out what life was really about in one of my downer moments, it made no sense when trying to explain it, but made perfect sense to me. I guess this might have been an Atlas Shrugged moment in my life, as it was all so clear, how would things be much different without me, yet the reality is they'd be fine...

I can't speak for anybody else, but I believe that to understand much about life, you need to go where people don't understand too much, does that make sense? But I do know from people that I have spoken to, in a medical sense, know exactly what I mean.

[GNRVahland]

I just got the book and have 3 weeks to read it and then return it to it's owner.  I've read "The fountainhead" before and I liked it very much and it could be about someone like Axl. Nice book and easier to read than "Atlas shrugged" they say.

Talking about "Catcher in the rye": the song is far more better than the book.......(IMO the book tells a story about a looser where Fountainhead is talking about loosers and a winner...)

[spunton]

Catcher is a good book, a really old book. Still good read, only thing the slang is some times hard to understand...

Never read The fountainhead..

[CheapJon]

I just got the book and have 3 weeks to read it and then return it to it's owner.  I've read "The fountainhead" before and I liked it very much and it could be about someone like Axl. Nice book and easier to read than "Atlas shrugged" they say.

Talking about "Catcher in the rye": the song is far more better than the book.......(IMO the book tells a story about a looser where Fountainhead is talking about loosers and a winner...)

the book is one of my favourite books.. never finished it though

[spunton]

My point was the books or films Axl has read or watch that have inspired him.

Not books that i think relate to him....

[gcluskey]

It's long, but a very good read.

In a lot of colleges it's required reading.

I just think it would explain a few things and and I believe it could have a correlation to the music industry as a whole.  GNRs 4 (I don't count SI) sold what 80 million copies?  Axl could easily come back with CD and really break open a lot of sales.

He waits, perhaps feeling of the concept that the elite (and I consider GNR elite) doesn't act, then society (or in his world the music biz) falters.

He releases the album, the elite (GNR) save the day for the music industry. 

There are a ton of similarities that you can use considering this book covers such a wide range of concepts.

Why does everyone dismiss Spaghetti Incident, its not as good as the other albums but I still really like it

[*Timothy*]

I just got the book and have 3 weeks to read it and then return it to it's owner.  I've read "The fountainhead" before and I liked it very much and it could be about someone like Axl. Nice book and easier to read than "Atlas shrugged" they say.

Talking about "Catcher in the rye": the song is far more better than the book.......(IMO the book tells a story about a looser where Fountainhead is talking about loosers and a winner...)

the book is one of my favourite books.. never finished it though

talk about an oxymoron.

[oldgunsfan]

I hope this causes serious discussions, and no ramblings by some inept people that post.

Some of us know of Axls possible song called "Atlas Shrugged".  I'm not sure how many on the boards are familiar with this novel.

I have read this novel multiple times and have often considered bringing this as a topic of discussion here, but with my schedule and time outside of the forums I have been unable to.

I'm curious as to if Axl has the same ideals as Rand.  I understand her concept and concede to the fact that she is right and have always been a follower of her work, but I disregard her views on religion. 

The below excerpt is from Wikipedia.  Take a read of the brief synopsis and tell me what you think.




The theme of Atlas Shrugged is the role of the mind in man's existence and, consequently, presentation of the morality of rational self-interest.[3]

The main conflicts of the book surrounds the decision of the "individuals of the mind" to go on strike, refusing to contribute their inventions, art, business leadership, scientific research, or new ideas of any kind to the rest of the world. Society, they believe, hampers them by interfering with their work and underpays them by confiscating the profits and dignity they have rightfully earned. The peaceful cohesiveness of the world disintegrates, lacking those individuals whose productive work comes from mental effort. The strikers believe that they are crucial to a society that exploits them, denying them freedom or acknowledging their right to self-interest, and the gradual collapse of civilization is triggered by their strike.
The novel's title is an allusion to the Greek Titan Atlas who was described as literally holding the heavens on his shoulders (as per Atlas), discussing what might happen if those holding up civilization suddenly decided to stop doing so. In the novel, the mythological analogy comes during a conversation between two protagonists, Francisco d'Anconia and Hank Rearden, near the end of part two, chapter three, where Francisco (convincing Rearden that he is under-appreciated) tells Rearden that if he could suggest to Atlas that he do one thing, it would be to shrug.

In the world of Atlas Shrugged, society stagnates when independent productive achievers began to be socially demonized and even punished for their accomplishments, even though society had been far more healthy and prosperous by allowing, encouraging and rewarding self-reliance and individual achievement. Independence and personal happiness flourished to the extent that people were free, and achievement was rewarded to the extent that individual ownership of private property was strictly respected. The hero, John Galt, lives a life of laissez-faire capitalism as the only way to live consistent with his beliefs.

In addition to the plot's more obvious statements about the significance of industrialists and mental work to society, this explicit conflict is used by Rand to draw wider philosophical conclusions, both implicit in the plot and via the character's own statements. Positions are expressed on a variety of topics, including sex, politics, friendship, charity, childhood, and many others. Part of this is the theme that its broad array of ideas are in fact interrelated by their basic philosophy, and the significance of ideas to society and to one's life.

Atlas Shrugged portrays fascism, socialism and communism ? any form of state intervention in society ? as systemically and fatally flawed. However, Rand claimed that it is not a fundamentally political book, but that the politics portrayed in the novel are a result of her attempt to display her image of the ideal person and the individual mind's position and value in society.[4]

Rand argues that independence and individual achievement enable society to survive and thrive, and should be embraced. But this requires a "rational" moral code. She argues that, over time, coerced self-sacrifice causes any society to self-destruct.

She is similarly dismissive of faith beyond empirical reason, in a god or higher being, or anything else as an authority over one's own mind. The book positions itself against religion specifically, often directly within the characters' dialogue.

This could just be the ramblings of my mind and understanding of not only CD, but of Axl and how he deems his work.  The man has been vilified and treated harshly to the point that it out-weighs his huge achievements to the music world.

He walks his own path, but I've always wondered if his philosophies align with Rand.

I never read Aran Rand; bur having read terry goodkind's The Sword of Truth Series (books 1-11 multiple times), it's safe to say I'm familiar with the objectivist philosophies-as he is an avid disciple

as for Axl-by his actions, and by his interviews, and by his music-it's difficult to tell

[izzbo]

Quess Uncle Axl has had a lot of time to read books and watch films.

We have Chinese Democracy written about the film Kundun, Catcher in Rye an old book written by J.D Salinger and Atlas Shugged never heard of this before but from what ive read another good book.

Seems like alot of Axl songs are written after watching or reading.

Stu

Chinese Democracy wasn't written about Kundun. Axl said that he was watching the movie before he left for the first New Years show in Las Vegas and commented on his feelings about the movie and China. He didn't say anything about writing the song based on Kundun.

 -= iZzBo =-

[GNRVahland]

Catcher is a good book, a really old book. Still good read, only thing the slang is some times hard to understand...
Never read The fountainhead...




Maybe the slang in CITR was lost in translation. I read in dutch; understand a little english but to read a book in english isn't "relaxing" anymore for me....

I liked the translation of The fountainhead and just started Atlas shrugged (in dutch). So far (p. 100 = 10%) so good and I think it's about winners or those who try to and losers / those who frustrate the winners .... Thinking about Axl struggling dealing with fans, critics, media and his personal life (however that may be, I don't know him) I can imagine he recognizes a lot and therefore maybe likes the books