2008 NFL Season - Discuss it all Here

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

All this talk about the Cowboys dumping T.O. is making me very happy. I hope they do dump his punk ass quick! Maybe people are now starting to wake up and realize you cannot win with these pricks on your team.

Thug life, homie.

[oldgunsfan]

Axl4Prez, I thought about you when I read this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/McNabb-the-new-John-Elway;_ylt=Arem5PS4.8B2H7v9LS9A69FDubYF?urn=top,133583

Thanks Gilee!     But I'll tell ya what.  That writer should have used my posts from here at HTGTH in his article.  The black-white thing just muddies the water...use statistics!  McNabb has better stats than Elway over his first 9 seasons. (and just as many SB rings )  That's right, and most folks don't know it.  Just sayin'.

Go Donovan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if the Eagles lose Sunday and McNabb goes 1-4 in NFC Championship Games and 0-1 in Super Bowls; do you think people will still be comparing him to Elway?

Personally, I think it's a huge stretch to be comparing the two in the first place.  Even though after 9 years in the league Elway still hadn't won a Super Bowl; he was however, UNDEFEATED in AFC Championship Games and led CLASSIC, ALL-TIME DRIVES, 2 minute drives to get his team to the SuperBowl.

Didn't he wind up 5-0 in AFC Championship Games and 2-3 in Super Bowls?

Like I said, I just think it's a HUGE STRETCH. 

[G2N2R]

Tampa Bay just fired Gruden and the GM of the team.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Chuck won't be without a job for long.

[D]

wonder if he could go back to Oakland? they've been shit since they traded him.

Dallas, PLEASE demote Phillips to D Coordinator, Fire Garrett and hire Gruden!

[Drew]

It's crazy how Tampa Bay waited this long after the regular season to finally make their decision.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Axl4Prez, I thought about you when I read this article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/McNabb-the-new-John-Elway;_ylt=Arem5PS4.8B2H7v9LS9A69FDubYF?urn=top,133583

Thanks Gilee!     But I'll tell ya what.  That writer should have used my posts from here at HTGTH in his article.  The black-white thing just muddies the water...use statistics!  McNabb has better stats than Elway over his first 9 seasons. (and just as many SB rings )  That's right, and most folks don't know it.  Just sayin'.

Go Donovan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So if the Eagles lose Sunday and McNabb goes 1-4 in NFC Championship Games and 0-1 in Super Bowls; do you think people will still be comparing him to Elway?

Personally, I think it's a huge stretch to be comparing the two in the first place.  Even though after 9 years in the league Elway still hadn't won a Super Bowl; he was however, UNDEFEATED in AFC Championship Games and led CLASSIC, ALL-TIME DRIVES, 2 minute drives to get his team to the SuperBowl.

Didn't he wind up 5-0 in AFC Championship Games and 2-3 in Super Bowls?

Like I said, I just think it's a HUGE STRETCH. 

Classic Guns Fan, Elway was in 3 Super Bowls in the '80's and lost every one of them throwing 2 td's and 6 int's.  His first SB wasn't bad with 304 yards passing, 1 td and 1 int.  The next two were awful! 14 of 38 for 257, 1 td and 3int's.  Then the next year 10 of 26 for 108 yards no td's and 2 ints.
In the '91-'92 season, Elway threw the game-winning td...to the other team, the Bills.  Down 10-0, and Elway out with a bruised thigh, the backup Kubiak came in and completed 11 of 12 passes and ran for a td late in the game.  3 quarters, and Elway generated 0 points.

btw, McNabb has never lost a 1st round playoff game. 

The comparison is tough for folks to fathom because of what Elway accomplished verrrry late in his career with the 2 Super Bowl victories.  Comparing McNabb to Elway at this stage of his career is actually quite fair.  McNabb's numbers blow Elway's out of the water.  There's no comparison.  McNabb's are faaaar greater.  McNabb, in my eyes, with a few more seasons like he's already had, is a sure-fire Hall-of-Famer...even without a Super Bowl victory.  That said, I firmly believe Donovan will be playing in another Super Bowl this year.  I'll root for the Ravens because the Eagles and McNabb will have a better chance to win against the Ravens than the Steelers.

Wow!  Gruden to Dallas would be pretty cool.    ...but it aint gonna happen.    D, you'll just have to "Wade" out '09. 

[D]

I got to looking at Elway's stats from the 80's and u know, they were pretty shitty in a lot of ways. Horrible TD to INT Ratio but he didn't have any receivers or a RB I can remember.

also, McNabb benefits a lot from Reid's pass happy system. Donovan also throws a lot of pretty low percentage dump offs also.

McNabb HAS to win a Super Bowl to get the monkey off his back. He is in the perfect situation this year.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I got to looking at Elway's stats from the 80's and u know, they were pretty shitty in a lot of ways. Horrible TD to INT Ratio but he didn't have any receivers or a RB I can remember.

also, McNabb benefits a lot from Reid's pass happy system. Donovan also throws a lot of pretty low percentage dump offs also.

