2008 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You're in denial. 

[pilferk]

And as for Sabathia being CLEARLY better than Beckett and CLEARLY more deserving of the Cy Young.  I'm not so sure about that.  Their numbers are quite similar.

Sabathia - GS-34, 19-7, CG-4, SO-1, IP-241, H-238, HR-20, BB-37, K-209, ERA-3.21, WHIP-1.14, BA-.259
Beckett   - GS-30, 20-7, CG-1, SO-0. IP-201, H-189, HR-17, BB-40, K-194, ERA-3.27, WHIP-1.14, BA-.245


So Sabathia did have more starts and pitched more innings, BUT Beckett had one more win in 4 less starts and the Sox and Indians won the same amount of games that year.  Sabathia gave up more hits per inning but Beckett walked more.  Beckett had more K's/9 and had a better BA against.  Looks pretty even to me.  My tiebreaker would've been the fact that Beckett was a 20 game winner that year.  Sounds better for the Cy Young winner to be a 20 game winner.

And for as "bad" a season Beckett had last year, if you look at the numbers it really wasn't THAT bad.  Better than Burnett, aside from the record.  He was 12-10 with a 4.03 ERA and 1.19 WHIP.

Sabathia's numbers are better because he was a workhorse.  More innings, more starts, more K's (not /9, but overall).  His ERA is lower (and at that level, in one season, the .06 might seem small, but is a big differentiator).  He gave up fewer walks and fewer homers in relation to IP.  I'll grant you, maybe "far better" was a bit much.  But when looking at the stat line, it doesn't seem like there would be a "tie".  The ONLY marked thing Burnett had was one more win in fewer starts.  I don't think the fewer starts helps his cause, acutally.

[pilferk]

You're in denial. 

How so, exactly?

"Denial" would seem to me to indicate looking at the aquisitions and denying they make the Yanks better.

How is acknowledging that "denial", exactly?  Simply saying it doesn't make much of a case....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You're in denial. 

How so, exactly?

"Denial" would seem to me to indicate looking at the aquisitions and denying they make the Yanks better.

How is acknowledging that "denial", exactly?  Simply saying it doesn't make much of a case....

Pilferk: Hi, I'm Pilferk.

Everyone at denial meeting: Hiiiiiiii Pilferk!

Bottom line is, you can try to prove to us on paper how good the Yankees are, but you haven't been getting results for years now. 

[faldor]

And as for Sabathia being CLEARLY better than Beckett and CLEARLY more deserving of the Cy Young.  I'm not so sure about that.  Their numbers are quite similar.

Sabathia - GS-34, 19-7, CG-4, SO-1, IP-241, H-238, HR-20, BB-37, K-209, ERA-3.21, WHIP-1.14, BA-.259
Beckett   - GS-30, 20-7, CG-1, SO-0. IP-201, H-189, HR-17, BB-40, K-194, ERA-3.27, WHIP-1.14, BA-.245


So Sabathia did have more starts and pitched more innings, BUT Beckett had one more win in 4 less starts and the Sox and Indians won the same amount of games that year.  Sabathia gave up more hits per inning but Beckett walked more.  Beckett had more K's/9 and had a better BA against.  Looks pretty even to me.  My tiebreaker would've been the fact that Beckett was a 20 game winner that year.  Sounds better for the Cy Young winner to be a 20 game winner.

And for as "bad" a season Beckett had last year, if you look at the numbers it really wasn't THAT bad.  Better than Burnett, aside from the record.  He was 12-10 with a 4.03 ERA and 1.19 WHIP.

Sabathia's numbers are better because he was a workhorse.  More innings, more starts, more K's (not /9, but overall).  His ERA is lower (and at that level, in one season, the .06 might seem small, but is a big differentiator).  He gave up fewer walks and fewer homers in relation to IP.  I'll grant you, maybe "far better" was a bit much.  But when looking at the stat line, it doesn't seem like there would be a "tie".  The ONLY marked thing Burnett had was one more win in fewer starts.  I don't think the fewer starts helps his cause, acutally.

