Study: False statements preceded war

[Perfect Criminal]

I read the article, and none of the replies...so sorry if this was covered.

Very simply...there are two false statements said repeatedly.  One statement, about WMDs, was a statement that many intelligence agencies around the world agreed with them on.  Hardly a reason for outrage.  The other statement is the troubling one.  If they believed this information based on intelligence agreed upon by many to be true, I'd let it slide.  However, I don't recall hearing that this statement was believed by the rest of the world.  That's the crime here. 

I was one that agreed that going to war with Iraq was the right thing to do.  Would I have thought that way if I thought there was NO connection between Al Quada and Iraq?  Yes.  Because, to me, going to war was more about the message that was sent by it, and not the reasons behind it.  We are, at our cores, primal beings, period.  That instinct is there in every one of us.  In me, it manifested itself after 9/11.  I just liked the idea, at a primal place inside me, of sending the following message:  fuck with us on our soil and we'll mess you up!  The message that the rest of the world got from our invasion of Iraq was that:

"You better not mess with us or we'll make you pay.  As a metter of fact, you better not even let us THINK you MIGHT be messing with us or we'll make YOU pay."

On some level, that's an important message IMO.

[Perfect Criminal]

Just read the thread.  Utah, I root for the Patriots (sad day today for me btw).  Should I not support them because I don't play for them?  Same thing here.  You need to not get personal over this shit.  There are always more than one way to look at everyting.  When people disagree with your point of view, its just that...a disagreement.  It's not a personal attack against your beliefs man.

[SLCPUNK]

Just read the thread.  Utah, I root for the Patriots (sad day today for me btw).  Should I not support them because I don't play for them?  Same thing here.  You need to not get personal over this shit.  There are always more than one way to look at everyting.  When people disagree with your point of view, its just that...a disagreement.  It's not a personal attack against your beliefs man.

You're rooting for a game where men throw a ball to one another.

The other is rooting for violence, and death on a massive scale, just for starters.

Quite a bit of difference.

Nobody is "taking it personal" here.

[TAP]

At least we're getting closer to the truth now. Here's why people like and still support the Iraq war.

After 9/11 people wanted to see a gold ole American asswhooping. Afghanistan didn't really do it, chasing shadows round mountains and all that - Iraq had a classic villain to hate, and real death and destruction live on TV!! It was like the superbowl and wrestlemania all in one, with the added bonus of knowing that your side will win, and even the casualties on your side weren't that important, not having well paid jobs or anything like that.

[fuckin crazy]

  Would I have thought that way if I thought there was NO connection between Al Quada and Iraq?  Yes.  Because, to me, going to war was more about the message that was sent by it, and not the reasons behind it.

That sounds like a perversion of "the ends justify the means".

 We are, at our cores, primal beings, period.  That instinct is there in every one of us.  In me, it manifested itself after 9/11.  I just liked the idea, at a primal place inside me, of sending the following message:  fuck with us on our soil and we'll mess you up!  The message that the rest of the world got from our invasion of Iraq was that:

"You better not mess with us or we'll make you pay.  As a metter of fact, you better not even let us THINK you MIGHT be messing with us or we'll make YOU pay."

On some level, that's an important message IMO.

The problem with that argument is that Iraq never "fucked" with us.

If you are going to reference the previous war as some kind of justification. The First Gulf War could have been prevented if Papa Bush had of sent the proper signals through his ambassador.

While that is no reason for an Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, at least part of the blame for the original conflict falls squarely on shoulders of the first Bush administration.

[norway]

and so let me get this straight....anyone who didn't go to Iraq has no right to think the war was a good idea??

You can always say being against the war is supporting S.Hussein and his folkmurder using that logic

It isn't the first time a country has been invaded and a dictator removed, Russia did that in 1945. Now it's been done again.
But war is always a defeat and it's uncertain if all means of diplomacy was tried.

[polluxlm]

I read the article, and none of the replies...so sorry if this was covered.

Very simply...there are two false statements said repeatedly.  One statement, about WMDs, was a statement that many intelligence agencies around the world agreed with them on.  Hardly a reason for outrage.  The other statement is the troubling one.  If they believed this information based on intelligence agreed upon by many to be true, I'd let it slide.  However, I don't recall hearing that this statement was believed by the rest of the world.  That's the crime here.

Yeah, all our 'intelligence' agencies believing something that simply wasn't true isn't a reason for outrage at all. Must be a line at the coffee machine over at Langley. But what the hell, let's promote these idiots, give them more money!

Stupidity in government, that should be a crime.