McNabb HAS to win a Super Bowl to get the monkey off his back. He is in the perfect situation this year.

Devil's advocate would say with such a high pass to run ratio, teams are obviously expecting the pass...why can't they stop it? 

btw, Jim Kelly is a Hall of Famer.  'nuff said.  McNabb doesn't HAVE to win a SB.  It would be very nice though!!!   

[D]

Then again, Kelly did lose superbowls and not Conference title games.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Then again, Kelly did lose superbowls and not Conference title games.

8 playoff appearances...4 super bowls...4 times didn't make it to the afc championship game. you can't lose afc championship games if you don't make it there.

This could go back and forth forever. 

[Sober_times]

Then again, Kelly did lose superbowls and not Conference title games.

8 playoff appearances...4 super bowls...4 times didn't make it to the afc championship game. you can't lose afc championship games if you don't make it there.

This could go back and forth forever. 

Yeah but Kelly and the bills dominated the afc for 4 straight years. Their best chance to win went wide right.  They were part of an inferior conference. But I still think, even though they didnt win any superbowls, going to four straight is still one hell of an accomplishment. Kelly was a great QB.

McNabb could be a hall of famer but everyone knows its more than just numbers. Elway lost 3 superbowls but faced far superior teams in all three. Just like Mcnabb faced a superior team when they lost to New England. Its an interesting discussion but we'll have plenty of time over the next few years to debate whether he belongs in the hall of fame.

Elway is more famous because he got the come back label. He was a media darling for almost his entire career. They would only talk about how good he was and he had davis to thank for those superbowls. Yeah he was good in em but I honestly believe if it wasn't for Davis, Elway would never have won a superbowl. Just like I believe if Miami had ever gotten Marino a 1000 yard rusher (which he never had throughout his entire career) he would have won some superbowls. Damn Don and his pass only offense cost Marino rings.

Really though, if McNabb continues to be in the play-offs and put up decent numbers than he'll be in the hall of fame even if he doesnt win a superbowl. Hes still got a few years left to polish up his resume.

[Axl4Prez2004]

High_Times, I agree with you.  Nice post. ^

That said, just imagine if McNabb actually had a great receiver...or at the very least, one great receiver.  Oh man!  I think Elway is brought up in the McNabb comparison for that very reason...he never had a great receiver, yet he put up some nice numbers and won. 

Marino did have Duper and Clayton, all-pro awesome receivers.  Aikman had Irvin.  Favre had Sharpe and a younger Driver, and a young Jennings, etc. 

Brady is a freak of nature.  Automatic HOF, easily the best qb of his era.  Give him Randy and he tosses 50 tds.  Insane.

The one year Donovan had TO, he puts up 32 and 8.  Peyton's always had Marvin, and then he got Wayne!  They've got 2 HOF, great wide receivers.  Yeah, I still think Peyton's awesome, a HOF'er automatically, but I do wonder where he'd be without Marvin and Reggie.

How about Kurt Warner?  Here's a guy who I think probably needs another SB ring to get into the Hall.  McNabb can still get there without another ring...but then again, look what Warner had...Holt and Bruce, and now Fitzgerald and Boldin.  It's not often a qb has 2 #1 wide receivers.  I bet Carson Palmer's pissed as hell he's been hurt while he's had the luxury of 2 #1 wide receivers with TJ and Ochocinco.

I'm so psyched for tomorrow's games.  The Steelers game is forecasted to start with a windchill lower than NEGATIVE 20!!!     They will be running on adrenaline and every hit will hurt like hell!!!!!!!      

[freedom78]

Peyton's always had Marvin, and then he got Wayne!  They've got 2 HOF, great wide receivers.  Yeah, I still think Peyton's awesome, a HOF'er automatically, but I do wonder where he'd be without Marvin and Reggie.

Just look at the receivers who've looked really good in Indy and then fizzled or dropped off afterward...Pathon, Stokeley, and so on.  Clearly guys made better by Manning. 

I also like Dallas Clark, who is snubbed by the Pro Bowl every year in favor of bigger stars with worse numbers (*cough* ANTONIO GATES! *cough*).  I mean...it's not like Clark caught 17 more passes for 144 more yards in one FEWER game or anything. 

Brady is a freak of nature.  Automatic HOF, easily the best qb of his era.  Give him Randy and he tosses 50 tds.  Insane.

Surely HOF, but I fail to see the logic of how having a target to which you can be much LESS accurate makes you a better QB.  Better numbers that year, sure, but not a better passer.  That's like saying that banging hookers means you have more game. 

And, no, I don't give you "best qb of his era" either, as I'm sure you expected.   

Seriously, this thread is about the only one where we disagree on anything.

