How has the members of GN'R inspired you?

[Voodoochild]

Great post ben. I do agree about the comparisons people will do, but it was never meant to be like the old band. If that was the case, we would have Slash's covers - there's plenty of them out there.

Till they release CD, I don't think u can really give them credit one way or the other.

So the new songs we all heard can't be a proof untill its released officially?

Are we really talking about quality or just about popularity?

My biggest problem with the new members wasn't the new members, it was overzealous fans on here tryin to proclaim them greater than Slash and Izzy before they ever released an album.

Why the hell can't someone prefer what they heard on the new material? Or even the new approach of the old songs?

Id go anytime with All Along The Watchtower by Jimi Hendrix. Isn't just a cover, it's a version and they make it their own.

I only pointed out in that forum, that they have to release their own material before they can be judged one way or the other.

I see nothing disrespectful or wrong with that cause its true.

No, you said "These guys havent done anything to deserve my respect."

So you'll pretend to not know any new song untill they be released?

Face it, so far in their careers, the guitar players have yet to write anything legendary,iconic or noteworthy

That isnt hating, its the truth.

No, this is just your biased opinion.

[ben9785]

You got it right on Voodoochild.

D, you are correct in a sense - the band members won't get OFFICIAL credit of their existence in the band and their contributions in songwriting until the release of the album and relevant material 'introducing' the band members.

But these band members are all officially a part of GNR - obviously endorsed and encouraged in their position by Axl, and representing the music and legacy of GNR when they play live around the world on stage. Sure, the audience may not known the band members individually by name, but the fact is that they are the CURRENT members of GNR, in the present tense - Not Slash, Not Duff, Not Izzy, Not Gilby, Not Jarmo or whoever else.

The new songs that we have heard are not hallucinations. They are not cover versions. They're not specifically Axl's songs, or Robin's songs, or Pittman's songs - They are new songs that have been composed by GNR as a collective unit under that band name. Yes, they have yet to be officially released, but they are songs which should now be considered part of the legacy, regardless of personal opinion towards the music. If they were not to be considered as GNR music, then Axl would not have presented them to the public in live performance, regardless of any leaks which would have surfaced.

Absolutely nobody here has proclaimed any of the current members greater than the former members.
There may be people who, in their own PERSONAL OPINION AND CHOICE, preferred one particular band member's approach to a riff, a guitar solo, or a song, over someone else. That is personal opinion. If anything, it is fans around here who criticize the current band members and set expectations against them in comparison to former members or what they generally 'expect'.

Likewise, some people might prefer the new songs over old songs. Again, that is just PERSONAL OPINION and choice. From what I have seen around here, if somebody claims "Better" or "Madagascar" as being a great song or a better song in comparison with another, it is usually done in respectful discussion and opinion. I have yet to see any comments about people dismissing the older material over new songs. Once again, usually its the other way around.

Yeah, the new band members have to release their own material before they can be judged; but its not just new music that is of concern here - even in concert playing the old songs, most of the current band members are still relatively unknown to most of the music world, regardless of discussion around here. The public need to be introduced to the band members, and introduced as INDIVIDUALS, not as a replacement for Slash or Duff or whoever, hence, that should, theoretically, dispel any comparison to former band members because they are individuals, and they should only be judged by their own personal abilities and experience, not in comparison to someone they are not.

Face it, so far in their careers, the guitar players have yet to write anything legendary,iconic or noteworthy

Ok D man, I've appreciated your opinions so far and respected them, but this comment man is out of line.
This becomes a personal hit to the band members completely outside of the current discussion regarding their position in GNR and is not justified. I hope you can see why I say this. Sure, the guitar players are not world class, popular musicians in the same kind of iconic status as Keith Richards or Slash or Jimmy Page or whatever, but that doesn't meant that they are any less 'noteworthy'. They just haven't had the platform to have exposure to the mass music public.

Robin Finck played guitar in NIN, which whether you like them or not, were and still are a cutting edge music act. He has also contributed to Cirque Du Soleil and various soundtrack work in an almost anonymous capacity. He is a unique guitarist who plays with feeling rather than style or, generally, the 'common expectations' of a generic rock guitar player. It is unfortunate that he hasn't had a platform to expose his talent on a global scale, but this is going to be his long overdue curtain call.

Richard Fortus is an accomplished session guitarist who has contributed key guitar work to musicians all across the board as well as soundtracks and even commercial TV. Obviously he isn't so sought after for no reason. Don't forget the Psychedelic Furs either. A great rock band who might not have had global recognition, but nonetheless have their own respected following to this very day. It is unfortunate that he hasn't had a platform to expose his talent on a global scale, but this is going to be his long overdue curtain call.

