Out of Patience, Give Us Chinese Democracy! Antimusic.com

[cyllan]

For the most part I have left - actually I'm not sure why I'm here now, but since I am I'll say that the moderation of this site is literally more intrusive, and unpleasant than any other site that I've visited. I used to enjoy coming here to discuss GNR-related things(Axl's vocal technique, etc.). I'm not a hater or a naysayer, but I really can't support, or tolerate the Orwellian way that Jarmo runs this site.

In the interests of fair play, balance and what not, I'd just like to say that I find the moderation of this site to be sane and sensible.  Jarmo handles the public insults thrown his way with a good deal more tolerance than I would be able to muster and, in my opinion, keeps this board in better shape than any other GNR board I've visited.  Through his hard work he's made it the (unofficial) place to come for reliable info and I'm very thankful that he continues to battle on even when the apparent lack of appreciation must make him wonder at times just why he bothers.

So, just for the record Jarmo, thank you - don't let the buggers grind you down.   

[jarmo]

These days I rarely bother to visit because it doesn't give an accurate picture of the fanbase's feelings about Axl or GNR. It doesn't matter if your posts are on topic and not flaming anyone, anyone who disagrees with anything Axl has ever done will have their posts deleted.

Yeah, and sites who have a bunch of people making shit up and whining represents the "fanbase"? Right......

These are the kind of  people who sit at home complaining about the shows while you have 15000 people having a great fucking time at a GN'R show on the other side of the globe.

Yet these people give an "accurate picture of the fanbase"? You gotta be fucking kidding.


The same people who say things like "Axl should do this, Axl should do that". When asked why, it's either "because everybody else does" or "it makes sense to me!". Of course it makes sense! You're not in Axl's, or anybody else who's part of the band's, shoes!



Somebody wrote an interesting article on the album and you have to use it to put down the band and whine about the album not being out. Typical.

We fucking get it, you're upset. Now go play somewhere else and come back when you're happier about GN'R.





/jarmo

[Nytunz]

These days I rarely bother to visit because it doesn't give an accurate picture of the fanbase's feelings about Axl or GNR. It doesn't matter if your posts are on topic and not flaming anyone, anyone who disagrees with anything Axl has ever done will have their posts deleted.

Yeah, and sites who have a bunch of people making shit up and whining represents the "fanbase"? Right......

These are the kind of  people who sit at home complaining about the shows while you have 15000 people having a great fucking time at a GN'R show on the other side of the globe.

Yet these people give an "accurate picture of the fanbase"? You gotta be fucking kidding.


The same people who say things like "Axl should do this, Axl should do that". When asked why, it's either "because everybody else does" or "it makes sense to me!". Of course it makes sense! You're not in Axl's, or anybody else who's part of the band's, shoes!



Somebody wrote an interesting article on the album and you have to use it to put down the band and whine about the album not being out. Typical.

We fucking get it, you're upset. Now go play somewhere else and come back when you're happier about GN'R.





/jarmo

Well, this is just the way some human being is. And it will always be like this. I totaly give GNR 100% support. And i have done that for the last 17 years... On the streets, and in any music discussion i have been in. I have also made alot of people get into Old GnR and the New, but in all fairness, i dont think GNR have had the best way to communicate. But i dont actually care. I trust the band, the managment and the people around the band. There may also be things that they stil cant talk about, so if that is the case, i truly forgive them.. But people who come on messageboards just to make up storys, theorys and stuff like that are absolutly not making the situation any better. This is a band, this is music, dont make it a fucking sopeophera!

[jarmo]

i dont think GNR have had the best way to communicate. But i dont actually care. I trust the band, the managment and the people around the band.

They never have!

People claim to be big fans of the band and yet they fail to see that GN'R never was about doing things like everybody else.





/jarmo

[Janabis]

In the interests of fair play, balance and what not, I'd just like to say that I find the moderation of this site to be sane and sensible.  Jarmo handles the public insults thrown his way with a good deal more tolerance than I would be able to muster and, in my opinion, keeps this board in better shape than any other GNR board I've visited.  Through his hard work he's made it the (unofficial) place to come for reliable info and I'm very thankful that he continues to battle on even when the apparent lack of appreciation must make him wonder at times just why he bothers.

This just isn't true. Remember when Merck was fired and he wrote a letter outlining the basis for his firing? This wasn't allowed to be posted here because it offered a point of view that was different from Axl's. Even posts quoting people that still work with Axl, such as Beta, often get deleted here even when they make it into more mainstream news. If Chinese Democracy leaked right now, you can bet the moderators would be working overtime to delete any posts mentioning it, even if it became news all over the internet/music scene. Anyone who thinks this message board accurately portrays news in the GNR world, or Axl's fanbase's feelings as a whole, is having the wool pulled over their eyes.

Yeah, and sites who have a bunch of people making shit up and whining represents the "fanbase"? Right......

These are the kind of  people who sit at home complaining about the shows while you have 15000 people having a great fucking time at a GN'R show on the other side of the globe.

Yet these people give an "accurate picture of the fanbase"? You gotta be fucking kidding.