I know this doesn't factor into it, since the voting is done before post-season starts, but it just looked ridiculous.  When Beckett completely outpitched Sabathia in the playoffs.  CC had a horrendous October and a few weeks later received his Cy Young, while Beckett got a World Series ring.  It was a little melodramatic.  This is a different argument altogether but they should either count post-season performances in the voting OR announce the awards before the playoffs begin.  Because it just didn't seem right CC getting the Cy after pitching so horribly in the biggest games of the year.

[pilferk]

Pilferk, I'll stick to my guns whether you want to believe me or not, the signings the Yanks have made so far don't scare me.  I still think the Sox are a better overall team, and Tampa as well.  I think all three teams have solid rotations but none is THAT much better than another.  You haven't brought up the fact that Mussina is gone.  Now I'll admit I thought he was garbage going into last season, but he went on to win 20 games.  I don't think you could expect much more than that from CC, so that's pretty much a wash.

I don't know how the fuck Mussina pulled last year out of his ass.  I think he was lucky, crafty, and got out of Dodge at exactly the right time.  I don't think he'd have a shot in hell of winning 20 this year, so....while CC might be a wash over last year, I think he's a huge upgrade compared to Mussina's potential for THIS year.  I think AJ is easily good for 3 more wins than we got out of our 2, last year.  I think Wang is good for 4 or 5 more than we got out of our 3.  I think Joba is easily good enough to eke out 4 or 5 more wins than we got out of our 4 last year.  And Pettite/Sheets/Lowe would all be good enough to eke out 5 more wins than we got out of our 5 spot last year.  Look at it spot by spot over what we did last year...which was deplorable.  You HONESTLY don't think we're better than we were last year, decemated by injuries with a cobbled together rotation?  HONESTLY?  And we were in the hunt for the wild card in August til the pitching finally just shit the bed and caved in.....

  You're banking on Burnett, Wang, and Chamberlain to have stellar years.  I don't blame you for thinking that, just as I think Beckett, Lester, Dice K is among the best 1-2-3 punches there is.

No, the point is...they don't have to have stellar years.  Career average years, all the way around, would do just fine.  That's my point.  

  Burnett hasn't lived up to the hype, plain and simple.  Has he had a good career so far, yes.  But I've heard so many executives, players, etc. say he has the best stuff in baseball.  He got that 5 year deal with outrageous money on "potential" not his career 3.81 ERA.  I'm not even figuring in his W-L record.  I realize he played on some poor Marlin teams, and also in a pitcher friendly park.  In comparison to Dice K, both pitchers have trouble staying within the strike zone. 

The point being....he doesn't need to live up to the hype.  He just needs to pitch like he as, career wise, with maybe a few more starts than his average.  His strike to ball ratio is pretty good, IMHO.

But Dice K had FAR BETTER #'s last year.  2.90 ERA, 1.32 WHIP.  As for him slipping down the stretch in September he had a 3.33 ERA and a 1.30 WHIP.  He had ONE bad month in June which he only had 2 starts and got hurt in one of them.  Burnett had an ERA of over a run higher than him.  I'm not sure if he was on the Sox, their defense alone would've dropped his ERA from 4.07 to 2.90, that's a bit of a stretch.  And yes I know you'll argue that Dice K wasn't that good 2 years ago.  That was his first season in America.  I'd think that'd be a bit of a culture shock and would understand the need for adjustment.  I'd put more stock into last season, than his first.

Right, you're assuming a duplicate of a career year.  How is that any more "off" than what you're accusing me of, above?  Personally, I put more stock in something between his first and his second season.  More like his later months (with an ERA in the mid 3's and the inconsistent potential to get shelled).  There's more evidence of that than of the career months he had scattered through last year.

The only thing we agree on is I WOULD be worried if the Yankees signed either Texeira or (gulp) Manny.  But until then I'll stack up the Sox current roster against the Yankees all day long.  I think the pitching staffs match up pretty evenly and I think the Sox have a deeper and more consistent lineup than the Yanks.  Now you can say I'm delusional if you'd like, I'm not saying the Yankees are a bad team because of their recent signings.  I'm just saying I still think the Sox AND Rays are better.  Then again, what kind of fan would I be if I thought otherwise?  And the same goes for you too, obviously you SHOULD be excited about CC and AJ, and you SHOULD think that could put them over the top.  That's what being a fan is all about.