Bumblefoot is a musical prodigy who is so far below the commercial music radar that its a crime. He is a music professor, making a difference by his contributions to his local community. His songwriting? Go and listen to his solo albums. Maybe not your cup of tea genre-wise, but anybody with a great appreciation for music outside of commercial radio can hear this man is innovative. It is unfortunate that he hasn't had a platform to expose his talent on a global scale, but this is going to be his long overdue curtain call.

I am not biased to any of these people, and I'm particularly not biased to the current GNR lineup over old in any way for any reason.

[D]

Sorry Axl23

I reread your post and instantly edited my post. I was hoping no one would see it.


Ben:

The reason they are judged so harshly is cause they are in Guns N Roses. So their contributions have to be on par with the other members.

No, their contributions DON'T HAVE to be on par with the other members.

As I said before, the current band members have joined GNR as new individuals who bring their own personality, experience, musical background and style to the band. They are unique individuals different to the former members of GNR, who do not intend to replicate or match or equal the expectations of members who are no longer in the band.

From a FAN point of view, yes, I understand that people expect them to match the contributions and quality of the former members that they have come to love and be associated with the band, but the truth is that, as hard as it may be, those band members are now gone. The new band members have joined and reinvented the band with their own individual elements, rather than recreating what was before.

Is it fair? NO

But thats what happens when u keep the name Guns N Roses. Everything u do has to compare with Guns N Roses and will be judged very very highly. So their riffs,solos and songs are gonna be compared to Appetite. Not fair but thats just how it is.

[D]

NAME ONE NOTEWORTHY,LEGENDARY, ICONIC RIFF OR Song any of these guys have written...


Give me one title.


Trent Reznor wrote the guitar parts in NIN, Robin only played them live.



Im not speaking of forum members and their blind love, Im t alkin bout how the outside world, the media, the casual fans etc etc will react.


U guys get mad at me for being honest.

Im not disrespecting or talkin shit about the band. Truth is, they have yet to do anything noteworthy that will be remembered in Rock N Roll History.

When CD comes out, we will see how well their material fairs. Until then, the jury is out. Im speaking of GNR in a broad sense, on a history level. Not a fans opinion level cause our opinions dont count cause we are in the minority cause we are hardcore fans. To us everything is amazing but u got to take a step back and see how the world reacts.

We won't know that till CD comes out and only then can we truly gauge this band's greatness on a history scale.


Voodoo u play guitar so u should know better.

What is harder, Copying someone elses material and adding a little extra, or writing something from scratch? Does that even need an answer?

[ben9785]

No, as I said none of these guys have played in bands that have given them the platform to have made a 'noteworthy', 'legendary' iconic impact on the music scene.

Remember that Slash wasn't just born a music icon. He worked his way up and got the kind of status based on the success that GNR eventually bought for him.

As I said before, yes, i completely understand, the general public will inevitably "compare" the new members contributions to the old lineup, but theoretically and truthfully, the current band members are NOT intended to 'replace' or 'stand in' for any of the former members. These guys bring their own character to the band.

Yes, the public will criticize, but it is unfair because the band members have ultimately reinvented the band. It's not the same band. It's not MEANT to be the same band.

And of course they haven't made an impact yet musically because the album hasn't been OFFICIALLY released and they haven't been given a chance to formally stand and be introduced to the world and have their songwriting talent recognized.

BUT, we have heard their contributions, we have heard new songs, and we know that the potential is there.

At the right time, they will get their due.

Hey man, no hard feelings right? Don't want you to think I'm taking a shot at you. This is good discusion.

[Voodoochild]

NAME ONE NOTEWORTHY,LEGENDARY, ICONIC RIFF OR Song any of these guys have written...


Give me one title.

So, you're talking about popularity.

I could care less if they are not iconic for the majority of the outside world.

FOR ME, the Better riff is legendary, it's one of the greatest riff of the last many years. So is TWAT and The Blues solos.
Trent Reznor wrote the guitar parts in NIN, Robin only played them live.

Im not speaking of forum members and their blind love, Im t alkin bout how the outside world, the media, the casual fans etc etc will react.

So anyone who disagree with your opinion has blind love?

U guys get mad at me for being honest.

You're being honest about your opinion about popularity. I'm being honest about my opinion on the quality of the new members and songs. I just can't understand why you care so much about the recognizability they (should) have now until they release officially the album.

