2008 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

Sox are about to be no-hit by John Lackey.  Unless I just jinxed him.

Earlier today I said the Angels didn't have a power hitting lineup, just a bunch of scrappy hitters.  Well now they've got a power hitting lineup mixed in with some scrappy hitters.  They are now the team to beat, if they weren't already.  They've got it all.  Pitching, defense, speed, intangibles, managing.  Scary team built for October.



Okay, so I jinxed him.  My appologies to the friends and family of John Lackey.  Angels continue to whip up on the Sox though.  Thank god tomorrow's the last time they play unless they meet in the playoffs.  Sox are almost looking like a team that NEEDS a change right now.  Not sure if the whole Manny saga has drained the team or what but if they hadn't played the hapless Mariners last week they'd be in some serious trouble right now.  4-7 since the break.  1-7 against teams not located in Seattle.  0-5 against the Halos.

At least you can say you're being whipped by a good team. Stupid yankees just lost 2 of 3 to the friggen O's. They'd have trouble beating themselves. We take 8 of 9 from 3 very good teams then lose 2 of 3 to the last place team? Pathetic. I'm getting tired of Cano too. He either hits everything in sight or couldn't hit a friggen beach ball. His play is so lackluster and undisciplined it makes me wanna puke. TAKE A FEW FUCKING PITCHES!

[pilferk]

At least you can say you're being whipped by a good team. Stupid yankees just lost 2 of 3 to the friggen O's. They'd have trouble beating themselves. We take 8 of 9 from 3 very good teams then lose 2 of 3 to the last place team? Pathetic. I'm getting tired of Cano too. He either hits everything in sight or couldn't hit a friggen beach ball. His play is so lackluster and undisciplined it makes me wanna puke. TAKE A FEW FUCKING PITCHES!

Having Betemit at 3rd didn't do them any favors last night, either.  TWICE he killed rallies by quickly getting down 0-2 and then striking out.

That HR off Mariano sure looms a heck of a lot larger than it did when it was hit in the TOP of the 9th....GRRR.

Now Minnesota is ahead of us in the wildcard.  Luckily, the Sox are getting beat up, too...but we should be taking advantage of that.

Frustrating.

[faldor]

At least you can say you're being whipped by a good team. Stupid yankees just lost 2 of 3 to the friggen O's. They'd have trouble beating themselves. We take 8 of 9 from 3 very good teams then lose 2 of 3 to the last place team? Pathetic. I'm getting tired of Cano too. He either hits everything in sight or couldn't hit a friggen beach ball. His play is so lackluster and undisciplined it makes me wanna puke. TAKE A FEW FUCKING PITCHES!

Having Betemit at 3rd didn't do them any favors last night, either.  TWICE he killed rallies by quickly getting down 0-2 and then striking out.

That HR off Mariano sure looms a heck of a lot larger than it did when it was hit in the TOP of the 9th....GRRR.

Now Minnesota is ahead of us in the wildcard.  Luckily, the Sox are getting beat up, too...but we should be taking advantage of that.

Frustrating.

Minnesota just lost Alexi Casilla for some time, possibly the season.  Not that he's a household name but he was having an unexpected solid season for the Twins at 2B and hitting second in the lineup.  Not saying that this will kill the Twins chances, but it doesn't help.  It may hurt my fantasy team more as I had to drop him today and pick up Aaron Miles, who doesn't match up statwise across the board.

[tim_m]

At least you can say you're being whipped by a good team. Stupid yankees just lost 2 of 3 to the friggen O's. They'd have trouble beating themselves. We take 8 of 9 from 3 very good teams then lose 2 of 3 to the last place team? Pathetic. I'm getting tired of Cano too. He either hits everything in sight or couldn't hit a friggen beach ball. His play is so lackluster and undisciplined it makes me wanna puke. TAKE A FEW FUCKING PITCHES!

Having Betemit at 3rd didn't do them any favors last night, either.  TWICE he killed rallies by quickly getting down 0-2 and then striking out.

That HR off Mariano sure looms a heck of a lot larger than it did when it was hit in the TOP of the 9th....GRRR.

Now Minnesota is ahead of us in the wildcard.  Luckily, the Sox are getting beat up, too...but we should be taking advantage of that.

Frustrating.

Yeah he doesn't give up a homer and we tie the game in the 9th. Its still frustrating watching Cano the last few games the guy can't hit anything again. He had the tying run on second and one out and promptly strikes out.