Only a site that let's people offer their opinions, whether they agree with someone or not (even if that someone happens to be Axl) can consider itself to be accurately representing the fanbase. If a site encouraged negativity and deleted any posts that praised Axl then it would be no more and no less honest than a discussion board that did the exact opposite such as this one. There may be people who sit at home complaining about the shows, but there are also people who have been to LOTS of shows and may not agree with all of Axl's decisions, and this site will wrongly lump all of these people into a single category and pretend they do not exist.

Somebody wrote an interesting article on the album and you have to use it to put down the band and whine about the album not being out. Typical.

Wrong. I agree that the article is interesting and I am not putting down the band.

[Nytunz]

i dont think GNR have had the best way to communicate. But i dont actually care. I trust the band, the managment and the people around the band.

They never have!

People claim to be big fans of the band and yet they fail to see that GN'R never was about doing things like everybody else.





/jarmo

Yeah, and it seems like some people harmonize the "good old days" when talking about the band.
But back in the days there were alot more complicated thing to worry about then today.

GnR has always been about making quality music..

[jarmo]

Only a site that let's people offer their opinions, whether they agree with someone or not (even if that someone happens to be Axl) can consider itself to be accurately representing the fanbase.

No, I think it's like a class room.

The ones who are the loudest get all the attention. So you have five out of 30 in a room who are the loudest and you think they represent everybody.

They don't.

I understand and accept that some fans are unhappy. It's their choice.

However, it doesn't mean I have to let them take over this site.


Another example of how misleading your logic is: In 2007 GN'R played sold out shows outside USA for thousands of fans who were excited to see them. Because a lot of the fan sites' visitors are from the US, that excitement wasn't really present on many sites.

Based on that, maybe you could've said that "nobody cared" about the 2007 world tour. But attendances at the shows prove you wrong.






/jarmo

[cyllan]

If Chinese Democracy leaked right now, you can bet the moderators would be working overtime to delete any posts mentioning it, even if it became news all over the internet/music scene.

Of course, I would expect any site that portrays itself as a fan site to do all it could to stop the theft of that artist's music.

As far as gauging public opinion on the current line-up of GNR, the most reliable method is to get yourself along to a gig and watch the reactions of those around you.  I don't think you can try to assess the mood from a messageboard, given that a vast percentage of readers probably never post.

[Janabis]

Only a site that let's people offer their opinions, whether they agree with someone or not (even if that someone happens to be Axl) can consider itself to be accurately representing the fanbase.

No, I think it's like a class room.

The ones who are the loudest get all the attention. So you have five out of 30 in a room who are the loudest and you think they represent everybody.

They don't.

I understand and accept that some fans are unhappy. It's their choice.

However, it doesn't mean I have to let them take over this site.

If someone is trying to make their opinions louder than everyone else's by flaming, spamming, or threatening people, then you're right to moderate them. That's what moderating is for, and any good forum needs to do this. The problem is when someone is calmly and rationally stating an opinion and they still get moderated because someone else simply disagrees with what they said. I will offer the famous Merck letter as an example of this, where Merck actually had some nice things to say about Axl, and simply offered a different perspective. It's not our place to say who is right or wrong in these matters, and all we can do is give both sides of the story a chance if we want to form an honest outlook.

Another example of how misleading your logic is: In 2007 GN'R played sold out shows outside USA for thousands of fans who were excited to see them. Because a lot of the fan sites' visitors are from the US, that excitement wasn't really present on many sites.

Based on that, maybe you could've said that "nobody cared" about the 2007 world tour. But attendances at the shows prove you wrong.

People in Europe, Australia and Asia are free to visit this site just like anyone else. The internet is all over the world, and these people can share their excitement if they choose to. I was excited about the last tour and I convinced a lot of my friends to go see GNR with me. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Axl says and does though.

[requiem156]

Only a site that let's people offer their opinions, whether they agree with someone or not (even if that someone happens to be Axl) can consider itself to be accurately representing the fanbase.

I understand and accept that some fans are unhappy. It's their choice.

However, it doesn't mean I have to let them take over this site.




/jarmo

If you genuinely think that there's no middle ground between the above statement, and your style of moderation, in which you delete actual facts about the band because they don't conform to the propagandist viewpoint that you're trying to put across, you're either stupid, or deluded.

[ppbebe]

How you know these are actual facts?

People in Europe, Australia and Asia are free to visit this site just like anyone else. The internet is all over the world, and these people can share their excitement if they choose to. I was excited about the last tour and I convinced a lot of my friends to go see GNR with me. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Axl says and does though.

and that doesn't mean you have to find every fault with him.

I'm afraid irresponsible and inconstant remarks on the message boards don't really reflect the whole fan base.
Not everyone posts their opinion on the net. Not every fan  loves vain debates.

It doesn't matter if your posts are on topic and not flaming anyone, anyone who disagrees with anything Axl has ever done will have their posts deleted.

Look, some of my posts also got deleted for unknown reasons I don't really care.
 Does this mean anyone who doesn't disagree with axl will have their post deleted?