Im not disrespecting or talkin shit about the band. Truth is, they have yet to do anything noteworthy that will be remembered in Rock N Roll History.

Again, you're talking about popularity. So you can only love this band once they get the album out? IMHO, I don't have to wait for the rest of the world to like what they did so far.

When CD comes out, we will see how well their material fairs. Until then, the jury is out. Im speaking of GNR in a broad sense, on a history level. Not a fans opinion level cause our opinions dont count cause we are in the minority cause we are hardcore fans. To us everything is amazing but u got to take a step back and see how the world reacts.

We won't know that till CD comes out and only then can we truly gauge this band's greatness on a history scale.

Well, I don't expect that. For obvious reasons, Id love to have the new band getting at the same level of the old one in popularity and success. Unfortunately, the world changed a lot since then and I think it's kinda hard to achieve that... But, if they can't be as successful as the old guys, it won't change the fact that I love them.

Voodoo u play guitar so u should know better.

What is harder, Copying someone elses material and adding a little extra, or writing something from scratch? Does that even need an answer?

So, you're still ignoring the new songs?

And yeah, it's harder to make a successful song better with a new approach because the bar is too high. Why do you think so many cover bands keep anonymous for the rest of their life?

Anyways, I'm insisting on take the new songs in consideration as they had been played live many times already and, in some way, it was "released" in public and officially.

[ben9785]

I know that, quality of songwriting and performance aside, I'm not sure exactly what the chances are of the new GNR and a new album reaching the standards of GNR back in the 90s. It's got nothing to do with the fact that the band members have changed, or Axl's old or whatever - It's the fact that music has changed alot since then. Look at all the bands coming out these days on top of the billboard charts and whatever. It's all retro rock, zeppelin rip-offs, weird electronic shit, art rock and whatever else.

The public may be interested to hear new material on the premise that it is Axl's official return to the music world, but the truth is that most of the public will probably be steered away because of the press who will undoubtedly be criticizing Axl and the album because they are bitter that Slash and Duff aren't in the band - without any justice towards the quality of the music itself.

Going on with Voodoochild, "Better" is an innovative song. For all of the bands who are out there trying so hard to be "classic rock" or "retro rock" or whatever, this is a fine piece of modern rock songwriting that has a modern feel and edge but just enough quality and musical technicality that any young Jimmy Page wannabes out there will go sulking back to their bedrooms.

[CaughtMeInaComa]

FOR ME, the Better riff is legendary, it's one of the greatest riff of the last many years.

I totally agree, that riff is AWSOME! It's my fovorite. It's the best of the new songs! Especially BH's guitar . The other songs are just ok.

[Voodoochild]

I like everything in Better, but Robin's solo, Bucket's first licks after the first chorus and right before Robin's solo and specially Axl's vocals are way beyond everything out there. People may got used to the song, but it still amazes me everytime I listen to it with good headphones. I still remember how shocked I got when i first listened and how I got awe...

But I can say the same for Rhiad. I love the guitar work on it and Brain's drums rocks really hard. It's a shame how some judge it for the bad quality bootlegs, tho.

I know that, quality of songwriting and performance aside, I'm not sure exactly what the chances are of the new GNR and a new album reaching the standards of GNR back in the 90s. It's got nothing to do with the fact that the band members have changed, or Axl's old or whatever - It's the fact that music has changed alot since then. Look at all the bands coming out these days on top of the billboard charts and whatever. It's all retro rock, zeppelin rip-offs, weird electronic shit, art rock and whatever else.

Makes sense. Everyone in rock now is trying to sound kinda retro. Maybe the only ones who really makes something new is QOTSA. Nothing wrong with being retro, I love Black Crowes, but it's about time to move on and try something new. That's why I love Bucket's work on Better, it's avant-gard specially when he uses the killswitch.

The public may be interested to hear new material on the premise that it is Axl's official return to the music world, but the truth is that most of the public will probably be steered away because of the press who will undoubtedly be criticizing Axl and the album because they are bitter that Slash and Duff aren't in the band - without any justice towards the quality of the music itself.

Check out the leaks on youtube and read the comments. People already criticize Axl and the new songs just because Slash isn't there anymore. Yeah, I only said Slash because I'm sure average people wouldn't give a fuck if the rest of the guys weren't there anymore, even Izzy (I know, it's ignorance).

Going on with Voodoochild, "Better" is an innovative song. For all of the bands who are out there trying so hard to be "classic rock" or "retro rock" or whatever, this is a fine piece of modern rock songwriting that has a modern feel and edge but just enough quality and musical technicality that any young Jimmy Page wannabes out there will go sulking back to their bedrooms.