I was one that agreed that going to war with Iraq was the right thing to do.  Would I have thought that way if I thought there was NO connection between Al Quada and Iraq?  Yes.  Because, to me, going to war was more about the message that was sent by it, and not the reasons behind it.  We are, at our cores, primal beings, period.  That instinct is there in every one of us.  In me, it manifested itself after 9/11.  I just liked the idea, at a primal place inside me, of sending the following message:  fuck with us on our soil and we'll mess you up!  The message that the rest of the world got from our invasion of Iraq was that:

"You better not mess with us or we'll make you pay.  As a metter of fact, you better not even let us THINK you MIGHT be messing with us or we'll make YOU pay."

On some level, that's an important message IMO.

What level is that? We go over and fuck you, and if you got a problem we'll fuck you some more? The administration gives the impression of a spoiled, stupid kid that beats you up because you got a problem with him beating you up.

It's not a Chuck Norris movie.

[Bodhi]

Great point. I had a conversation with an administrator at the VA, and she thinks that the returning vets from the war will face some  of the same problems the vets from Vietnam faced. i.e. homelessness, psychological problems.

Wonder if the guys like Shadow7X, will help these guys out in their time of need?

He is making some great money, right? Maybe he could lend some assistance to the guys who actually had the balls to go fight?

Maybe he could donate some of his time to these soldiers?

How about any of you Neo Con chest thumpers? Are you willing to donate any time or money to these soldiers returning home?

Can you give them that much at least?

I am all for helping the troops from this war and all veterans from past wars...Dems love to raise my taxes to pay for crack whore moms and their 6 kids and other useless social programs, how about developing some more programs that make sure these Veterans are taken care of the rest of their lives?? imi all for it..

Utah...you are usually at the very least SEMI-rational in most of your posts, but you are ridiculous in this thread...It is the most bullshit argument in the world that anyone who didn't go serve in Iraq is "chicken shit"...you are saying that anyone who didnt go fight and is for the war is a "neo con chest thumper"...thats fucking bullshit and you know it..you are saying  (even though you wont come right out and admit) that if you didnt go to war you have no right to think that it was a good cause....this is insane

[Bodhi]

that is the biggest/cheapest cop out EVER..so because someone didnt go to Iraq that means that they have no business being FOR the war??? really?? is that what you are going with? thats the best you got??

oh by the way its a VOLUNTEER service.....

Guess you were too chicken shit to go also huh?

My point is it's a lot easier to support chaos and destruction, when you get to keep your hands clean at home, and send other kids off to do your dirty work.

if by "too chicken shit to go" you mean I have a really good job, money and really no reason to go to war then yes i was "too chicken shit to go".....

so people with crappy jobs, not a lot of money and really no reason to go to war (does anybody have a good reason to go to war?) are the ones who should be fighting (dying, getting limbs blown off)?

well?

I am just saying the way it is.  Alot of people join the service for money (for college) and for an education....Now I know you libs love to say how wars kill the poor...and you know what you are right....That is the way it is, because MOST people(with the exception of guys like Pat Tillman)  do not leave a comfortable life here in the states to go fight a war....do you want me to lie to you? if anything on this board I am the most outspoken and honest, so I stand by my previous statement of really having no reason to go to war.....if you guys want to get on my case for "cheering on the sidelines" be my guest, its way better than most of you who just waliked out on your team when they were down.....You guys are right, continously tearing down our leader and the reason the troops are fighting in Iraq is really boosting morale for the country....keep it up..

[SLCPUNK]

Great point. I had a conversation with an administrator at the VA, and she thinks that the returning vets from the war will face some  of the same problems the vets from Vietnam faced. i.e. homelessness, psychological problems.

Wonder if the guys like Shadow7X, will help these guys out in their time of need?

He is making some great money, right? Maybe he could lend some assistance to the guys who actually had the balls to go fight?

Maybe he could donate some of his time to these soldiers?

How about any of you Neo Con chest thumpers? Are you willing to donate any time or money to these soldiers returning home?

Can you give them that much at least?

I am all for helping the troops from this war and all veterans from past wars...Dems love to raise my taxes to pay for crack whore moms and their 6 kids and other useless social programs, how about developing some more programs that make sure these Veterans are taken care of the rest of their lives?? imi all for it..

Utah...you are usually at the very least SEMI-rational in most of your posts, but you are ridiculous in this thread...It is the most bullshit argument in the world that anyone who didn't go serve in Iraq is "chicken shit"...you are saying that anyone who didnt go fight and is for the war is a "neo con chest thumper"...thats fucking bullshit and you know it..you are saying  (even though you wont come right out and admit) that if you didnt go to war you have no right to think that it was a good cause....this is insane

So what time or money have you donated to our troops coming home?

What sacrifices have you made for this war?

Anything?

[Bodhi]

Great point. I had a conversation with an administrator at the VA, and she thinks that the returning vets from the war will face some  of the same problems the vets from Vietnam faced. i.e. homelessness, psychological problems.

