2008 NFL Season - Discuss it all Here

[Bodhi]

McNabb HAS to win a Super Bowl to get the monkey off his back. He is in the perfect situation this year.

i wouldnt say a perfect situation...the Eagles are arguably the worst team left of the four with a banged up Westbrook..and lucky to have gotten this far...They had a first round bye playing the Vikings who blow, and if Plax plays in that game the Giants probably win easily...now he has to go on the road to play one of the most unpredictable teams in the league...and even if they get past the Cardinals, they are still NOWHERE near as good at the Steelers or Baltimore...The REAL Super Bowl is tomorrow night, 6:30 at Heinz Field...

[D]

One thing u aren't taking into account though Axl4prez is intangibles.  McNabb IS a choker, losing all the NFC Title games and puking/hyperventilating in the huddle sort of proves that dont u think?

Elway was Ice Cold in the clutch and king of the 2 minute drill.

[Axl4Prez2004]

One thing u aren't taking into account though Axl4prez is intangibles.  McNabb IS a choker, losing all the NFC Title games and puking/hyperventilating in the huddle sort of proves that dont u think?

Elway was Ice Cold in the clutch and king of the 2 minute drill.

D, the "hyperventilating/puking" myth is just that...a myth.  It's kinda like Sorry..."truth is the truth hurts..." it's easier to live with the lies than to accept the truth.  If that b.s. bolsters your argument, wonderful.  Use it if it makes you feel better, but it aint true.

What part of the 4th quarter situational stats don't you understand?  He plays BETTER in the 4th quarter (including tight games) than he does throughout the entire game.  "Chokers" don't do that.

Also, Donovan didn't "lose all those NFC Championship games."  They won the 4th one 27-10 over the Falcons with Donovan throwing 2 td's, 180 yds, and 39 yards rushing. (and they'll win tomorrow)

The year before that, without Donovan's CLUTCH throw on 4th and 26, down by 3 to the Packers, the Eagles wouldn't even have made it to the NFC Championship game...a game which Donovan struggled due to a lower rib injury incurred early in the game. 

The year before that, I'll agree, bad game against a dominant Bucs D.

The year before that he played a good game against the Rams...the Eagles defense gave up 29 points.

I can't wait for Donovan to kick ass in AZ tomorrow.  But, then again, you'll say "it's just an NFC Championship Game against an inferior opponent..."  oh well.  I'll be rooting for Donovan straight through the Super Bowl regardless.   

[D]

Ill take some of Donovan's teammates word cause if u watch, u can tell he is moving very slow.


And a 4th quarter in week 6 doesn't compare to a 4th quarter in a superbowl or NFC title game.

Im not trying to sound like McNabb sucks. He obviously is a great QB. I just don't like the Elway comparisons.

Elway is probably ranked 5-7 all time.

McNabb...... maybe 25-30.

U have to go by offenses.  Elway had one of the greatest arms in NFL history and he threw a lot of high chance passes down the field. McNabb gets ALOT of yardage with the 5 yard slants and run after catches.

[Axl4Prez2004]

One thing u aren't taking into account though Axl4prez is intangibles.  McNabb IS a choker, losing all the NFC Title games and puking/hyperventilating in the huddle sort of proves that dont u think?

Elway was Ice Cold in the clutch and king of the 2 minute drill.

^continued.
"intangibles" is a subjective term.  Back it up.  Nobody will deny Elway was incredible...but to say McNabb's a "choker" implies he's sucked under pressure which just isn't backed up by...... f a c t s !

Ha!  "take some of Donovan's teammates word..."  yeah, and ask Benedict Arnold what he thought of General Washington.
It's b.s. and you know it.  If he got all pansy-assed hysterical under pressure, don't you fucking think it would have happened more than once?  or affected his play in tight games??  Give me a break...or perhaps, even better, some facts.

[D]

Its just the way the league works. QB's get the glory but the blame. his record in those games give him that rap whether he deserves it or not.