I wouldn't call it delusional though.

I don't want Manny...but I think we might get him, and he'd probably be GREAT in protecting A-rod (sorta like he did with Ortiz).  He might be driven to cream the Sox, though...so that might work to our advantage.  I don't think we'll get Texeira...I'm not sure we really want him.   I suspect the Yankees are just trying to drive up the price...but we'll see.

And I disagree.  I think NOT acknowledging the upgrades the Yanks have made make them dangerous is massively delusional.  That's OK...it's every fans right.  But I suspect, deep down inside.......if we're being honest...there's no way you look at the Yanks aquisitions and say "Meh.....they're no better than last year....we don't have to worry about 'em".  No way....

[pilferk]

You're in denial. 

How so, exactly?

"Denial" would seem to me to indicate looking at the aquisitions and denying they make the Yanks better.

How is acknowledging that "denial", exactly?  Simply saying it doesn't make much of a case....

Pilferk: Hi, I'm Pilferk.

Everyone at denial meeting: Hiiiiiiii Pilferk!

Bottom line is, you can try to prove to us on paper how good the Yankees are, but you haven't been getting results for years now. 

How many straight AL East titles did we win?  How many playoffs in a row?

How is that not results?  I realize everyone wants to hold the Yankees up to the "If you don't win the WS, it's a failure season" litmus (including the Yanks organization), but...really?  You telling me you wouldn't do backflips, as a Cubs fan, to go on a run like the Yanks past 10+ years?

Again, not much of a case for 'denial'.  More just a general paiting of yourself as a Yankee hater....which is fine.  Yanks fans expect it.

In fact, I've said we're talking about "on paper".  But "on paper" is all we got in December.....we'll only see what happens come the season start.

If your rationalization to not being worried is "well, they haven't gotten results recently so they won't now".....well, I'd argue THAT'S denial, or pretty gross rationalization, at best.  Different year, different club.  That's one of the beauties of baseball....

[novemberparadise23]

As a yankee fan Im very happy about adding some quality depth to the rotation

What everyone forgets about last years yankee team is that Chien Ming Wang got hurt and only had 8 wins when in the previouse 2 years he won 19 each year.
Jorge Posada went from batting 338 with 90 rbi's  in 144 games played to playing only 51 games with a bum shoulder last year
And Arod missing a good portion of last year also didnt help

Now i dont wanna sound like a crying yankee fan because every team has years that are injury plagued and that can't be used as an excuse. However, i just feel that this year couldn't be as bad injury wise especially in the rotation with the depth added and the fact that Wang's injury was a freak foot injury and not a lingering arm injury. I do fear Burnett's arm injury past, but if he stay's healthy he is an extrordinary talent.

And to the rumors that they might be after manny....... Arod followed by Manny with jeter, damon setting the table....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

You're in denial. 

How so, exactly?

"Denial" would seem to me to indicate looking at the aquisitions and denying they make the Yanks better.

How is acknowledging that "denial", exactly?  Simply saying it doesn't make much of a case....

Pilferk: Hi, I'm Pilferk.

Everyone at denial meeting: Hiiiiiiii Pilferk!

Bottom line is, you can try to prove to us on paper how good the Yankees are, but you haven't been getting results for years now. 

How many straight AL East titles did we win?  How many playoffs in a row?

How is that not results?  I realize everyone wants to hold the Yankees up to the "If you don't win the WS, it's a failure season" litmus (including the Yanks organization), but...really?  You telling me you wouldn't do backflips, as a Cubs fan, to go on a run like the Yanks past 10+ years?

Again, not much of a case for 'denial'.  More just a general paiting of yourself as a Yankee hater....which is fine.  Yanks fans expect it.

In fact, I've said we're talking about "on paper".  But "on paper" is all we got in December.....we'll only see what happens come the season start.

If your rationalization to not being worried is "well, they haven't gotten results recently so they won't now".....well, I'd argue THAT'S denial, or pretty gross rationalization, at best.  Different year, different club.  That's one of the beauties of baseball....

The franchise has been on the decline since 2000.  

