Out of Patience, Give Us Chinese Democracy! Antimusic.com

[Smoking Guns]

Hello GNR Fanatics and Fellow Fans...

I wrote the article and appreciate any and all feedback.

In regards to the mention of putting a vintage concert in an elaborate box, it was merely mentioned as a way to entice the people at Universal. I didn't state it as a definitive because I knew it was highly unlikely. Also, while I am all for having items that showcase only the new GNR, if it were to be added, it would be done to get people who wouldn't otherwise buy this album, possibly buy it.

I wasn't a fan of the new GNR, didn't care as to whether it was a success or not, but then I saw them live;

http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/2008/01/guns-n-roses-appetite-of-determination.html

...and I was transformed. There are numerous people who haven't paid attention to the group without it's original members and I was merely thinking out of the box to find a resolution to ensure that the widest margin of people would be exposed to the album...that's all.

xT
http://the-screen-door.blogspot.com/
tonykblog.com

Welcome to the greatest and most dysfunctional forum on the planet!  Great article and look forward to discussing GNR with you in the future.   

[Axl4Prez2004]

It's not as if GNR wasn't ready yet.
I'm still not 'waiting' tho.

but you don't want that out at the same time as Chinese Democracy.

def not.

see the 10th~12th post before yours.  he's a board member now.
modeled on radiohead, the no release until two million downloads secured approach is quite novel. 

I'd like to take some credit for the "ransom" release idea.  I'm gonna bet this kind of idea was dismissed immediately unfortunately.  A lot of folks on the fence, even die-hard fans, might perceive an action like that as a slap in the face.  I think a lot of folks already feel like Axl's been willfully holding the album back.  I don't agree with that opinion, but I think it's what the majority out there think. 

[grog mug]

Glad the guy transformed into a GN'R fan....antimusic finally feels our pain of the last decade!!

[thescreendoor]

It's not as if GNR wasn't ready yet.
I'm still not 'waiting' tho.

but you don't want that out at the same time as Chinese Democracy.

def not.

see the 10th~12th post before yours.  he's a board member now.
modeled on radiohead, the no release until two million downloads secured approach is quite novel. 

I'd like to take some credit for the "ransom" release idea.  I'm gonna bet this kind of idea was dismissed immediately unfortunately.  A lot of folks on the fence, even die-hard fans, might perceive an action like that as a slap in the face.  I think a lot of folks already feel like Axl's been willfully holding the album back.  I don't agree with that opinion, but I think it's what the majority out there think. 

In regards to the ransom idea...it could work a few ideas.

Have a webpage that tracks the # of downloads...but that will NEVER happen on Universal's watch because if the download idea takes off they'll want to maximize it before unleashing the album.

On the other hand, if they keep the "magic number" internal and don't make a press release, it would allow them to make their $$$ back and hopefully get us this album sooner than later.

xT

[Axl4Prez2004]

It's not as if GNR wasn't ready yet.
I'm still not 'waiting' tho.

but you don't want that out at the same time as Chinese Democracy.

def not.

see the 10th~12th post before yours.  he's a board member now.
modeled on radiohead, the no release until two million downloads secured approach is quite novel. 

I'd like to take some credit for the "ransom" release idea.  I'm gonna bet this kind of idea was dismissed immediately unfortunately.  A lot of folks on the fence, even die-hard fans, might perceive an action like that as a slap in the face.  I think a lot of folks already feel like Axl's been willfully holding the album back.  I don't agree with that opinion, but I think it's what the majority out there think. 

In regards to the ransom idea...it could work a few ideas.

Have a webpage that tracks the # of downloads...but that will NEVER happen on Universal's watch because if the download idea takes off they'll want to maximize it before unleashing the album.

On the other hand, if they keep the "magic number" internal and don't make a press release, it would allow them to make their $$$ back and hopefully get us this album sooner than later.

xT

Seriously, how easy is that?  All these years the damn record companies could have had kiosks set up in every mall, record store, food court, GNR concert!, anywhere and everywhere.  All it would have to say is:  Save Chinese Democracy.  All folks would have to do is slide their credit card through, give 10 bucks to the cause...and with money rolling in while the band was perfecting the music, the record company would have had at least some money coming in and the ability to earn more off the interest in the meantime. 