Great thing is, he has the chance to shut the critics up this weekend.

If he loses to Arizona........ that just really would kill his legacy.

[D]

U are also bringing up the "Team" thing and yes, but Philly's D is 1000 times better than any D Elway ever had.

[Axl4Prez2004]

U are also bringing up the "Team" thing and yes, but Philly's D is 1000 times better than any D Elway ever had.

All the more reason he should have better numbers than what he has!  Completion %:  Elway 56.9%, McNabb 58.9%
Yards/game virtually identical, about 220 to 218.8 in Elway's favor.  Passer rating McNabb big here with 85.9, Elway only 79.9.  Oh, and the big fallacy about McNabb only having dinks and dunks for 5 yard gains is just that.  6.8 yards/attempt, vs. Elway's 7.1 yards/attempt.  (huge difference?  I don't think so.)

Now, let's try 4th quarter #'s.  (I wanted to isolate down to just 4th quarter with game within 7 points, but they only had that for Elway's last 2 seasons)  How did John's look in his last 2 "glory years?"  Comp. % 48.2 and 51.2. 4td's and 4 int's. pass rating 64.8% and 72.5% 

Yes, those are Elway not in his prime, but they were during his Super Bowl years...and I think it says a lot...and well whaddaya know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Look at this D.  In Elway's 3 last seasons...
They had 2 teams in the AFC allow less points in '96.
They had 1 team in the AFC allow less points in '97.
They had 3 teams in the AFC allow less points in '98.

[D]

I was talking more about the D's in Elways first 9 years.

They definitely had a superb team in his final 3 all around.

McNabb is a great QB but with any pro sport, it is about Championships. Elway has 2, he has 0. So until he can win one, there just isn't a discussion.


U take somebody like Troy Aikman. He really didn't have stats that would blow you out of the water,b ut the fact he has 3 rings and made the plays when they mattered, he has a great status.

I think what also hurts McNabb is, that one year he was injured, AJ Feely stepped in and they didn't miss a beat.

When I think of QB's, I think of guys that if they were injured, the team would be finished which is why I think Brady took a little bit of a hit this season with how Matt Cassel performed.

Manning is also sort of thought of as a choker also as he doesn't have great postseason success either.

[Axl4Prez2004]

So, one myth busted.  See how easy that is?  Yes, Elway had an excellent defense.  Now, how do you explain away McNabb's superior play in the 4th quarter?

4th Quarter Performance!!!!

Elway '91-'98:      38td's, 27 int's   (situational stats not available before '91)
McNabb '01-'08:   44td's, 17 int's

Elway '91-'98:       58.2%  completion %.  
McNabb '01-'08:    59.1 % completion %.

Elway '91-'98:       81.9  passer rating
McNabb '01-'08:    87.9  passer rating

Remember, facts.  Intangibles should provide tangible results.  The above isn't subjective.  Those are the facts.  McNabb is a future Hall of Fame quarterback.  I know a lot of folks don't like the guy's personality, but he's a winner.                          


D, did you read what you wrote??

"I was talking more about the D's in Elways first 9 years.

They definitely had a superb team in his final 3 all around.

McNabb is a great QB but with any pro sport, it is about Championships. Elway has 2, he has 0. So until he can win one, there just isn't a discussion."

D, you're smarter than that.  Without a defense he had zero championships and many chokes!  Come on!

Then you bring up Aikman and guess what, neither you nor I have his #'s.  How was he in the clutch? 

Then you brought up Feeley...wasn't he 1-3 in his last stint?  Gimme a fucking break.

btw, How did Cassel do in the playoffs this year?  Oh yeah, that's right, he wasn't in them. 

Fouts, Marino, Kelly, Moon...no championships...and McNabb's better than at least half of those quarterbacks.