Yes, everyone expects the Yankees to win the WS every year, considering the huge amounts of money they spend year after year.  And we have to hear it from Steinbrenner and his boys every day.  

The Captain is not getting any younger.

Yeah, I'm a Yankee hater, but they get absolutely no credit for going on shopping sprees and losing all the time.

Settling for playoff appearances now are we?  How the mighty have fallen.

Sports teams go through cycles, your Yankees aren't immune to it, as much as you would like to think otherwise.  Things are going to get much worse before they get better.

[faldor]

pilferk, I don't think I ever said I don't think the Yankees are any better.  I think I've stated pretty clearly that I do think they've gotten better, I'm just not convinced they've gotten THAT much better and I believe the Sox are still a better overall team despite their additions. 

Dice K had a career year last year?  His career has consisted of 2 years.  I guess Dustin Pedroia had a career year last year too then.  I personally don't think you can classify a career year after only 2 seasons in the majors.  He had an inconsistent first year in the majors and improved last season.  Although I will say, he had the ugliest 18-3, 2.90 ERA season that's ever been had in the history of the major leagues.  But he had it, it happened, you can't deny that.  I guess you could, and maybe you are, saying a lot of luck was involved last season.  Again though, I see Burnett in the same light. 

The Yankees had some bad luck/injuries, etc. last season, no doubt.  But let's not pretend like it was a storybook season for the Red Sox.  The Manny Ramirez saga weighed down on the club and they reached a real low point prior to the All Star break.  The team improved dramatically after he was traded.  They have a pretty deep lineup even if they don't get Texeira, although I'd be worried about Lowell being able to stay healthy.

As for the Yankee regulars bouncing back.  You can't exactly count on that.  Let's face it.  Jeter, Damon, and Posada aren't getting any younger and they all had down years last year (Posada and Damon dealt with injuries).  Cano was so inconsistent he was benched towards the end of the season.  Melky Cabrera was so bad he was sent down to AAA.  Nady only hit .268 with the Yanks.  Nick Swisher hit .219 last year and is a career .244 hitter.  Really A-Rod is the only one who had a really good year at the plate. 

So remind me again why I should be scared?

[novemberparadise23]

Well numerous MlB executives and General Managers have stated that they believe Cano is going to win a batting title, so i believe he will have a bounce back year. He was an all star two years ago and looked like garbage last year.

Posada's terrible season was completly due to injury and im not saying he is going to hit 338 like he did two years ago, but a healthy posada batting 280 or 285 with 80 RBI's i would take in a heartbeat.

A healthy Wang with the addition of Sabbathia is a nice two headed monster.

Burnett is a wildcard that could be basically a third number 1 caliber starter or an injury waiting to happen. If he stays healthy he has always pitched well against the red sox.

If we do resign pettite which i think we will, Im confident he will have a bounce back year just because of the faith i have in the man after pitching so many quality years in pinstripes.

Also if you guys remember a Sunday night game after the all star break between the Red Sox Josh Beckett and The Yanks Joba Chamberlin. Joba twirled a jem. 7 innings o runs in fenway on Sunday night baseball and the yanks won 1-0. That night we saw the potential of Joba to also be a front line starter. If he materializes to that then we have an earth shattering rotation.

Finally a full year of Damaso Marte in the bullpen will also be good

Should the Yankees be the favorites going into the season after last year? Who knows. In my opinion they are, but who am I to know for certain 

If they somehow get Manny i will change my answer to the yankees being unquestionable favorites 

[faldor]

No doubt sky is the limit for Joba.  And he pitched real great against the Sox last year.  I think they beat him in one game just because they were able to make him work in the 5th and 6th innings and get him out of there, much like the Yanks used to do to Pedro back in the day.

I agree Posada should bounce back, if healthy, to .280, 80 RBI's or so.  I don't have the stats but I remember Burnett pitching pretty well against the Sox.  CC's numbers on the other hand, aren't that great against them.

Cano had a pretty bad/inconsistent year last year, but I think he'll bounce back.  He's too good not to.  I have a feeling the Yankees will be the favorite going into the season, at least by the media.  I'd lean towards the Sox obviously, but I don't think the Rays were a one shot wonder.  They should definitely be in the mix. 