Wonder if the guys like Shadow7X, will help these guys out in their time of need?

He is making some great money, right? Maybe he could lend some assistance to the guys who actually had the balls to go fight?

Maybe he could donate some of his time to these soldiers?

How about any of you Neo Con chest thumpers? Are you willing to donate any time or money to these soldiers returning home?

Can you give them that much at least?

I am all for helping the troops from this war and all veterans from past wars...Dems love to raise my taxes to pay for crack whore moms and their 6 kids and other useless social programs, how about developing some more programs that make sure these Veterans are taken care of the rest of their lives?? imi all for it..

Utah...you are usually at the very least SEMI-rational in most of your posts, but you are ridiculous in this thread...It is the most bullshit argument in the world that anyone who didn't go serve in Iraq is "chicken shit"...you are saying that anyone who didnt go fight and is for the war is a "neo con chest thumper"...thats fucking bullshit and you know it..you are saying  (even though you wont come right out and admit) that if you didnt go to war you have no right to think that it was a good cause....this is insane

So what time or money have you donated to our troops coming home?

What sacrifices have you made for this war?

Anything?

I have repeatedly donated money to Sean Hannity's Freedom Concert the past few years.  It provides money for scholarships for kids of soldiers who die in Iraq. 

[The Dog]

that is the biggest/cheapest cop out EVER..so because someone didnt go to Iraq that means that they have no business being FOR the war??? really?? is that what you are going with? thats the best you got??

oh by the way its a VOLUNTEER service.....

Guess you were too chicken shit to go also huh?

My point is it's a lot easier to support chaos and destruction, when you get to keep your hands clean at home, and send other kids off to do your dirty work.

if by "too chicken shit to go" you mean I have a really good job, money and really no reason to go to war then yes i was "too chicken shit to go".....

so people with crappy jobs, not a lot of money and really no reason to go to war (does anybody have a good reason to go to war?) are the ones who should be fighting (dying, getting limbs blown off)?

well?

I am just saying the way it is.  Alot of people join the service for money (for college) and for an education....Now I know you libs love to say how wars kill the poor...and you know what you are right....That is the way it is, because MOST people(with the exception of guys like Pat Tillman)  do not leave a comfortable life here in the states to go fight a war....do you want me to lie to you? if anything on this board I am the most outspoken and honest, so I stand by my previous statement of really having no reason to go to war.....

so if there was a draft, or mandatory military service, how gung ho would you be for a war in iraq?  Would you think your son/daughter would be risking their life for a good cause?  lets see how honest you are with this question...

[Bodhi]

that is the biggest/cheapest cop out EVER..so because someone didnt go to Iraq that means that they have no business being FOR the war??? really?? is that what you are going with? thats the best you got??

oh by the way its a VOLUNTEER service.....

Guess you were too chicken shit to go also huh?

My point is it's a lot easier to support chaos and destruction, when you get to keep your hands clean at home, and send other kids off to do your dirty work.

if by "too chicken shit to go" you mean I have a really good job, money and really no reason to go to war then yes i was "too chicken shit to go".....

so people with crappy jobs, not a lot of money and really no reason to go to war (does anybody have a good reason to go to war?) are the ones who should be fighting (dying, getting limbs blown off)?

well?

I am just saying the way it is.  Alot of people join the service for money (for college) and for an education....Now I know you libs love to say how wars kill the poor...and you know what you are right....That is the way it is, because MOST people(with the exception of guys like Pat Tillman)  do not leave a comfortable life here in the states to go fight a war....do you want me to lie to you? if anything on this board I am the most outspoken and honest, so I stand by my previous statement of really having no reason to go to war.....

so if there was a draft, or mandatory military service, how gung ho would you be for a war in iraq?  Would you think your son/daughter would be risking their life for a good cause?  lets see how honest you are with this question...

The fact that I think Iraq was a worthwhile cause has nothing to do with it being a draft vs. a volunteer service...of course I would go to war if I were drafted, and no son or daughter of mine would be a draft dodger..I would disown them...what am I going to do, hide in Canada?  My last name isn't Clinton....

and for the record...just because I thought Iraq was good idea does not mean that I think it has been handled well at all...

[The Dog]

I'm not asking if you would go or not - I'm asking if you'd still be for it as much as you seem to be now - knowing that YOU, with your high paying job and great life, might have to go die with those "poor people" who are the ones who should be fighting (not you of course).

If your life is so awesome, I don't think you'd want to risk it by dying in some shitty desert or having your legs blown off.  Its easy to be for something that you know you'll never have to be a part of or risk anything of substance over.

