Catcher in the Rye - Song and Lyrics

[OreGunsNRoses]

This song sounds so awesome in the beginning, but I feel it builds and builds and then never really gets to where I was hoping, if that makes sense.

[littleredcorvette]

How is it that you don?t hear/understand the words/lyrics that are in your own language?

Hearing them is a matter of the leak being bad quality. Understandin the ones we can hear is a matter of guesswork and interpretation. Catcher's lyrics aren't as easily interpreted as e.g. Madagascar's or The Blues'.

This song sounds so awesome in the beginning, but I feel it builds and builds and then never really gets to where I was hoping, if that makes sense.

I understand what you mean. But there are a lot of people saying the last verse beginning 'On an ordinary day..' that goes for the last minute and a half is the most powerful part of the song. On several of the other leaks....Mad, Blues, TWAT and I.R.S, the songs build up to really high singing/screaming and huge guitar solos. Catcher does build up to something and I think it's the heightened emotion in the lyrics, melody and vocals in that last verse that have already been discussed here. There are just certain parts that really kill me, particularly 'You were the instrument..' and 'You took our innocence...'.

I think it says such a lot about Axl that he can compose so many different types and styles and sing in so many different voices. Plus, there is just nobody right now in any of the big rock groups from Axl's era who I could imagine writing a song like this. If you listen to the quality of the writing and the uniqueness of the melody and then look at the drivel that e.g. Bon Jovi just released there's just no comparison.

[justynius]

For me the final line is:
You took our innocence beyond odd stares, sometimes we only think we've got it all when noone else is there.

I think you might have got it right with "sometimes we only think we've got it all when no one else is there". That resonates well with the rest of the song ("we're not the only ones", "how it would be all alone"), and Chapman committing the murder because he was jealous of Lennon's fame.

"Beyond odd stares" makes no fucking sense though. Neither do any of the guesses that other people have proposed. I have a feeling the last word of that line will end up being completely different than what everyone thinks once a clearer leak surfaces.

I just realised 'You took our innocence' is surely a reference to Axl and his sister being abused (or even raped as Axl says he found out through regression therapy hence his bad back and posture) by William Rose, their real father.

I'd be careful there.... Innocence isn't just purity, or sexual inexperience. It's also naivety, and a vulnerability to being oppressed and controlled. There are negative connotations to the loss of innocence, but it is also an experience for growth. A worldview based on innocence is an illusion that denies the realities of evil and darkness in the world; that's what the book is about, the problems with trying to force an artificial understanding of what the world should be onto your actual experience of it. The loss of innocence allows you to wake up from the illusion, and grow into seeing that life is imperfect and it's not all fun and games. Kind of like when a singer promising that 'all you need is love' gets gunned down by a psychopath.

If you don't believe me, pay attention to the last verse. Chapman/Holden is the "boy" who took the song/comfort away. When Axl sings "You took our innocence", he's not directing that to Chapman/Holden because he says a line earlier that the person he's talking to "gave that boy a gun". He's talking to Lennon. In the context of the song, 'taking innocence' is an act of empowerment..... showing the world the selfish envy that led Chapman to the murder, and more importantly showing that the potential for those same dark emotions exists in us all.

[littleredcorvette]

Justynius, that's brilliant and very helpful. Thanks. I wish there were more intelligent posters around.

[horsey]

is it about john lennon ?
 my bad yes it is.

[seely]

I actually think that out opf all the leaks we've had so far, it's definately the weakest one out of them all

But yeah, the final verse is pretty cool- but that's it really

I feel the exact same way.
Although, we have only had the one version of it, whereas we have multiple demo's of TWAT, IRS and Better, so that could explain it......

[elevendayempire]

I always thought it was...

"You took our innocence/Beyond those steps/Sometimes we only think we've got it all when no-one else is there."

The "steps" being the steps outside the Dakota building, where Lennon was shot.

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Sometimes we only think we've got it all when no-one else is there."

After careful analysis (ie. sticking the speaker up to my ear - no headphones for me ), I think this is right. Though what I said earlier (the only thing we got at all) could make sense

[Voodoochild]

I think its pretty obvious that the song is about both - book and chapman. And that's what makes it trully beautiful to me, because Axl managed in the lyrics to refer to two things correlated and took them in one story.

[Wheres Izzy]

I actually haven't been able to stop listening to this song lately. I am really dying to hear what a finished version will sound like cause this version is really a beautiful song.

[teamaxl]

I know what you mean.  I think it's one of the best of the new tunes.  Probably one of his best songs ever, and if the demo is anything to go by the final product will be incredible.  As far as the Chapman/Lennon association goes, I always assumed that the song dealt with it in some way just from the title alone.  Hearing it for the first time sealed it in my mind, as I think it's very Lennonesque in it's way. 

[gunns1]

If the song is connected to Mark Chapman in some way, does it show sympathy towards him in some way.

