Out of Patience, Give Us Chinese Democracy! Antimusic.com

[ppbebe]

Not really. But again, what else is there really to discuss?

If you think so, you don't have to discuss anything. 
Don't you just love arguing for the sake of argument and hunt for whatever good opponent to try your skill in debating?

[younggunner]

Let me get this straight, you're happy and content with whining about shit for YEARS that you have no control over?

Again, Im not whining. Im just discussing what I see. So just because you dont have control over something means that you cant discuss it?

Thats weird because you have a site dedicated to something you have no control over.

Well, you just said there's nothing to be happy about.

What a positive outlook on things you have!

Cheer up!


Somebody needs a hug!

Trying to avoid the question with not so funny responses...
again.....what is this positive outlook that you speak of and confirmed by who?

Do you have any ideas on why this might not have happened?

See, this is where you're supposed to think......

Im sure I can come up with a few assumptions.

I mean 99% of the bands out there use communication...but your right......im sure there are some extenuating circumstances that prohibit Axl from making some kind of statement. silly me

[jarmo]

Let me get this straight, you're happy and content with whining about shit for YEARS that you have no control over?

Again, Im not whining. Im just discussing what I see. So just because you dont have control over something means that you cant discuss it?!

Oh wow. Talk about missing the point.

Posting about how upset you are over something you can't do nothing about. Does that seem like it could get tiring after a few years?

Oh, obviously not to you!

Maybe on some other site your last 100 posts look like this "the album's not out yet ".... That looks like a really interesting debate to me!

Thats weird because you have a site dedicated to something you have no control over.

A site fueled by my frustration? No...

Trying to avoid the question with not so funny responses...
again.....what is this positive outlook that you speak of and confirmed by who?

What the fuck are you talking about? Do I need somebody to confirm the fact that you say there's nothing to be positive about?

Do you have a spokesperson I could get it confirmed from?




You're the one claiming nothing has changed and there's nothing to be positive about.

Yet when I tell you things aren't the same, you just ignore it.

How come? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the album is done?

Im sure I can come up with a few assumptions.

Ok, do go on.

I mean 99% of the bands out there use communication...but your right......im sure there are some extenuating circumstances that prohibit Axl from making some kind of statement. silly me

Where's that list?

I asked you to come up with something and you fail..... Isn't that what a debate is supposed to be about?

Your idea of a debate is obviously ignoring facts and trying to skip questions. Or?

I thought this was supposed to be a debate. Isn't that what you were after? Can you be that "objective true fan" you want to make us believe you are? Can you put your bitterness aside and think from the other point of view for a second or two? Is it asking too much?




But yet you fail to answer any kind of question that requires you to think. Instead you make some kind of smart-ass remark..... Kinda weak.

Why is that? I guess now you can ask me "why do you ignore my questions" and round we go.....



It looks to me like you're not after a debate after all.... What are you after?




/jarmo

[Janabis]

I think it explained everything when he said this site is not really a discussion board, but rather like a "newspaper" where he "chooses what to publish."

It was an analogy for all those of you who don't understand the concept that even if you have Freedom Of Speech, somebody decides what gets printed, broadcast etc.

Just because you have Freedom Of Speech doesn't mean your local paper is gonna print every news article.

One of the main reasons for message boards to exist in the first place is because people don't like having one person in charge of what gets published. Your analogy was exactly right, this site is not like a forum, it is more like a publication or newspaper.

Same goes for Internet sites. We have the right to decide what we think can/should be posted on our own sites.

Agree 100%. You have the ability to ban/silence whomever you choose.

"We're not supposed to be some kind of "objective source of GN'R information". That's the misconception some of you have."

I was definitely under that misconception, and I bet most of the people reading this were as well. I'm just happy to see him being honest about it here.

Somebody who's upset about something is objective? No, don't think so. That emotion will probably make him be biased.

Why is it that published works aimed at ridiculing the band are considered "objective"? Negativity sells, and when you write a negative article it's automatically objective because it doesn't favor the subject?

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here, but you're missing the point entirely. Any one side of a story may or may not be truthful and objective, but if you only let one point of view be heard (by deleting comments from insiders and former band members such as Merck) then you are preventing anyone from forming an honest and balanced opinion and that's where this site loses its integrity.