[freedom78]

A healthy Wang with the addition of Sabbathia is a nice two headed monster.

Anyone else find this to be hysterical, for totally non-baseball reasons? 

"A healthy Wang" leading to a "two headed monster"? 

Anyone?  No? 

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

A healthy Wang with the addition of Sabbathia is a nice two headed monster.

Anyone else find this to be hysterical, for totally non-baseball reasons? 

"A healthy Wang" leading to a "two headed monster"? 

Anyone?  No? 

Here in the San Fernando Valley, male porno "actors" dive deep into the Black Market to get their hands on some Sabbathia to pass their "auditions."  It's the newest thing in hardcore.

Soon, Jim Bob will see the Sabbathia craze hit Vegas.

[novemberparadise23]

  Now that I reflect on the healthy wang two headed monster phrase i used before, I agree that it wasn't the wisest choice of words

[pilferk]

The franchise has been on the decline since 2000.

When you win a slew of WS titles in a bunch....you sorta expect a leveling off.  ANYWHERE you go is down.  It has to be.  And if you're realistic you DO expect it....you can't win every year.  You just can't.  No matter how much you spend, or how good you are.

Yes, everyone expects the Yankees to win the WS every year, considering the huge amounts of money they spend year after year.  And we have to hear it from Steinbrenner and his boys every day. 

Right, you expect unrealistic things.  Steinbrenner(s), Cashman, etc...it's their JOB to expect unrealistic things.  It's their JOB to build a team that can compete for a WS every year, and of course they're going to say something to that effect constantly.  That's why they can AFFORD to do what they do.  If you choose to buy into that....more power to you.  I'll rah rah with the best of 'em, when it's time for that.....but you can't actually buy 100% into the hype machine.  I want them to win every year.  I don't actually expect them to.

The Captain is not getting any younger.

Obviously.  Nobody is.  What's your point?  Do you have one? Or are we just spouting plattitudes.

Yeah, I'm a Yankee hater, but they get absolutely no credit for going on shopping sprees and losing all the time.

Again, define "losing all the time"?  Not making the playoffs one year?  I agree...disappointing.  They were also riddled with injuries, and took some risks that, IMHO, were bad...and didn't pan out (Hughes, Kennedy...WAY too early).  But "losing all the time"?  Perhaps we should revisit their overall record over the past 10 years....hell, even 5 years... and compare it to the rest of the leagues?  They hardly "lose all the time".

Settling for playoff appearances now are we?  How the mighty have fallen.

Not at all...but it is the litmus test for the REST of the league.  That's my point.  For the REST of the league, making the playoffs is a successful season.  The minute the Yankees don't win the WS...they failed.  Well, by that margin, EVERY team in the majors failed last year except the Phillies.  So the Cubs, Sox, Rays, etc....all sucked out?  Of course not...but as a Yankee hater you'll hold them to the highest possible litmus, just so you can tear them down, point, and laugh...all the while WISHING your team could go on a run like the one they've been on.

Sports teams go through cycles, your Yankees aren't immune to it, as much as you would like to think otherwise.  Things are going to get much worse before they get better.

I agree, they go through cycles.  And I have news for you:  I've been a Yanks fan since the lat 70's/early 80's.  I KNOW what the bottom feels like just like I know what the top feels like.  You, as a hater, HOPE they get worse.  With what we've lined up, it looks to me like they've stopped the bleeding.  We'll see if they're successful or not.  It's better than sitting back and watching the patient bleed out...though I'm sure that's the course all the Yankee haters would prefer.

[pilferk]

pilferk, I don't think I ever said I don't think the Yankees are any better.  I think I've stated pretty clearly that I do think they've gotten better, I'm just not convinced they've gotten THAT much better and I believe the Sox are still a better overall team despite their additions. 

6 games.  They were 6 games better last year.  ANY better and the Yanks are breathing down your neck.  So, if you acknowledge they just got better......