[jarmo]

If someone is trying to make their opinions louder than everyone else's by flaming, spamming, or threatening people, then you're right to moderate them. That's what moderating is for, and any good forum needs to do this. The problem is when someone is calmly and rationally stating an opinion and they still get moderated because someone else simply disagrees with what they said. I will offer the famous Merck letter as an example of this, where Merck actually had some nice things to say about Axl, and simply offered a different perspective. It's not our place to say who is right or wrong in these matters, and all we can do is give both sides of the story a chance if we want to form an honest outlook.

There you go again.

Both sides?

You get all the other points of view in the regular media. Isn't that enough?

We're not supposed to be some kind of "objective source of GN'R information". That's the misconception some of you have.

Nobody here will get laughed at because they defend GN'R or actually think that people in the GN'R camp have a better idea fo what's going on than some journalists.

People in Europe, Australia and Asia are free to visit this site just like anyone else. The internet is all over the world, and these people can share their excitement if they choose to. I was excited about the last tour and I convinced a lot of my friends to go see GNR with me.

Of course they are.

But are you arguing that my point is wrong?

That just because a majority of the posters are in the US and they don't care about the 2007 shows, "nobody cares"?

That doesn't mean I have to agree with everything Axl says and does though.

Nobody's forcing you to do anything.

The funny thing is that you probably disagree on something without knowing the reasons behind the decision.

If you genuinely think that there's no middle ground between the above statement, and your style of moderation, in which you delete actual facts about the band because they don't conform to the propagandist viewpoint that you're trying to put across, you're either stupid, or deluded.

Nice, insults.... As usual. 

We delete bullshit.

A lot of things fall under that category.


Your "actual facts" can be facts, but with a negative twist.

Here's an example: Somebody posts "they only sold 5000 tickets!". That might be 100% true, but the capacity for the venue is 5000.

Get my point?

Certain people will do anything to twist things around. You think it's fair and objective.....



It's our decision. You might not agree, but that's your opinion.

You might be happy to read something and then it turns out to be pure bullshit. You get all excited and warm inside.

Then you get disappointed and upset because it was bullshit. A few years later you remember it as "a few years ago I read that....".


We're not interested in that. Contrary to popular belief, we don't delete things that are true. That's stupid.





/jarmo

[Janabis]

If someone is trying to make their opinions louder than everyone else's by flaming, spamming, or threatening people, then you're right to moderate them. That's what moderating is for, and any good forum needs to do this. The problem is when someone is calmly and rationally stating an opinion and they still get moderated because someone else simply disagrees with what they said. I will offer the famous Merck letter as an example of this, where Merck actually had some nice things to say about Axl, and simply offered a different perspective. It's not our place to say who is right or wrong in these matters, and all we can do is give both sides of the story a chance if we want to form an honest outlook.

Both sides?

You get all the other points of view in the regular media. Isn't that enough?

We're not supposed to be some kind of "objective source of GN'R information". That's the misconception some of you have.

Then you're absolutely right and I think it would clarify a lot of things if you put this as a disclaimer on the homepage. I actually did have the misconception that this site was an objective source of information and honest discussion.

We're not interested in that. Contrary to popular belief, we don't delete things that are true. That's stupid.

You deleted all references to Merck's letter because you decided it wasn't true. That was stupid.

[jarmo]

You deleted all references to Merck's letter because you decided it wasn't true. That was stupid.

Where did I say that?


Do you know how most publications work? Somebody decides what they should publish.

Same goes here.



/jarmo

[Janabis]

You deleted all references to Merck's letter because you decided it wasn't true. That was stupid.

Where did I say that?

/jarmo

When it made news I had to go to other GNR forums to read about it because it was instantly deleted whenever someone posted it here. If you recanted and decided to post it sometime afterwards, then good for you. It was interesting to get an insider's perspective on the band and the difficulties with working with Axl, and it's not for either of us to say whether it was all "true" or not.

[John J. Rambo]

By the way, who actually CONFIRMED that the record was turned in? as in DONE? Mastered and everything?

[bodine]

By the way, who actually CONFIRMED that the record was turned in? as in DONE? Mastered and everything?

lol  . . .  we can't say.   

[lakersaregreat]

You deleted all references to Merck's letter because you decided it wasn't true. That was stupid.

Where did I say that?


Do you know how most publications work? Somebody decides what they should publish.

Same goes here.



/jarmo

I thought this was an open message board, not a newspaper. I guess I was wrong.

[John J. Rambo]

By the way, who actually CONFIRMED that the record was turned in? as in DONE? Mastered and everything?

lol  . . .  we can't say.   

Well whoever it is, is a liar. The record has NOT been turned in. This is 100% confirmed with Interscope. Its been played more than once and loved, but not turned in.

[requiem156]

If you genuinely think that there's no middle ground between the above statement, and your style of moderation, in which you delete actual facts about the band because they don't conform to the propagandist viewpoint that you're trying to put across, you're either stupid, or deluded.

. Contrary to popular belief, we don't delete things that are true. That's stupid.





/jarmo

Ok, that's a lie, but whatever. As everyone says, it is your site - run it the way you want. I won't be here to complain, which will undoubtedly make us both happier.