[jarmo]

One of the main reasons for message boards to exist in the first place is because people don't like having one person in charge of what gets published. Your analogy was exactly right, this site is not like a forum, it is more like a publication or newspaper.

How stupid of me! I always thought it was a place for like minded people to get together in one place.

No matter where in the world you are, you can go to a GN'R fan site and get in touch with other GN'R fans....


Now I see, it's a place where no matter where in the world you are, you can go to a GN'R fan site and read about how much it sucks to be a GN'R fan!

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse here, but you're missing the point entirely. Any one side of a story may or may not be truthful and objective, but if you only let one point of view be heard (by deleting comments from insiders and former band members such as Merck) then you are preventing anyone from forming an honest and balanced opinion and that's where this site loses its integrity.

So you're saying people should be allowed to form their "objective" opinion based on things that aren't true?

That's what this is about. You want to be able to "discuss" stuff that's not necessarily true.



I've seen this before. As soon as somebody says something negative about the band it should be posted and discussed. It's pretty much taken as the "truth" by some fans because it's not coming from the GN'R camp. Who we all know loves to fuck with their fans!   

You have a band member saying something, but that's not good enough for you. You want to hear what others say about it..... It doesn't matter if what you've heard is 100% true. You want to hear the bullshit stories so you can form your honest opinion.....


This to me is like being in a court of law and having a witness who you know is not telling the truth since the person wasn't even at the scene of the crime. But hey, the jury should listen to the person to form an honest opinion.




/jarmo

[younggunner]

What the fuck are you talking about? Do I need somebody to confirm the fact that you say there's nothing to be positive about?

Do you have a spokesperson I could get it confirmed from?

You said there was a positive outlook. I asked what is the positive outlook? whats so hard to understand?\

You're the one claiming nothing has changed and there's nothing to be positive about.

Yet when I tell you things aren't the same, you just ignore it.

How come? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the album is done?

What isnt the same. You still havnt told me. We are pretty much still in the same situation as we have been.

How come? Why do you keep ignoring the fact that the album is done?

Done according to whom?
The album has been done a few times over the yrs.

The album has been deemed ready to be mastered and in the lables hands a few times over the yrs.

We dont know the status of the album...just like we never did the whole time...hence things havnt changed

Where's that list?

I asked you to come up with something and you fail..... Isn't that what a debate is supposed to be about?

No, you didnt ask me for a list. You asked me if I knew of any reasons.

I dont need to come up with a list.

i would assume that Axl hasnt said anything because he doesnt want to make promises he cant keep. He knows the situation can change on a dime so instead of saying something he just says nothing.

But yet you fail to answer any kind of question that requires you to think. Instead you make some kind of smart-ass remark..... Kinda weak.

Why is that? I guess now you can ask me "why do you ignore my questions" and round we go.....



It looks to me like you're not after a debate after all.... What are you after?

You dont ask questions dude. And if you do I answer them. get off your high horse. Is this your new theme now..."think"?

There is nothing to think about. The situation is what it is. If I wanted to sugar coat it, I would THINK of every possible excuse/copout/ and technicality and make an argument for the band like you do.

I already know that there are certain things the band cant do. Or is not their fault. I dont need to announce them or announce that I have thought about them. I also know that there are things imo that the band could have handled better.
In your eyes Axl has not done wrong. So why argue with someone who THINKS on that level?

[wight gunner]

Jarmo. I think part of the problem is that you are percieved to have an envied connection with the band, as such people think that you've kisssed major ass to have this.
You have correctly said that this is your site and its up to you inwhich the rules should be adhered to. I for one am glad that at least one site that isn't oficial offers a means for the band to connect with us mortals.

If I was to ask you a question, could you (or even would you) be so good to answer it truthfully, yeah I know people won't believe you however you answer it.

My question is;

Given that the album has been rumoured to be finished and given that the finishing touches were made at the beginning of 2007, have you heard the version, or one like it that Baz was so positive about in March " 2006? where "Sorry" was first mentioned, by him as a track on the album.