You said it all. It's something really new, not trying to achieve a retro-sound because the trend.

People still compares it with some NIN or Korn-a-like bands, but I'm still to find any of their songs that really sounds similar to Better. Hell, people can't even realize how a drop-D chord is something as old as the rock itself, but still call the heavy sound of it as "new metal" shit. Well, what can I expect, people still thinks Better chords are just power chords and the riff is done with only one string...

[AxlsMainMan]

I like everything in Better, but Robin's solo

How come you don't like Robin's solo?

I think it's awesome, and compliments the song perfectly.

[Voodoochild]

Actually I didn't mean that (english is not my first lang).

I was saying that I like everything in Better specially Robin's solo and etc..

[AxlsMainMan]

Nah, I think I just read your post too fast.

Sorry about that

[Voodoochild]

No prob!

Oh, I forgot to mention that I LOVE that riff just after the Pitman break. Really cool with weird tempo.

[ben9785]

I understand people are disappointed that the classic lineup doesn't exist, so am I, but whatever's happened is done, there's no use trying to be bitter about it. But, yes, this is going to be one of the big problems when people start discussing the new music further upon the release of the album. They won't appreciate the songwriting for what it is, they will always continue to lament the loss of Slash and Duff. It's really not fair.

It's not fair to Axl, but more importantly than Axl, it's not fair to the other members of the band who are all talented musicians in their own right and who deserve more recognition.

Anyway, I'm just repeating myself now from my previous posts.

[D]

This is a good discussion


We are speaking honestly here, Remember, I do like this band but I am gonna be honest. Im gonna judge them by who they are replacing.

If I am comparing these songs to stuff out today, they are amazing

Compared to the GNR classics though is what I am doing which is why I may sound a little harsh some times.


lets start with my true feelings on the songs and remember, I am not hating or bashing, this is my honest feelings:


Madagascar By far the best GNR leak, I have been listening to this song for 7 years now and it still is awesome and i never tire of it. It ranks easily in the top 10 GNR songs ever. It is definitely up there in the Don't Cry level of song.
The quotes are a great idea but sometimes it makes me think this is the section of the song that would've had a legendary Signature Slash solo. Its almost like they couldn't make a great solo so they filled that section in with movie quotes. Id prefer a solo but thats just me. the lack of a great solo is the only thing stopping it from breaking into what I consider the top Tier/Level of GNR songs.

Better: Great song, absolutely Robin Finck's finest hour. IF he played all solos in this manner, Id adore the guy, his Solo is remarkable in this song. Lyrics and melodies are great, everything about this song is awesome. Only negative is sometimes it seems a little "Poppy" like GNR really trying to write a hit kind of deal. The leak doesn't get into the top level but it certainly is with Madagscar on the YCBM, DC level. I really wish Axl would leave out Pittman's farting bleeps also as they add nothing to the song. If u are gonna do the Pro Tool industrial stuff, at least do something cool there. See NIN The Great Destroyer outro.

Catcher In The Rye: Song has loads of potential, cant wait to hear the finished product. The recording we have is kind of rough, so its hard to make a clear judgement. I think if this song has the right Guitar solo etc, it could also break into the top level of GNR songs. at worst though, it also is in the DC range.

TWAT: I liked this song at first, now I can't really listen to it. I think this is definitely the song GNR fans overrate the most. Lyrics don't make a whole lot of sense. Axl actually rhymes "ALL" with "ALL"  Chorus is pretty weak. I hate the cheesy guitar run before the chorus.  I love the outro, the "I wouldve done anything for you* but once again, the guitar doesn't match the emotion and power of Axl's vocals. Listen to NR/SCOM etc how Slash is able to match Axl's emotion and intensity. The NEW guitar players have to be able to do this or the songs won't reach that iconic, amazing level of GNR past. TWAT comes so close, SOOOOO close but not quite. Hopefully in the final version it will. If it does, this song is right up there, if it doesnt, I put this one closer to the bottom of the 2nd tier maybe third level song.

IRS: Absolute Filler. the song is a weaker less focused Garden of Eden that is structure and riff deficient.

The Blues: now we are to the song that pisses me off the most. the RIRIII version is one of the greatest songs EVER. I rank it almost up there with Estranged for me. it is soooooooooooooooooo close to Estranged level its crazy.