[cotis]

Yankees just traded Kyle Farnsworth to the Detroit Tigers for Pudge!

[tim_m]

Yankees just traded Kyle Farnsworth to the Detroit Tigers for Pudge!

Are you shitting me dude?

[D]

Pudge puts the Yanks over the top. The work he will do for the pitching staff alone! Now bring on Barry Bonds!

[faldor]

Pudge puts the Yanks over the top. The work he will do for the pitching staff alone! Now bring on Barry Bonds!

I wouldn't go that far.  Jose Molina is close to if not equal to Pudge defensively at this point.  Look at the Yankee pitchers ERA in games he's caught vs. Posada, it's not even close.  Pudge is still a good player, but not near what he used to be.  Although I do think it's a pretty good trade for both teams.  I was never sold on Farnsworth as a Yankee, even though he had pitched well of late.  He had a good run in Detroit a few years back, may pitch better under less scrutiny.  And as good as Jose Molina has done with the Yankee pitching staff, I don't think he is an every day catcher.  A Molina/Pudge tandem is more formidable. 

I still think the Angels are by far the best team in baseball though.  They should ease into the playoffs while the Yankees are gonna have to fight tooth and nail just to get there.

[tim_m]

Pudge puts the Yanks over the top. The work he will do for the pitching staff alone! Now bring on Barry Bonds!

I wouldn't go that far.  Jose Molina is close to if not equal to Pudge defensively at this point.  Look at the Yankee pitchers ERA in games he's caught vs. Posada, it's not even close.  Pudge is still a good player, but not near what he used to be.  Although I do think it's a pretty good trade for both teams.  I was never sold on Farnsworth as a Yankee, even though he had pitched well of late.  He had a good run in Detroit a few years back, may pitch better under less scrutiny.  And as good as Jose Molina has done with the Yankee pitching staff, I don't think he is an every day catcher.  A Molina/Pudge tandem is more formidable. 

I still think the Angels are by far the best team in baseball though.  They should ease into the playoffs while the Yankees are gonna have to fight tooth and nail just to get there.

For once i have to say i completely agree with everything you said. Is the world ending?    Seriously though i think its a good trade for both. We get a veteran catcher that can take some of the load off Molina and Pudge is better offensively. I'm not sorry to see Farnsworth go i always cringed when he entered a game. I feel much better with others like Veras or Robertson or another pitcher coming in in a tight game. Pudge may not be what he used to be but he is still a pretty damn good player and a good pickup and even if he becomes a free agent at seasons end we didn't give up much for him.

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

The Angels will fold like a tent come October.

When cotis posted that bit of news, I wasn't surprised.  If it involved any other team, I would have been.  But anything is possible with the Yankees.

Cashman is doing everything he can to save his job.

[faldor]

Possible Manny deal, TENTATIVELY reached.  3 way deal between the Marlins/Pirates/Sox.  Marlins would get Manny, Pirates would get Hermida and 2 prospects from Marlins, one from Sox, Sox would get Jason Bay and John Grabow.  We'll see what becomes of this, if anything.  As I've said before, it'd be hard to get anything close to equal value for Manny and while Bay is a nice player he's nowhere near the hitter Manny is.  Don't know much about Grabow, I've heard the name before but I'm guessing he's not the savior the bullpen has been looking for.  Then again, he CAN'T be worse than Gagne was last year.  Anyhow, Bay is a nice player, solid right handed hitter with some pop and some speed that can fill in LF.  This is about as good as the Sox could expect to get in return I'd say.  It really looks like they NEED a change right now.  They are in a major funk and Manny has made it clear he wants out.  Of course he's done this dozens of times before, but this time he just may get his wish.  We'll see what comes of this, if anything.  Manny's been nearly traded in years past, so I'll wait for the official word till I close the book on the Manny chapter in the Red Sox lore. 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/marlins/content/sports/epaper/2008/07/30/0730ramirez.html


Just to update, Gammons says the deal is NOT finalized or tentatively agreed upon because the Pirates are unhappy with their return in the deal.  Apparently the Sox or Marlins don't have the caliber of studs that the Yankees gave away for Marte/Nady.  Oh, NOW the Pirates start to worry about who they get in return?  Maybe they should've thought of that last weekend.