It remains to be seen, but for the record I DO think CD will be on general release this year and would like to say thanks for putting a creditable site on-line for us to enjoy.

[jarmo]

Done according to whom?

Several people who should know.

The album has been done a few times over the yrs.

This is once again you assuming.

How can it have been "done a few times over the years" when the recording was finished in 2007?

Will you please explain it.

As I said a while back "nearly done" or "90% done" does not mean recording is finished.

The album has been deemed ready to be mastered and in the lables hands a few times over the yrs.

Assumptions from your part.

You ignore what I said above and then cite old rumors as facts.

We dont know the status of the album...just like we never did the whole time...hence things havnt changed

Well it was only mentioned on gunsnroses.com last year..... For the first time ever!

But ignore it. 

No, you didnt ask me for a list. You asked me if I knew of any reasons.

I dont need to come up with a list.

Aren't you after a debate?

Maybe my memory is wrong but weren't you the one who wanted to debate stuff?

So your idea of a debate is just a bunch of posts with "yes/no" answers?

i would assume that Axl hasnt said anything because he doesnt want to make promises he cant keep. He knows the situation can change on a dime so instead of saying something he just says nothing.

Ok, that sounds like a good theory to me.

Now, try to follow.

#1: I wish there was more updates!
#2: But maybe there's a reason for that....
#3: Like (insert possible reasonable explanation)

What's next? Do you jump back to step #1 and keep repeating it?

You dont ask questions dude. And if you do I answer them. get off your high horse. Is this your new theme now..."think"?

High horse? Did you come up with that one yourself or are you recycling somebody else's material?

It's not a theme at all. I assumed, correct me if I'm wrong, that in a debate you were supposed to think!

It's not a quiz!

There is nothing to think about. The situation is what it is.

In that case, there's nothing to discuss and you can logout!

If I wanted to sugar coat it, I would THINK of every possible excuse/copout/ and technicality and make an argument for the band like you do.

Sugar coat?

Nice, I see you try to resort to the old insults again.

Just because I happen to think that a debate actually requires some thinking, I'm the "bad guy".....


And you're the objective true fan with no agendas...

I already know that there are certain things the band cant do. Or is not their fault. I dont need to announce them or announce that I have thought about them. I also know that there are things imo that the band could have handled better.

You know you can't have something, you know there's probably an explanation for it and you still go on about it? Why?

In your eyes Axl has not done wrong. So why argue with someone who THINKS on that level?

More insults....

I "challenged" you to actually take a break from "point the finger at the band" game and as soon as you realized everything has an explanation you started insulting me.

You want a debate, but not one where you might actually see it form the other point of view.

Jarmo. I think part of the problem is that you are percieved to have an envied connection with the band, as such people think that you've kisssed major ass to have this.

Yeah, and it's all assumptions.


You can say "things have changed in the last year" or whatever. Well, things have changed in the GN'R world too.

Before 2006 I hadn't seen the current band live..... So I should feel the same as I did in 2005? I don't think so.



I don't know where all these bullshit stories that I have the album come from, I can only guess. It doesn't require too much thinking (good thing right Younggunner?).





/jarmo

[The Estranged MrFlashbax]

if having anything to do with older material is supposed to be disrespectful to the new band, then why do they play old songs at the shows? 

[novrain91]

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments?  I mean Jarmo you don't actually believe all the crap you say do you? It's pretty easy to see through the shit and realize that for whatever reason you only want to hear, read, or view blind faith "pro" New GNR materials.  Anybody who has integrity and intelligence realizes that you need to look at things from a logical/rational point of view.  Instead of doing that you just try to spin every single thing (no matter how trivial) to make Axl and Co look like glorious victims in this whole process. I'm a HUGE Guns fan (old and new) but I still try to maintain some integrity! I call bullshit on things that are bullshit, etc.   Wake Up, You're In The Real World, Time To Get Real!

[jarmo]

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments?  I mean Jarmo you don't actually believe all the crap you say do you?

I post what I think instead of posting what I think you want me to think. That's integrity.

As you can see in this thread, I'm not changing my opinion even after I get insulted. Isn't that what integrity is about?



What you think is bullshit often has a reason and explanation.

So because I try to make people think about that, I'm stupid and gullible?