"The Spaghetti Incident?" featured a track called Look at Your Game Girl by Charles Manson.
Axl Rose also took to the stage wearing a read and white T Shirt featuring an image of Charles Manson.

Does Axl have a thing about killers (some killers) 


Mark Chapman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_David_Chapman

Charles Manson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Manson
American rock band Guns N? Roses? drew heavy criticism for recording Manson's "Look at Your Game, Girl," included as an unlisted thirteenth track on the 1993 album "The Spaghetti Incident?"

RED Charles Manson T- Shirt
http://www.charlesmansonfanclub.com/NOVELTY/pages/A1596RED.htm

axls a very political man,

look at the name of the album for christ sakes,
chinese democracy

in nearly every song theirs is probably some hidden meaning/agenda if you look hard enough,

part of the fun really

[Axl4Prez2004]

If the song is connected to Mark Chapman in some way, does it show sympathy towards him in some way.

I don't think so Redsquare.  Just my opinion, but I don't think so.  I don't think it's a sympathy, praise or denigration of Chapman...just a song, and beautifully written by the way.  I get a lot of Holden Caufield out of it.  Holden was very much an observer.  Much like the scene with the protitute (Sunny was her name?  I forget.) he was more an observer than a person of action.  It is a beautiful song.

I must say, upon re-listening the hundreds of times I have, I always picture those opening wails of Axl as something along the lines of what those who heard of Lennon's shooting sounded like.  I always picture Axl waking from a nightmare right before the opening words come out...like he's wailing/moaning in pain in his sleep, before the words come out.  The song to me is like a narration.  Pure gold.   

[teamaxl]

Yeah, I certainly don't see it as sympathy for Chapman.  I see it as kind of coming from the perspective of both Holden Caulfied and Mark David Chapman (as in Chapman saw himself as Caulfield), but that doesn't mean Axl sympathizes with their perspective.  Or let me rephrase that.  That doesn't mean he sympathizes with what Chapman did.  Obviously.  I think axl4prez put it best by saying "I don't think it's a sympathy, praise or denigration of Chapman.  Just a song, and beautifully written by the way."

If any of you guys are interested in reading more about Lennon's final days and the role "Catcher In The Rye" played in Chapman's fateful decision to murder Lennon I would recommend my friend Robert Rosen's book "Nowhere Man".  It's based in part on Lennon's diaries as is Geoffrey Giulliano's "Lost In America", but I think "Nowhere Man" is a better read.  Of course there's scores of Lennon bios out there (a good deal of which I've read) but Bob does a better job than most of explaining the whole "Catcher In The Rye"/Chapman thing. 

http://myspace.com/robertrosen27
http://robertrosen.blogspot.com

And yes, Manson was heavily influenced by the "White Album" and the various secret "messages" he read into it, including all the silly race war stuff.  This is something he later denied, saying that it was more his young followers who were heavily influenced by The Beatles.   What can't be denied though is "White Album" references like "Helter Skelter" and "Pigs" (as in the George Harrison penned "Piggies") being found scrawled in blood at both the Tate and the Labianca murder scenes.  Anyway, here's some links for further reading if anybody's interested.  I must admit, I find the whole Manson thing to be pretty interesting....

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/manson.html
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonbeatles.html

[Dont Try Me]

I really think Catcher in the rye is one of the best new songs Ive heard yet. The vocals sound haunting! Kinda Ozzy-ish? That's what it reminded me of anyway.  Love the breakdown bit too with the feedbacking guitar. And ofcourse Brian May playing on it!

[Lord Kayoss]

CITR is easily my favorite track of all the leaks.  It's deep, inspiring, beautifully written, and just that good.  I'll be sorely disappointed if it's not on Chinese Democracy.

[Jaci_Roxx]

I don't think the song is about anything or anyone in particular. I think he more like wrote thoughts about various subjects. Especially in the poem-like last verse of the song.

[gunns1]

I don't think the song is about anything or anyone in particular. I think he more like wrote thoughts about various subjects. Especially in the poem-like last verse of the song.

Re read this whole thread, Its clearly about the John Lennon and the murderer,
Even the tone of the song is John Lennon-esc

Axl writes songs usually about 1 topic/theme, not about various subjects , imo

[Jaci_Roxx]

I don't think the song is about anything or anyone in particular. I think he more like wrote thoughts about various subjects. Especially in the poem-like last verse of the song.

Re read this whole thread, Its clearly about the John Lennon and the murderer,
Even the tone of the song is John Lennon-esc

Axl writes songs usually about 1 topic/theme, not about various subjects , imo

I read the whole topic.  I just think there's more to it than just Lennon and the murderer. Songs of course can be interpreted in a million ways. What I meant by "various subjects" is that he writes a lot about his feelings and his own personal history, and that makes all his songs, including this one, multidimensional. (I guess that was the word I was looking for.)