Gammons: Manny deal complicated
Wednesday, July 30, 2008 | Print Entry
Posted by Peter Gammons

As midnight approached Wednesday night on the East Coast, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez's waiving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office.
So, the complicated three-way deal might go down close to Thursday's 4 p.m. ET deadline. Ramirez wants out, and is willing to go to Florida. The Marlins want him -- and what he means to their pennant chances and pursuit of a new ballpark. The Red Sox clearly are willing to finance Ramirez's exit.
But the value of the young players was a sticking point late into the night, and one Red Sox official said, "This is anything but done."
The Nomar Garciaparra deal in 2004 went down to minutes before the deadline, and there was so much confusion the Twins never received the second prospect they thought they were owed. This might be Nomar Redux.

[freedom78]

If this goes through, I think it's a pretty good deal for Boston.  Bay is a good player.  Not a superstar, but his numbers are right there with Manny's.  Two MORE homers, only four fewer RBIs (he DOES play for Pittsburgh!), and his slugging is only .010 behind Manny.  Oh..and none of the drama, and at $14 million/year less. 

And Grabow has a 3.19 ERA over 53.2 innings.  Not shabby at all.

It always will SEEM like Boston's losing out, because of Manny's name, but this is a good deal for Boston. 

For Pittsburgh...not so much, as Hermida's a downgrade from Bay, though if they get the right prospects....

[tim_m]

The next 10 hrs until the deadline should be very interesting.

[faldor]

If this goes through, I think it's a pretty good deal for Boston.  Bay is a good player.  Not a superstar, but his numbers are right there with Manny's.  Two MORE homers, only four fewer RBIs (he DOES play for Pittsburgh!), and his slugging is only .010 behind Manny.  Oh..and none of the drama, and at $14 million/year less. 

And Grabow has a 3.19 ERA over 53.2 innings.  Not shabby at all.

It always will SEEM like Boston's losing out, because of Manny's name, but this is a good deal for Boston. 

For Pittsburgh...not so much, as Hermida's a downgrade from Bay, though if they get the right prospects....

Yeah I hear a lot of Sox fans saying how much they hate the deal.  Granted, I don't think the deal makes the Sox any better on paper.  But it might just be that the team is sick of all that comes with Manny being Manny.  That could explain their poor play of late.  I don't know that as a fact, but it's possible.  Sometimes a team just NEEDS a change, look at the Mets.  Let's face it, you're just not gonna get a hitter equal to Manny.  I doubt you can pull out Adam Dunn, and you're definitely not getting Matt Holliday.  Bay is a nice player.  Grabow has done pretty much nothing until this year so he could be a flash in the pan, or he could be having a career year and the Sox are hoping that continues down the stretch. 

I personally don't love the trade, but I'll take it at this point.  I'd personally rather work out a deal with the Dodgers centered around Matt Kemp, who is only 23.  Not quite the player Bay is right now but he's got loads of potential.  We'll see.  Still nothing official, but this does seem to have some legs. 

[pilferk]

If Manny goes to the NL, every AL manager is going to stand up at their desks, and do a happy dance.  Joe Girardi will likely send flowers, wine, candy, and whatever else he can think of (fruit baskets??!!) to the Red Sox front office.

I will personally raise a toast to the Red Sox front office if the deal goes through.....Manny KILLS us.  And if he goes to Florida, I''ll have to see him maybe once every 5 years (or possibly in the W.S., I guess).  That being said, I ain't celebrating til the deal gets done.  I fully expect Manny to continue to be Manny in beantown at 4:01 this afternoon.

And, FYI, Bay is a solid player.  But he's not Manny.  His numbers are similar, this year....but I don't think there is a player on the planet that is an "upgrade" from Manny at the plate in his position.  IMHO, the Sox, even if they get Bay, get WORSE when Manny goes.  He needs to go.  He should go.  But the Sox are going to have to hurt themselves to let him go, IMHO.  The question is: Will it hurt enough to take them out of contention.....

And on the Yanks/Pudge trade.....I must be one of the only Yanks fans to not be psyched about this trade.  I know Pudge is an all time great, but I just don't think he's the guy he was.  And the bullpen has been SOOOO good for the Yanks...I don't get why you break that up.  Farnsworth is, admittedly, one of those guys I cringe ever time he takes the mound...but not so much because of what he's done this year.  He's actually been pretty good this year.  I guess with Marte and Enwar Ramirez, you got a couple guys who can bridge that 7th or 8th (depending on what they decide...Veras in the 8th or 7th???), but I'm just not sure I'd want to part with Farnsworth for "rent-a-Pudge" this year.  I mean...C'mon...we all know, unless Posada's recovery from surgery goes completely awful and the guy can't throw again....Pudge isn't staying past this year.  He's a FA at the end of the season, in any event...and I can't think of a reason why the Yanks would sign him. 