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

Every version since RIRIII is lifeless, boring and puts me to sleep. I cannot even listen to any other version of this song and that is what happens when u fuck with something that is perfect for too long in the studio. RIRIII version puts goosebumps on me and gets me watery eyed.  Every other version is torture to listen to.  The intro Axl does live is some of the greatest singing ever laid down. The rasp does not fit this song or the intro. Its too slow or something now. Im not even sure what happened.


Chinese Democracy: It has definitely been improved tremendously. Very un GNR sounding song which is good. I think its a good not great song. Definitely not one I imagine myself listening to in 10 years. I really don't get a huge desire to put this song on.

Top level GNR songs No particular order
1.Welcome To The Jungle
2.Sweet Child O mine
3. Paradise City
4. November Rain
5. Coma
6. Estranged

Next Tier U get the idea
1.Dont Cry
2. Nightrain
3. Its So Easy
4. You Could Be Mine
5. Patience
6. Locomotive
7.Civil War

third level:
1. Pretty Tied up
2. The Garden
3. RNDTH
4. Perfect Crime



Basically from the Demos, these songs outside of Better have no riff to speak of that is memorable or great. The solos are ok, nothing amazing and the drumming is standard everyday studio musician drumming. I have heard no drumming that wows me in any live version or anything and thats unfortunate.

[Jim Bob]

nice posts voodoo in dealing with D and his slash blinders/bias/agenda.

[Voodoochild]

Thanks man. Just wonder why he didn't want to answer my post, but oh well...

Anyways, talking about drums: Rhiad and OMG (studio with Josh Freese) are two of the most kick ass drum songs I've heard in quite sometime along with Matt Cameron (with Fiona Apple) and Dave Grohl (with FF and QOTSA in some late '90s).

All I wish is to have the same drumming on Rhiad on the album (I'm sure it will make it on the tracklist). Brain kicked so much ass in the Las Vegas 2000 version...

[AxlsMainMan]

The drumming on There Was A Time is incredible too

[D]

Thanks man. Just wonder why he didn't want to answer my post, but oh well...

Anyways, talking about drums: Rhiad and OMG (studio with Josh Freese) are two of the most kick ass drum songs I've heard in quite sometime along with Matt Cameron (with Fiona Apple) and Dave Grohl (with FF and QOTSA in some late '90s).

All I wish is to have the same drumming on Rhiad on the album (I'm sure it will make it on the tracklist). Brain kicked so much ass in the Las Vegas 2000 version...

I answered your post with my big long drawn out one on the new songs.

Here is where u Voodoo and others are getting off track.

GNR are a MAINSTREAM POPULAR band. So yes, Popularity and how they are received is a HUGE PART of what will determine their success.


As I stated. The opinions of us on here do not matter whatsoever. We will love anything Axl does. I LOVE SILKWORMS for Fuck's sake if that tells u anything.


The fate and success of this band is gonna be determined not what we think, but how well the album and songs are received.

IF the album flops commercially and has no hits and nothing remarkable, it will go down in music history as one of the biggest flops and disappointments ever.

U have a band in GNR that sold over 40 million copies of just 5 albums in the UNITED STATES ALONE!

Im not sure Bon Jovi with their 11 albums have even hit 40 million in the US.

F

[Voodoochild]

And again you missed the point. Popularity has NOTHING to do with quality or else we wouldn't have garbage like Gimme More by Britney Spears on top charts. GNR WERE a mainstream band, who knows if it will be again. Like I said, things changed way too much to expect the same level of popularity.

Also, there's a big chance that people could react to the changes. It won't matter the quality of the songs, people may still judge the album by what it isn't - just like you did with your post about the new songs. That's also why I don't give a shit about popularity.

All you said is how the new songs could be better with former members, as if it doesn't matter how good they are, it could be better if Slash were on it. That tells a lot already, but anyways... Before this other post, you just ignored the new songs and said the new members couldn't be respected because they didn't release anything, like the shows and even the leaks never existed for you. You just insisted in how could only be respectful if CD has success.

All I'm saying is I don't care how much success it will have, I already love the new band and the new songs (except Silkworms for fucks sake) and I don't need to wait for the release to make my own mind about them. I'd still support them. I'd still go to concerts.

If Chinese Democracy will be a big flop, so what? As fas as I like it, I don't care. Of course it would be cool to have success because there's more things that would come with it (more singles, videos, interviews, articles, b-sides, dvds, other albums), but it would be just a great bonus to me.

The thing is that you can't stand to Guns N' Roses as what they are now. Maybe you should move on and either give up or just try to accept how the new music has nothing to do with former members - this is not disrespecting, its just the truth. You may be very disappointed if you still expect them to be like others.