Dice K had a career year last year?  His career has consisted of 2 years.  I guess Dustin Pedroia had a career year last year too then.  I personally don't think you can classify a career year after only 2 seasons in the majors.  He had an inconsistent first year in the majors and improved last season.  Although I will say, he had the ugliest 18-3, 2.90 ERA season that's ever been had in the history of the major leagues.  But he had it, it happened, you can't deny that.  I guess you could, and maybe you are, saying a lot of luck was involved last season.  Again though, I see Burnett in the same light. 

It's the best season of his career, to date.  But looking at how inconsistent it was, and how relatively poor the first season was, my point is I don't think you can assume you'll see the same stats you did last year.  You just can't....there's not enough data behind it.  If you look at the sum total of his work over the past 2 years, there's easily as much to support something more in line with an average.

The Yankees had some bad luck/injuries, etc. last season, no doubt.  But let's not pretend like it was a storybook season for the Red Sox.  The Manny Ramirez saga weighed down on the club and they reached a real low point prior to the All Star break.  The team improved dramatically after he was traded.  They have a pretty deep lineup even if they don't get Texeira, although I'd be worried about Lowell being able to stay healthy.

Deep?  With Youkalis and Veritek in there?  And no Manny?  Nobody to protect Ortiz (who, IMHO, will be JUST fine this year...I think last year was about the injury, not him being "in decline")?  You're just too easy to pitch around, right now.  If you get Tex, you're in good shape.  Without him, you're going to have a problem because you have too many holes.   You guys, like the Yanks, need at least one more big bat...and Bay isn't big enough to be it.  I think you might need it even more than we do.  I wouldn't call the lineup deep.  Solid, maybe.  But if you lose Lowell, you're screwed.

As for the Yankee regulars bouncing back.  You can't exactly count on that.  Let's face it.  Jeter, Damon, and Posada aren't getting any younger and they all had down years last year (Posada and Damon dealt with injuries).

So did Jeter.  2 nasty hand injuries from being HIT, if you remember right.  Again, it's more likely they'll bounce back...because their career data says it's more likely.  You speculating it's not isn't objective reasoning, it's wishful thinking.  You might be right...but remember, we're talking about "on paper", here.  They won't start playing the games for a few more months, yet.

  Cano was so inconsistent he was benched towards the end of the season.  Melky Cabrera was so bad he was sent down to AAA.  Nady only hit .268 with the Yanks.  Nick Swisher hit .219 last year and is a career .244 hitter.  Really A-Rod is the only one who had a really good year at the plate. 

That's been Cano's story right along.  Hot and cold.  Melky...well, I don't know about Melky.  He's never been a great hitter, but the doldrums from last year were just awful.  I'm not even sure he's our CF next year.  I think Melky will likely be wearing a different uniform, so....I don't think he's really part of the discussion.  Nady can hit .270, .275, play his position, and we're just fine.  If he breaks out, or goes on a tear...that's bonus.  If we're "built" right, he doesn't need to be the big bat.  As I said, 1st base is really where our questions are at. 

As for A-rod...he had a solid year, but not a stellar one.

So, to revisit the point:  What do you think the odds are of ALL of them having repeat down years?  I'd peg that as "not so good".  Possible, but with baseball...I'd say unlikely.

So remind me again why I should be scared?

Uh, we were talking about the aquisitions they'd made...the pitching.  And I said "worried", I thnk.

But if you're in the AL East, and you're looking at the Yanks potential rotation and saying you're NOT scared....you're either lying to yourself or you're delusional.

But, just like nobody is really "scared" of the Sox lineup anymore, the Yanks need some retooling in that department.  But we need tinkering....for us, the pitching needed the biggest overhaul.  And we've certainly done it.  Now we need a couple outfielders, a 1st baseman, and at least one of them needs to be a big bat.  If we get that....we're loaded for bear (or Rays, or Sox, or whatever).  THAT'S when you should be scared.

[faldor]

Wait are you insinuating that Kevin Youkilis isn't a good offensive player?  You compared him to Jason Varitek.  You can't possibly put those 2 in the same sentence when speaking of offense.