Just because I'm not one of those "you canceled a show, bad bad bad GN'R!" fans, I'm not rational? I go a step beyond that.

"Yeah, they canceled a show, it sucks but it was canceled because......".


Some of you are amazing. You want debates, you want to discuss things, but it seems like you only want people who agree with you in the "discussions". The same thing you accuse me of!

If somebody, like myself in this case, disagrees or asks you to think, I get attacked and insulted. 




/jarmo

[Janabis]

In the past 5 minutes you've deleted two posts that prove my point 100%. You win, it won't be possible to continue this discussion on this "message board."

[jarmo]

In the past 5 minutes you've deleted two posts that prove my point 100%. You win, it won't be possible to continue this discussion on this "message board."

I think it's stupid to post something you know shouldn't be posted only to "prove" your point....

It's also wrong to label people who worked with GN'R years ago as part of the "GN'R camp" to prove your point.

The most amusing thing is fans suddenly clinging onto Merck's letter like it's the honest truth. A few weeks earlier everything he said was basically labeled lies because he was presenting GN'R's side.

There's a pattern there. Whoever says the opposite of what GN'R does is always labeled "interesting" and "the truth". Only stupid gullible fan boys would believe that people in the band and around the band have a better idea of what's going on than outsiders or former associates.




/jarmo

[ppbebe]

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments? 

me i guess. altho I haven't read all the arguments. have you?

I don't get why people are nagging at him when cd is completed. Is jarmo holding it up?

[jarmo]

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments? 

me i guess. altho I haven't read all the arguments. have you?

I don't get why people are nagging at him when cd is completed. Is jarmo holding it up?

Yeah, it's my fault.

All these true fans are right. Bitching about it not being out and not getting updates will get it out faster! It has worked so well so far for them hasn't it?






/jarmo

[Janabis]

In the past 5 minutes you've deleted two posts that prove my point 100%. You win, it won't be possible to continue this discussion on this "message board."

I think it's stupid to post something you know shouldn't be posted only to "prove" your point....

It's also wrong to label people who worked with GN'R years ago as part of the "GN'R camp" to prove your point.

/jarmo

First of all, I never even tried to post it since I knew you'd delete it anyway. I'm sure you're already working overtime to stop all the people who have tried to post it. These insiders (I won't even refer to their names, happy?) wrote about their experiences with GNR and they're perfectly qualified to do so. Just because they were fired or quit (along with dozens of others) doesn't make their point of view any less valid. They're not pretending to know anything about the band in 2008. They spoke specifically about their own first hand experiences working with Axl on Chinese Democracy when they were members of the GNR camp, and if you don't see the value of that information as a GNR fan then I feel sorry for you.

[loretian]

Does anyone actually agree with Jarmo in all of these arguments? 

me i guess.

Yeah, me too.  Gn'R is my favorite band, and it's cool to come to a message board to talk (or read, mostly, in my case) and not have to read the negative crap so many people feel the need to put out day after day after day.  Or at least, if they do, I get the pleasure of reading their smackdown.

[jarmo]

Just because they were fired or quit (along with dozens of others) doesn't make their point of view any less valid.

Would you call that kind of people objective?



For example, if we don't want to promote sensationalism, gossip, hearsay and respect the band, it's our choice.

If I choose not to promote something I feel is ripping off the fellow fans, I don't have to. It's also my choice.

You might feel upset that you didn't see that unofficial DVD mentioned on the site. But that's tough luck....



If you're only here to teach me how to run this site, you might as well start posting in the right section or leave..... It's not gonna change no matter how many days you keep going. Ask Younggunner.

People who only come here to whine about how we run this place isn't exactly the reason why this site exists.




/jarmo

[Janabis]

I'll agree to disagree, and I think I've made my point. You can run the site and censor things as you see fit.

[jarmo]

I'll agree to disagree, and I think I've made my point. You can run the site and censor things as you see fit.

Thanks, and you're free to complain about the setlist of shows you didn't attend, about the lack of a new album, lack of updates, and how much it sucks to be a GN'R fan, all you want on other sites.



The idea of negativity being cool and lack of respect for the band doesn't interest me.




/jarmo