Yes, I know a lot of folks have stopped waiting, and the record company feels people will be drawn back in with minimal marketing, but I don't think that's true.  Not with the complicated history of GNR.  Over the past decade there have been many folks following the band but unfortunately many just quit waiting and lose interest.  If they had the opportunity to throw in cash to lure the album out (let's face it, usually money talks) perhaps we'd have the album out by now...or perhaps not.  Personally, I think Axl will only release this thing when it's ready and no sooner.  True artists don't live by "company schedule."  Now, though, if the album truly is in the hands of the record company, money will talk!

Look at it this way.  GNR has performed in front of over a million fans in the past 7 years.  You're gonna tell me if the ability to pre-order a copy of the most long-awaited hard rock album of all-time was an option, people wouldn't have taken it?  Hell no!  I'd have ordered it going into the concert, and twice on the way out!  Now, in true short-sighted business fashion, the company probably wants to promote the album on the cheap.  F'ing idiots.

btw, great articles at antimusic.com.   

[jarmo]

In regards to the mention of putting a vintage concert in an elaborate box, it was merely mentioned as a way to entice the people at Universal. I didn't state it as a definitive because I knew it was highly unlikely. Also, while I am all for having items that showcase only the new GNR, if it were to be added, it would be done to get people who wouldn't otherwise buy this album, possibly buy it.

I think that's the idea behind most of the bonus stuff they package with albums these days.

On a more serious note, it all depends who you are trying to get to buy the album.



We know most hardcore fans will buy it just because it's the new GN'R album. They'll probably buy the best version available regardless of what's in it.

But how do you get the casual fans to buy it? I'm not sure they'd be ready to spend more than the price of a regular cd.

How do you get them to buy the regular CD for $10?

As you mentioned, you give the buyers something extra. Like a bonus DVD or something.

But you still have people thinking "I don't need a bonus DVD, I just want the music and I can get it for free".....






/jarmo

[D]

I think a lot of times we live in a parallell GNR universe and we just automatically assume that the entire world knows what we know about GNR


I would talk about GNR endlessly at work for instance and was absolutely shocked how many people had no clue that Guns N Roses were still a band and that Axl had new musicians in the band.



Thats kind of my point with the boxset.

U include a Vintage DVD of the old band for those who have yet to truly understand that there is a new band. U have an exclusive DVD with Axl being interviewed giving his side of the breakup, the recording process, a little info on how these songs came together etc. and it gives people a better understanding and makes them accept a new band more with Axl's side of the story and why he continued on with the name etc.

[Axl4Prez2004]

D, you make some great points.  At work a couple years back, I was talkin' GNR with this smokin' hot 20 year old...she seriously thought Axl Rose was dead. 

To Jarmo's point.  How do you get people to pay $10 for something they'll eventually get for free?  Timing!!!!  It's all about timing.  Sell the product when folks are in a party atmosphere like a concert...or when they are into a decade-long wait for an album!  Make it available in conjunction with some sort of tv program or show.  Empower the consumer.  With a ransom release.  You heard it right here first, I'm coining the phrase "Ransom Release."  The music fan now has the power to pry the music free.  Once x amount of dollars go to the record company, the music is released.  That, along with a real crackdown on music theft on-line, along with fake/altered copies on file-sharing networks, yeah, that would be a start.   

[Janabis]

The ransom idea has actually worked pretty well in the past for bootleggers who wanted, say, $1000 to release a particularly sought after recording. Fans who are willing to spend hundreds of dollars on bootlegs would definitely be willing to spend hundreds of dollars to release Chinese Democracy. I think this would generate a lot of resentment towards the label and Axl though, especially after the fans have already been fucked over so badly for the past 10 years or so.

[jarmo]

U include a Vintage DVD of the old band for those who have yet to truly understand that there is a new band. U have an exclusive DVD with Axl being interviewed giving his side of the breakup, the recording process, a little info on how these songs came together etc. and it gives people a better understanding and makes them accept a new band more with Axl's side of the story and why he continued on with the name etc.