I wholeheartedly admit the 8-9 spots in the order are weak with Varitek (if he's re-signed) and Lowrie/Lugo.  But 1-7 is solid and I don't see how you can pitch around anyone.  1) Ellsbury, 2) Pedroia, 3) Ortiz, 4) Lowell, 5) Drew, 6) Youkilis, 7) Bay.  And if they sign Tex, they'd try to trade Lowell and he'd hit cleanup.  Lowell is a very solid hitter, has been ever since he joined the Sox.  He's also great in the field.  The ONLY question with him, and it's a big one, is if he can stay healthy after last year.  I guess I should think he should bounce back and stay injury free since you don't seem to be worried about Damon, Posada, Matsui, Wang, Jeter, etc. recovering from injuries.  Let's face it pilferk, none of these guys are spring chickens (except for Wang).  It becomes tougher to bounce back from injuries and keep up the high level of play when you get deep into your career.  But if you have no concerns, I guess I shouldn't either.  So while I'd invite Tex with open arms, I'm fine if we stay put. 

And again, I do acknowledge the Yankees will be better this year.  As for breathing down our neck.  I felt they were breathing down our neck (and Tampa's although a little less with them) LAST year until late in the season.  I'd expect nothing less.  I have never said the Sox are worlds better than the Yanks and shouldn't even worry about them.  I'm simply saying I think they're a better team than the Yankees despite the additions.  Not sure how many different ways I can say that.

[pilferk]

Wait are you insinuating that Kevin Youkilis isn't a good offensive player?  You compared him to Jason Varitek.  You can't possibly put those 2 in the same sentence when speaking of offense.

I'm saying that, last year's .312 aside, the guy is about a .275 career hitter, who usually hits less than 20 HR's a year.  Good.  Solid.  Not scary.

I don't think Veritek is nearly as bad as his numbers were last year....he's a .250 to .260 hitter who had a bad year.  Whether that's a trend or not, I don't know.  He's had 2 out of 3 seasons hitting below .250....maybe it is.   But I don't think either of them really add much to your lineup.  There are plenty of their ilk, offensively, out there.

I wholeheartedly admit the 8-9 spots in the order are weak with Varitek (if he's re-signed) and Lowrie/Lugo.  But 1-7 is solid and I don't see how you can pitch around anyone.  1) Ellsbury, 2) Pedroia, 3) Ortiz, 4) Lowell, 5) Drew, 6) Youkilis, 7) Bay.

1) Ellsbury hit .280 last year, with an OBP in the .300's.  He hardly had a great "lead off hitter" type of year.  So the question is: which guy you gonna get?  He was certainly NOT the "wunderkind" of 2007.

2) Pedroia is the real deal, IMHO, and he's dangerous...but his lack of power means you pitch to him, and then pitch AROUND Ortiz, because there is no Manny behind him, or in front of him, to protect him.

3) Ortiz will, I think, be back...and nobody will pitch to him in the big spots unless they can find a big bat to hit behind him.

4) Lowell had a GREAT 2007, and a decent 2008.  But again..the guy is a career .275 hitter. who doesn't hit for much power.  He's certainly not scary...just solid.

5) Drew is your wildcard, like Matsui is ours.  If you get 2007 Drew, he's no threat.  If you get 2008 Drew (or the flashes he gave in 2008), he's a bit more dangerous.  But again...a career .275-ish hitter who doesn't hit for much power.

6) We talked about Youk, above.

7) Bay is a threat, but with the 6 and 8 around him...he's relatively easy to pitch around.

Again, I said they're a solid lineup.  I just wouldn't call them deep.  Deep would be your 9 hitter being a .275 with no power, and fielding 6 career .300 hitters, some of which hit for power.  You just don't have that.  There are some easy outs at the bottom, some moderate outs in the middle, and 3 guys who are really dangerous.  Maybe it's just me...but I don't call that deep.  Maybe it's just a semantic thing.

And if they sign Tex, they'd try to trade Lowell and he'd hit cleanup.  Lowell is a very solid hitter, has been ever since he joined the Sox.  He's also great in the field.  The ONLY question with him, and it's a big one, is if he can stay healthy after last year.

I think he'll be fine.  And I'd be shocked if they tried to trade Lowell.  First off...because they need his glove, which is decent.  Second, because I'm not sure there's much market for him anywhere but Boston.  Not unless Boston was willing to eat his contract.  I think it would be Youk who gets traded if Tex comes in.