They're certainly loaded for bear, NOW....

[pilferk]

And Griffey looks like he might join the White Sox.....

[faldor]

Pilferk, I don't think anyone could argue with you that the Sox cannot and will not get better by trading Manny.  Unfortunately, that's not the point here.  If they trade him it's because they feel they have to, not because it makes them better.  And while Manny is no longer a .320/40/130 guy.  Bay puts up #'s close to Manny now, but he is nowhere near the hitter Manny is.  Manny is still a feared hitter and makes everyone in the Sox lineup better.  Something that could not be said about Bay. 
The Sox have to decide if they can trust Manny to play all out the final 2 months of the season. If they feel he may coast (after all he did tell teammates he was gonna request to be placed on the DL before the Yanks seties).  If they're not sure if Manny is gonna want to play on certain days, rest his "injured" knee, and all his other Manny moments, is that realllly worth it? 
Manny's antics used to be laughed off.  But lately no one is laugjing.  The sign he made last night and flashed to the cameras from the dugout saying "I've been traded straight up for Brett Favre". I've got news for Manny, no Sox fan, player, or employee found that comical.

[pilferk]

Pilferk, I don't think anyone could argue with you that the Sox cannot and will not get better by trading Manny.  Unfortunately, that's not the point here.  If they trade him it's because they feel they have to, not because it makes them better.  And while Manny is no longer a .320/40/130 guy.  Bay puts up #'s close to Manny now, but he is nowhere near the hitter Manny is.  Manny is still a feared hitter and makes everyone in the Sox lineup better.  Something that could not be said about Bay. 

No, I 100% agree with you. That's why I'm so happy.  As a Yanks fan, ANYTHING the Red Sox "have to do" that makes them worse off than before is a good thing.

The Sox have to decide if they can trust Manny to play all out the final 2 months of the season. If they feel he may coast (after all he did tell teammates he was gonna request to be placed on the DL before the Yanks seties).  If they're not sure if Manny is gonna want to play on certain days, rest his "injured" knee, and all his other Manny moments, is that realllly worth it? 
Manny's antics used to be laughed off.  But lately no one is laugjing.  The sign he made last night and flashed to the cameras from the dugout saying "I've been traded straight up for Brett Favre". I've got news for Manny, no Sox fan, player, or employee found that comical.

I think we've gotten to the point that everyone, Manny, front office, fans, "haters"...EVERYONE...knows it's time for Manny to go.  I think it's less about trust (they don't, won't, and can't...that's the point) and more about what they can live with letting him go for.   Even if they don't "trust" Manny, Manny at 75% is better than 90% of the hitters in baseball.  I think it comes down to whether they can convince another team (or teams) to give them something that at least won't completely take them out of contention for Manny.  And they don't have much time to find it....which might be what kills the deal (as it has so many other Manny deals), ultimately.

IF Manny has to stay, it's going to be a very frigid relationship...with his teammates, his coaches, the front office, AND the fans (I think).  Him staying might be only marginally better (and maybe, ultimately, a LOT worse) than if they just let him go for a couple of sets of numbers from somebody's minor league bench. 

It'll be interesting.

On another note: I remember last year's trade deadline as sort of being anti-climactic.  No real big "wow" deals leading up to the deadline.  THIS year...it's like every hour or so there's some new deal going down......Everyone seems to be scrambling to shore up and make a run, and those out of it seem to be selling like there's a fire sale.

[Sober_times]

As a sox fan I have laughed at Manny over the years. He has pissed me off over the years. I have wanted the fucker out of Boston at some points over the years. However saying that with all his griping the last few years and this year griping a little more I have no doubt that Manny will perform at or above the level he has been playing this season.

In seasons past he has griped and complained. Demanded trades yet always went back to playing baseball at a high level when the time came. Even though he has been being a bitch latley, I still think if he's not traded he will perform well. And if he is traded I know part of me will miss manny being manny. 

[cotis]

Manny's a Dodger, Griffey Jr. is on the White Sox, and Jason Bay is on the Red Sox. Sums up today I would think?