But it's a new album, not looking back to something that was.

If they included a live DVD with Chinese Democracy, it should be the band that's gonna play the songs live. Not something that was 20 years ago!

If they want to go through the band's history, it can be done without including a live DVD of the old band.





/jarmo

[ppbebe]

Yep.
 If a general music fan decides to buy a physical cd after hearing the dl version of cd, they don't expect to see the old band stuff with it. someone new to GNR would rather start from afd than rare vintage clips to learn about the band's past.

modeled on radiohead, the no release until two million downloads secured approach is quite novel. 

I'd like to take some credit for the "ransom" release idea.  I'm gonna bet this kind of idea was dismissed immediately unfortunately.  A lot of folks on the fence, even die-hard fans, might perceive an action like that as a slap in the face.  I think a lot of folks already feel like Axl's been willfully holding the album back.  I don't agree with that opinion, but I think it's what the majority out there think. 

GH was a slap in the face for both the fans and the artists but it has sold like 7/8 million?
More than that  I'm impressed with the stunning effect of the red glow with a Blue smiley. WoW

[freedom78]

I think a lot of times we live in a parallell GNR universe and we just automatically assume that the entire world knows what we know about GNR


I would talk about GNR endlessly at work for instance and was absolutely shocked how many people had no clue that Guns N Roses were still a band and that Axl had new musicians in the band.

I agree.  Hardcore fans know and will buy, so the marketing matters little.  Casual fans probably have some knowledge that there are new band members who weren't around in the Appetite/UYI days and, in a lot of cases, they have some disapproval.  Then there is the great mass of music idiocy, who only know Paradise City and SCOM, who only know Slash as a guy in VR, and who will be won over more by marketing and videos than by anything else. 

The casual fans can be won over by the quality of the music, hearing it get good play on both classic rock and modern rock stations, etc.  Some portion of them will come around, just like all of us did.

The mass of idiots will be won over by some jackoff on MTV telling them to like it. 

But neither the casual fans nor the mass of idiots will be won over by an $80 box set.  Hardcore fans might buy it, but it still will not add up to "success."  But I think we're making too much of recouping the supposed $14 million.  If the album did well in the US (say 3 million copies), it would sell at least that many again worldwide.  We think too much in terms of US sales, when as much or more can be sold outside the US.  I'd bet anything that the debate within the company is the following: do we market like crazy, and raise our costs, or do we do little marketing, and risk losses?   

What I'd like to see is fairly simple.  As for marketing, get a single and video out, into rotation on classic and modern rock radio and on vid channels.  Do appearances on MTV to let the kiddies know it's time to throw away their black hair dye and have fun again.  If they want to release it early as a download, that's fine.  Follow this up with an album release and perhaps a limited edition with any of the following: bonus tracks (how about "Oh My God," for those of us who don't want the rest of the crappy End of Days soundtrack?), their first video, some concert footage from the Chinese Democracy World Tour(s).  Charge $10 for the regular, $15 or so for the limited/special edition. 

Or how about this: if people are willing to pay $10 for an album, a lot of that goes to the middle man (your Best Buys and Walmarts).  Why not do an early release that can only be purchased through Universal or GNR's website, say a month before an in-store release.  Cut out the middle-man and collect all the profit.  Or, perhaps better, do an early download (again, a month or two ahead of a hard copy release) with two options:  A cheaper download only option and a full price download with the promise of a hard copy being sent as soon as they're available.

I dunno...I'm no expert and there are a lot of possibilities, but it strikes me that a combination of pretty standard marketing and perhaps an innovative internet release would do just fine. 

[D]

The Ransom release strategy is HOW U STOP LEAKS


How come Record labels can't figure this out?


2 million may be a little excessive but make it 1 million.


1 million downloads for 3 dollars and the digital download gets released.

A week after the album hits the 1 million download it is released on CD.

for 3 dollars, to make sure CD hit the 1 million mark, Hell, Id buy 10 copies.