[C0ma]

Just look at the receivers who've looked really good in Indy and then fizzled or dropped off afterward...Pathon, Stokeley, and so on.  Clearly guys made better by Manning.

Surely HOF, but I fail to see the logic of how having a target to which you can be much LESS accurate makes you a better QB.  Better numbers that year, sure, but not a better passer.  That's like saying that banging hookers means you have more game.

Pathon and Stokeley were role players in the Indy Offense... Look at the recievers Brady won his 3 Super Bowls with. They all left New England and did nothing.
The first year he gets a true #1 reciever he throws 50 TD's (against only 8 int's) the team goes 16-0, he wins an MVP then runs into a more well prepared Giants team to fall just short of total perfection.

In my eyes winning is as big a part of the game as statistics, and there hasn't been a greater QB in his generation.

[sandman]

I got to looking at Elway's stats from the 80's and u know, they were pretty shitty in a lot of ways. Horrible TD to INT Ratio but he didn't have any receivers or a RB I can remember.

also, McNabb benefits a lot from Reid's pass happy system. Donovan also throws a lot of pretty low percentage dump offs also.

McNabb HAS to win a Super Bowl to get the monkey off his back. He is in the perfect situation this year.

exactly. it was a different team, different system, and a different era. comparing their stats doesn't really tell you much. even if you do, mcnabb's aren't much better. and that's before you factor in the comeback reputation vs. the choked in the SB and couldn't call plays reputation.

mcnabb right now is not even close to being a hall of famer. if he only has a few more good seasons, he's got no shot. it takes alot to get in without a SB win. if he wins a SB this year he's STILL not a lock. but he worth having a discussion about. 

anyway, this debate should wait 3 weeks. we'll have alot more information at that time.

Go Birds!!! but i gotta admit, i have a bad feeling about this game.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Sandman, you honestly believe Jim Kelly is a better quarterback than Donovan McNabb?  That's funny.

McNabb is headed for the HOF...I hate to disappoint you.  The guy is a winner.  Not only that, he's got many years left to pad his resume.  The win over AZ to get him into his 2nd Super Bowl will be ridiculed since AZ is a pretty lousy team overall.  A loss to Pittsburgh will give you more fuel to pour on your effigy of #5.

btw, your line about mcNabb's stats not being that much better is compleeeetely laughable.  You are wrong.  I've posted their stats here in the past.  McNabb's are downright gaudy over his 1st 9-10 years.  Elway's are eh.
Should I re-post them to make you look silly?  For your sake I won't do that.  Oh crap, I can't help myself!

First 9 Years in the NFL:
Completion %  John Elway              54.7%
                        Donovan McNabb    58.4%

Rushing td's     J.E.     20
                        D.M.    24

Touchdowns/Interceptions      J.E.   148/140
                                                D.M.  171/79     (that is fucking sick!  not even close!!!)

Now, what makes the touchdown numbers amazing, as if the low interceptions weren't enough, he's done it in 15 less games.

Go Eagles!

[Axl4Prez2004]

^ continued...

Now, look at McNabb's 2008 situational stats: (comp %, yds, td, int, passer rating)

4th Quarter     62.2        903         8    0    101.6

4th Quarter within 7 60.4    674    5    0    96.7

Overall                      60.4        3916        23             11            86.4

I thought "choke artists" were supposed to get worse in the 4th quarter?  Perhaps this "choker" label is not valid...ya think?

[freedom78]

Just look at the receivers who've looked really good in Indy and then fizzled or dropped off afterward...Pathon, Stokeley, and so on.  Clearly guys made better by Manning.

Surely HOF, but I fail to see the logic of how having a target to which you can be much LESS accurate makes you a better QB.  Better numbers that year, sure, but not a better passer.  That's like saying that banging hookers means you have more game.

Pathon and Stokeley were role players in the Indy Offense... Look at the recievers Brady won his 3 Super Bowls with. They all left New England and did nothing.
The first year he gets a true #1 reciever he throws 50 TD's (against only 8 int's) the team goes 16-0, he wins an MVP then runs into a more well prepared Giants team to fall just short of total perfection.

In my eyes winning is as big a part of the game as statistics, and there hasn't been a greater QB in his generation.

Of course, it's also a team sport, which for some reason we always neglect when comparing great players.  We want it to be an individual comparison, but it just isn't.  You can't talk Manning without talking Harrison any more than you could talk Montana without saying "Oh, yeah, and there was that Rice fella".  Given that, it's no surprise that NE's two championships in a row can with the #1 and #2 scoring defenses...nor is it surprising that Indy's run also came after their defense improved (their stats for that year aren't great, but once Sanders returned for the playoffs they had a strong defense again).  

[Bodhi]

wonder if he could go back to Oakland? they've been shit since they traded him.

i would give my left nut for the Raiders to get Gruden back...