D, if McNabb is such a choker, why are his 4th quarter numbers so impressive?  Why are his 4th quarter #'s so good in tight games at the end?  We had a similar discussion in the 2007 NFL thread where you tried saying Vince Young was a better clutch qb than McNabb...and I did the same thing, exhaustively compiling situational stats that showed Young was HORRENDOUS in tight games at the end, where McNabb was actually BETTER than his already gaudy stats quarters 1-4.

McNabb and the Eagles are going to thump the Cards...and you still won't give McNabb his due.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

BAH!

His only Super Bowl appearance came at the expense of Michael Vick.

[D]

because, u are judged by what u do in the big moments.

Dirk Nowitzki is my favorite NBA Player and he is one of the greatest players of all time statistically HOWEVER, in the playoffs and finals he is a fucking choke artist.

I don't care if McNabb throws for 400 yards Sunday and 5tds and 0 picks.

If they are down 2 with 2 minutes to go, and he throws a pick 6. that is choking. The rest of the game doesn't matter.

Wins and losses matter more than stats. McNabb has lost 3 NFC Title games and a Super Bowl.

He can't win the big game and until he does, he won't get his credit.

No body cares who finishes 2nd.

Elway could have a 0td 4 pick day, but if u got him the ball with a shot to win, he would deliver almost every single time.



Give me a break on Matt Cassel. It isn't his fault they went 11-5 and missed the playoffs. If he starts from day 1 next season, I guarantee he will be just as effective as Brady. NE were beat up with injuries and he didn't get ready till bout his 3rd start.

For a rookie taking his first snaps, he was unbelievable.


On McNabb, yes u are right. He has to win a Super Bowl to get the kind of credit u are talking about.

For u to mention McNabb in the same sentence with Elway is u calling McNabb a top 5 all time QB. Surely to God u aren't calling McNabb an all time top 5 QB.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Top 5?  No.  But I do know Joe Namath is in the HOF...173 td and 220 int Joe Namath.  I do know that Donovan's a better quarterback than Joe Namath.  Super Bowl III was one game.  Namath's not worthy of the Hall for one game...no matter how cool and nice the guy seems.

I gave you some names...Kelly, Fouts, Moon...you don't think Donovan matches up to these guys?  Guys without rings there huh?  Well?

btw, comparing Cassel to Brady is a joke.  You've gotta be kidding D.  Gimme a break.  Brady is one of the top 2 quarterbacks ever.  period.  Joe Montana and Tom Brady.  No question in my mind. 

Elway was amazing.  I am not telling you McNabb is better than Elway.  What I am trying to give you is a, "Wow, I never realized McNabb's done so much."  Because he has...and Elway is brought up because he's one of the few great qb's (like McNabb) who hasn't had jack-shit at the receiver position.
Might I also add, Elway's not in my top-5 all-time.  Sorry.  Love him as an automatic hof'er, but he's not top-5 in my book.

I'll also disagree with the b.s. "nobody remembers who finishes 2nd."  30 other quarterbacks will beg to differ.  Their asses already lost!  I think Jim Kelly deserves to be a HOFer for the very reason he helped get his team to the SB 4 times. 

More b.s., is it still choking if a receiver runs the wrong route and a pass is picked off?  Your generalizations are ridiculous here.

one last thing.  What part of "SITUATIONAL STATS" don't you get???  A "choke artist" doesn't play well in tight games (less than 7 point difference) with the game on the line in the 4th quarter!  It's not "just a stat!" 

Dilfer's got a ring...Brad fucking Johnson has a ring.  No, a ring doesn't make or break HOF entry, sorry.  Perhaps you could boycott the NFL HOF when Donovan's inducted...because he will be in Canton.   

   

[gilee7]

The "Donovan McChoke" stuff is only because of the Superbowl loss and his record in NFC Championship games. As an Eagles' fan, I've seen the majority of McNabb's games, and he is in no way a "choke artist." He doesn't lose games like Favre does. McNabb plays just as well, if not better, in tight games down the stretch. The 3rd and 20 play last week was vintage McNabb--- just like the 4th-and-28 play against GB a few years ago in the playoffs. People on here act as if, any time a game is on the line, McNabb's gonna throw an INT. That almost never happens. Often McNabb drives down the field and puts his team in a position to win. I trust Donovan 100% in those situations. It's Andy Reid that sometimes gets a little retarded and starts calling questionable plays when the game is on the line.