[Axl4Prez2004]

D, great post.  I also like Freedom's idea on cutting out the middleman once the cd is physically available.

About the ransom release strategy, D gets it.  That's how you stop leaks and make sure the money goes to the record company.  No matter what strategy is used apart from a ransom release, the second the album is released it will be reproduced ad infinitum and had for free by people who don't think they have to pay for music.  Why wouldn't the record companies want to guarantee their investment is returned before that crap even starts? 

Also, what better way to generate a buzz.  If people want to be negative, so what?  If people aren't interested, so be it...but I think they will be.  The new music in demo form makes other finished music by other bands sound like shit.  Imagine how incredible the final versions will be...it's just insane!   

[Smoking Guns]

I feel like the board is working together for a great push.  All we need is someone to be sold on the "ransom" and we may have it soon.  What if a record company takes advice from a forum and it proves successful.  Wow.

[mrbucketfoot]

Your know SG good idea can come from anywhere. Let's just hope that people look past their pride and squabbles and take a good look at things.

Anyway, getting people to know about GNR or learn how awesome the new lineup is isn't going to happen overnight. While I think there are a lot of good ideas floating about, I think it all comes down to getting the record out, getting out on tour, and getting some good reviews. It takes time to build a client list or portfolio and building respect for a band is really no different, imo.

I like the feel of things. It seems like as a board we're finally looking ahead instead of being caught up in the past. Here's hoping for whats next. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

I feel like the board is working together for a great push.  All we need is someone to be sold on the "ransom" and we may have it soon.  What if a record company takes advice from a forum and it proves successful.  Wow.

I mentioned a ransom release years ago and got no response...it is a crazy idea, but it's so crazy, it just might work.

Personally, I don't care how they release the music, I am a hardcore fan who will have his wife video-tape my purchase of the album!  Yes, it will be that joyous an event.  It will remind me of the time I woke my wife who was 7 months pregnant at the time, to come downstairs and take a picture of me in front of the tv when Syracuse won the 2003 NCAA basketball championship!  We still have a good laugh about that.   

[Howard2k]

What about a dual layer disc?  DVD on one side, CD on the other side.

The DVD side could have some live footage from some of the previous shows.  With all the dates that they've played so far I'm sure it would be trivial to put together 3-4 songs onto the DVD side, and then use THOSE as a teaser for a potential live DVD.

The live tracks are an enticement to have people purchase Chi Dem on CD.  The DVD side will then potentially spur demand for a live DVD.  win/win.

[gunns1]

What about a dual layer disc?  DVD on one side, CD on the other side.

The DVD side could have some live footage from some of the previous shows.  With all the dates that they've played so far I'm sure it would be trivial to put together 3-4 songs onto the DVD side, and then use THOSE as a teaser for a potential live DVD.

The live tracks are an enticement to have people purchase Chi Dem on CD.  The DVD side will then potentially spur demand for a live DVD.  win/win.

thats not a bad idea, hopefully people would buy the dvd/cd then caus it has some good footage on it

bu then how would you package it,
alot of people are wanting like proper cd covers etc, would it be packaged in a dvd cover case?
no point having 2 cases if its just the one disc,

fuck all this is too hard, just release the fucker on cd and promote the hell out of it until everyone is sick of the cd

[Howard2k]

What about a dual layer disc?  DVD on one side, CD on the other side.

The DVD side could have some live footage from some of the previous shows.  With all the dates that they've played so far I'm sure it would be trivial to put together 3-4 songs onto the DVD side, and then use THOSE as a teaser for a potential live DVD.

The live tracks are an enticement to have people purchase Chi Dem on CD.  The DVD side will then potentially spur demand for a live DVD.  win/win.

thats not a bad idea, hopefully people would buy the dvd/cd then caus it has some good footage on it

bu then how would you package it,
alot of people are wanting like proper cd covers etc, would it be packaged in a dvd cover case?
no point having 2 cases if its just the one disc,

fuck all this is too hard, just release the fucker on cd and promote the hell out of it until everyone is sick of the cd

Just one disc, but with a little sticker on the case indicating the bonus content...   Franz Ferdinand did something somewhat similar.