In other words, how "worthwhile" is the war to you?  And if its not worth you or your kids dying over, why should other Americans be dying for it?  What makes you any different?

[Bodhi]

I'm not asking if you would go or not - I'm asking if you'd still be for it as much as you seem to be now - knowing that YOU, with your high paying job and great life, might have to go die with those "poor people" who are the ones who should be fighting (not you of course).

If your life is so awesome, I don't think you'd want to risk it by dying in some shitty desert or having your legs blown off.  Its easy to be for something that you know you'll never have to be a part of or risk anything of substance over.

In other words, how "worthwhile" is the war to you?  And if its not worth you or your kids dying over, why should other Americans be dying for it?  What makes you any different?

first off...i never said I have some super awesome great life, I make a decent buck and am satisfied with where I am at right now, I never said I was some millionaire....

and the fact that I told you I would go and would send my kids in a heartbeat should answer your question about how gung ho I would be for the war...I also dont' appreciate you mixing my words, I never said that "poor people are the ones who should be dying" thats horseshit and you know it.I have 4 family members over there right now(who are not poor) who decided to make a career out of the military about 15 years ago.They could have left the military a few years ago but didn't they enjoy it....so its not like I dont have anyone I care about over there..I agreed with you saying that alot of people dying over there are poor....I never said they deserve it....I said that going to war was an option for alot of them to pay for school...etc....the fact that they are dying is unfortunate.....

I'll break it down for you in simpler terms...I am a fourth generation American....the following is what I believe...America is always right...period.  Even when we are wrong...we are right. I am an arrogant American who will always side with our country because it provides us with the best life in this world....I don't care if we torture terrorist suspects, in fact we should kill them when we are done with them, and that goes for any other enemy we might have....Now is this a very rational view to have? of course not...but who gives a shit...if its us vs. them it should NEVER be us.......so if you would liike to continue to try and "get through" to me.....good luck....

[polluxlm]

I'll break it down for you in simpler terms...I am a fourth generation American....the following is what I believe...America is always right...period.  Even when we are wrong...we are right. I am an arrogant American who will always side with our country because it provides us with the best life in this world....I don't care if we torture terrorist suspects, in fact we should kill them when we are done with them, and that goes for any other enemy we might have....Now is this a very rational view to have? of course not...but who gives a shit...if its us vs. them it should NEVER be us.......so if you would liike to continue to try and "get through" to me.....good luck....

Do you read books?

[Bodhi]

I'll break it down for you in simpler terms...I am a fourth generation American....the following is what I believe...America is always right...period.  Even when we are wrong...we are right. I am an arrogant American who will always side with our country because it provides us with the best life in this world....I don't care if we torture terrorist suspects, in fact we should kill them when we are done with them, and that goes for any other enemy we might have....Now is this a very rational view to have? of course not...but who gives a shit...if its us vs. them it should NEVER be us.......so if you would liike to continue to try and "get through" to me.....good luck....

Do you read books?

yes of course...I read a lot of books...intelligence and arrogance are two different things....im intelligent enough to know that my view is very irrational and arrogant enough not to care...

[polluxlm]

Indeed

[Perfect Criminal]

  Would I have thought that way if I thought there was NO connection between Al Quada and Iraq?  Yes.  Because, to me, going to war was more about the message that was sent by it, and not the reasons behind it.

That sounds like a perversion of "the ends justify the means".

 We are, at our cores, primal beings, period.  That instinct is there in every one of us.  In me, it manifested itself after 9/11.  I just liked the idea, at a primal place inside me, of sending the following message:  fuck with us on our soil and we'll mess you up!  The message that the rest of the world got from our invasion of Iraq was that:

"You better not mess with us or we'll make you pay.  As a metter of fact, you better not even let us THINK you MIGHT be messing with us or we'll make YOU pay."

On some level, that's an important message IMO.

The problem with that argument is that Iraq never "fucked" with us.

That's the point I was making in the bolded text above.  The message was "we don't even need proof, we just need to think you might be involved".  Anyways, I think differently about it now.  At the time, that's a thought I had a time or two.  And while I am not happy about the circumstances involved with why we went, I fully support staying until the job is done.  I think pulling out now would be as cruel to Iraq as going into it in the first place.

[SLCPUNK]

I'll break it down for you in simpler terms...I am a fourth generation American....the following is what I believe...America is always right...period.  Even when we are wrong...we are right. I am an arrogant American who will always side with our country because it provides us with the best life in this world....I don't care if we torture terrorist suspects, in fact we should kill them when we are done with them, and that goes for any other enemy we might have....Now is this a very rational view to have? of course not...but who gives a shit...if its us vs. them it should NEVER be us.......so if you would liike to continue to try and "get through" to me.....good luck....

Wow, just wow.