For someone who has spent the majority of his career playing with WRs like Todd Pinkston, James Thrash, Freddie Mitchell, etc., McNabb's stats are ridiculous. People talk about Kurt Warner . . . Put McNabb on the same team as Fitzgerald and Boldin and he shatters every passing record in existence.

I don't understand why McNabb catches so much flak. I don't see people on here dissing Peyton Manning, yet he's been one-and-done in the playoffs SIX times. McNabb has NEVER been one-and-done.

I'm surprised at the number of people in the media picking the Cardinals to win tomorrow. More people seem to believe that the Cardinals will beat the Eagles than they think the Ravens will beat the Steelers, even though the Ravens-Steelers played two incredibly close games during the regular season, with one game being decided by a TD pass that probably shouldn't have counted. Yet the Eagles-Cardinals game wasn't even close.

I think the Eagles win big, again.

I also think the Steelers win by a sizable margin.

Eagles-Steelers Superbowl. The Eagles beat them in week 3, sacking Big Ben eight times. And I think the Eagles are a much better team now than they were then . . .

[Lord Kayoss]

I was rooting hard against the Pitt Panthers tonight as they were taken down by our Louisville Cardinals in college hoops, but tomorrow I'm all behind the Steelers.  I'm hoping they take it all this year.

[gilee7]

A good article about Donovan McNabb and the "tough love" of Philly fans:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkfjxJirK0iMNdKBCO0y3axDubYF?slug=dw-sympathyformcnabb011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Axl4Prez2004]

A good article about Donovan McNabb and the "tough love" of Philly fans:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AkfjxJirK0iMNdKBCO0y3axDubYF?slug=dw-sympathyformcnabb011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Gilee...great posts! ^

I did post that link a couple pages back...Sandman doesn't believe it.  He's been quoted as saying 90% of the fans in Philly love McNabb, and that it's just a very vocal 10% that dislike him.  Listen, I live in Delaware and talk with Eagles' fans all year long!  Sandman is just flat-out wrong.  It isn't "tough" love it's "psychotic" love.

Back to D's favorite, stats.  Let's talk "winner."
Peyton Manning's post-season record as a starter is 7-8
McNabb's is now 9-5.
Donovan's Regular Season record as a starter is now 91-45-1.  That is sick! 

I'll repeat myself a little here...Namath (173td-220int), Fouts (no rings and 0-2 in AFC Championship games), Moon (should have been a lock for the CFL Hall of Fame)...and Jim Kelly.  Please tell me right now you think Donovan McNabb is not as great as these HOF quarterbacks...and try typing with a straight face.   

[freedom78]

Is anyone else looking forward to todays games and the way in which they might end this "Donovan: The Pros and Cons" debate? 

NEW TOPIC: Scott Norwood: Choke Artist or NFC East Double Agent

[Axl4Prez2004]

D!  Stop logging in as Freedom trying to change the subject! 

...besides, everybody knows Norwood could give a crap about the NFC East.  He was trying to sabotage Jim Kelly's HOF aspirations, everybody knows that! 

My questions are still begging to be answered.  Namath, Fouts, Kelly, Moon.  Puh-lease!

I can't wait until Philly pounds the hell out of AZ.  The Steelers game will be amazing...it's all going to be so much fun!  Culminating in Mr. and Mrs. Axl4Prez's annual Super Bowl Pizza feast celebration!  I can't wait!  Eagles-Steelers. 
Go Donovan!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dr. Blutarsky]

All 4 teams I am not really a fan of, but I don't have a dislike for any of them either. Probably the most dull postseason for me in that regard....