  I guess I should think he should bounce back and stay injury free since you don't seem to be worried about Damon, Posada, Matsui, Wang, Jeter, etc. recovering from injuries.  Let's face it pilferk, none of these guys are spring chickens (except for Wang).  It becomes tougher to bounce back from injuries and keep up the high level of play when you get deep into your career.  But if you have no concerns, I guess I shouldn't either.  So while I'd invite Tex with open arms, I'm fine if we stay put. 

It's not that I don't have concerns, it's that we're not playing the games yet.  All I have to go by, right now, is what's on paper.  Every team faces injuries, pretty much every year.  I'm not going to sit here and try to be clairvoyant.  I mean...who would have predicted Wang's freak foot thing last year?    Or that Carl fucking Pavano would be pitching?

I do thnk it's likely that Damon, Matsui, Wang, and Jeter are OK...especially Wang and Jeter.    Matsui has been through the same injury, different leg, and came back better than he was before.  Damon....well, we'll see.  He's been remarkably durable...and he may just end up being a DH this year, which would drastically reduce his chance at injury.  DH will likely be EITHER Damon or Matsui (maybe they split the time), so one or the other shouldn't be much of a worry.  But I do expect there to be surprises on the way.

And again, I do acknowledge the Yankees will be better this year.  As for breathing down our neck.  I felt they were breathing down our neck (and Tampa's although a little less with them) LAST year until late in the season.  I'd expect nothing less.  I have never said the Sox are worlds better than the Yanks and shouldn't even worry about them.  I'm simply saying I think they're a better team than the Yankees despite the additions.  Not sure how many different ways I can say that.

Let me see:

You think they're better.  They were breathing down your neck last year  til late (because, honestly, of a ghastly 1st half and a ride with the injury bug).  So far, this off season, the Sox haven't done really anything to make themselves better or different than they were last year....but you're not worried?   Man, if the shoe was on  the other foot (and it has been), I know I'd be worried.

Sorry, I just don't get it.

[faldor]

pilferk, we could go back and forth till the end of time on this one.  Let's just accept that I will not back down that I think the Red Sox are better than the Yankees, and you think otherwise.  That's how it's supposed to be though.  I don't know why you expect me to come out and say that the Yanks are a better team.  I honestly don't believe that and I'm not just saying that for the fun of it.

A few notes

Report: Sox in Texas Hoping to Wrap Up Teixeira
The Buzz: The Latest on the Sox Trying to Close Teixeira

WCVB-TV Channel 5's Mike Lynch reported that Red Sox owner John Henry, team president Larry Lucchino, and GM Theo Epstein were in Texas tonight meeting with Teixeira's agent, Scott Boras, in an attempt to finish a deal for the free-agent first baseman. According to Lynch, who cited unnamed sources, the Sox were offering an eight-year, $184 million contract (average annual value is $23 million) and are hopeful they can wrap up a deal tonight.


And

The Boston Globe reports that "two general managers who were involved in the Mark Teixeira talks both felt the Red Sox had a leg up."

One general manager said that the Red Sox "have the highest offer on the table" and indicated that Boston's unwillingness to give Teixeira a 10-year contract won't be an issue because "no one's going there." The newspaper notes that the Red Sox don't really have a Plan B if Teixeira signs elsewhere, so they'd be left "with an offense pretty much like the one that ended the season." Of course, they scored the second-most runs in the league last season with 845, including 4.9 runs per game with Manny Ramirez and 5.8 runs per game after trading him.



Maybe the Red Sox offense really wasn't that bad without Manny protecting Ortiz after all?  Or was that all just smoke and mirrors?

And IF the Sox do sign Texeira, Lowell would be the one to go.  No way they'd trade Youkilis, in my opinion.  And why would they.  Lowell is nearing the end of his career and is an injury risk.  Granted Youk would net more in return, but there IS a market for Lowell and even if they have to eat part of his salary they'd be able to get something helpful in return.  No way they'd get equal value, but adding Tex and another piece would more than ease the pain.  Youk is a gold glove 1B, and a pretty darn good 3B, not gold glove caliber like Lowell but he's not that far off.