2008 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[russkwtx]

^In fact, after the historic collapse last year, they should have fired him in the offseason and started fresh this year.

And to the Griffey/Thomas debate: Griffey by far was the better hitter in his prime and would have been approaching 700 or more homers if not for injuries. One can't say the same about Thomas.

I think you're forgetting exactly how dominant a hitter The Big Hurt was in his time.  He's had his fair share of injuries over the years too, which have brought his numbers down.  According to www.espn.com the following are their seasonal averages for their respective careers.

Griffey - BA .289 - HR 40 - RBI 115 - R 104 - H 173 - 2B 32 - BB 80 - SO 108 - OBP .373 - SLG .549 - OPS .922
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2148
Thomas BA .302 - HR 37 - RBI 120 - R 105 - H 173 - 2B 35 - BB 117 - SO 97 - OBP .420 - SLG .558 - OPS .978
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

You can't get much closer than that.  Obviously Griffey was the better overall player but Thomas was every bit the hitter that Griffey was.  The numbers don't lie.

Interesting stats. What is the time period? And is it the same time period for both players, or only their peak years?

[faldor]

^In fact, after the historic collapse last year, they should have fired him in the offseason and started fresh this year.

And to the Griffey/Thomas debate: Griffey by far was the better hitter in his prime and would have been approaching 700 or more homers if not for injuries. One can't say the same about Thomas.

I think you're forgetting exactly how dominant a hitter The Big Hurt was in his time.  He's had his fair share of injuries over the years too, which have brought his numbers down.  According to www.espn.com the following are their seasonal averages for their respective careers.

Griffey - BA .289 - HR 40 - RBI 115 - R 104 - H 173 - 2B 32 - BB 80 - SO 108 - OBP .373 - SLG .549 - OPS .922
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2148
Thomas BA .302 - HR 37 - RBI 120 - R 105 - H 173 - 2B 35 - BB 117 - SO 97 - OBP .420 - SLG .558 - OPS .978
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

You can't get much closer than that.  Obviously Griffey was the better overall player but Thomas was every bit the hitter that Griffey was.  The numbers don't lie.

Interesting stats. What is the time period? And is it the same time period for both players, or only their peak years?

That's their average stats for their entire careers based on a 162 game season.

[pilferk]

Have fun i wish i were able to get back to NY this year for a game in the final year of the stadium.

It was a GREAT game, IMHO.

Watching Joba practically dominate was awesome...one tough inning (the 2nd) really, and he cruised the rest of the way.  Watching him block the plate in the 2nd was unreal.....I've NEVER seen a major league pitcher do that before.

While I would have liked to see a bit more offense from the Yanks, you got the sense pretty early that this was going to be a pitchers duel.  They Yanks must have sensed it too because they were VERY aggressive on the base paths...Melkly stealing 3rd got a HUGE reaction from the crowd.

But nothing...not the go ahead RBI single from Arod, the plate block from Joba, or Melky stealing 3rd...NOTHING compared to the energy that went through the crowd when "Enter Sandman" started playing....and Mo started his trot from the bullpen.  His strike out of that last batter came pretty close, though.

Great game, great weather for it...a perfect day at the ballpark.

[pilferk]

^
Those are the Stats I looked at. He bested Griffey in almost every batting statistical category (except HR's). BUT... Griffey did lose a much larger chunk of his career to injuries and because of that had many shortened seasons that included time coming off of injuries which really hurts timing. Timing after all is one of the most important factors in hitting. I think if you take a snap shot of 1990-2000 the numbers are closer in most categories, with Griffey holding a wider HR margin.

But a career is a career and the way they shook out, Big Hurt was the better "overall" hitter.

Exactly.

We're not talking about who had the most potential, here.

We're talking about who actually was the better hitter. 

[Thorned Rose]

well when you factor in those low ass season stats for the hobbled years he was injured, he gives it up to Thomas barley...

So Thomas, is the better bitter I would say.

If you go up until 2001, it's Griffey, but the fact stands as Thomas I guess... even though it took him 20 years to hit 500 lmao

[tim_m]

Have fun i wish i were able to get back to NY this year for a game in the final year of the stadium.

It was a GREAT game, IMHO.

Watching Joba practically dominate was awesome...one tough inning (the 2nd) really, and he cruised the rest of the way.  Watching him block the plate in the 2nd was unreal.....I've NEVER seen a major league pitcher do that before.

While I would have liked to see a bit more offense from the Yanks, you got the sense pretty early that this was going to be a pitchers duel.  They Yanks must have sensed it too because they were VERY aggressive on the base paths...Melkly stealing 3rd got a HUGE reaction from the crowd.

But nothing...not the go ahead RBI single from Arod, the plate block from Joba, or Melky stealing 3rd...NOTHING compared to the energy that went through the crowd when "Enter Sandman" started playing....and Mo started his trot from the bullpen.  His strike out of that last batter came pretty close, though.

Great game, great weather for it...a perfect day at the ballpark.

Glad you got to see a great game for your last one at the old stadium. Joba was absolutely great from what i heard. I found it amusing Girardi signaled to the pen before even getting to the mound so Joba couldn't talk him out of removing him. I wish he had let him finish that inning though to get the win.

[faldor]

well when you factor in those low ass season stats for the hobbled years he was injured, he gives it up to Thomas barley...

So Thomas, is the better bitter I would say.

If you go up until 2001, it's Griffey, but the fact stands as Thomas I guess... even though it took him 20 years to hit 500 lmao

Again, Frank had his own share of injuries to deal with.  He's obviously not the most well conditioned athlete to ever play the game.  He played only 30 games in 2001, 74 in 2004, and 34 in 2005.  Pretty much equal to Griffey's lost years from 2002-2004.  Each had 3 LOST years per se, and if you match their career numbers they're about as close as you can get.

[D]

Griffey JR is a much better player than Thomas


Check the GOLD GLOVES

Defense still counts in baseball.

so best hitter, yeah i could see goin with Big Frank. Id love to see the onbase, slugging and OBS though.

Griffey the better all around player. Thomas maybe the better hitter

Good debate though.

[faldor]

Griffey JR is a much better player than Thomas


Check the GOLD GLOVES

Defense still counts in baseball.

so best hitter, yeah i could see goin with Big Frank. Id love to see the onbase, slugging and OBS though.

Griffey the better all around player. Thomas maybe the better hitter

Good debate though.

The overall better player was never a question.  Their average career stats were posted earlier and they were about as close as you can get with a slight advantage to The Big Hurt.  Thomas has a higher OBP by far, SLG, and thus OPS.

Griffey - BA .289 - HR 40 - RBI 115 - R 104 - H 173 - 2B 32 - BB 80 - SO 108 - OBP .373 - SLG .549 - OPS .922
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2148
Thomas BA .302 - HR 37 - RBI 120 - R 105 - H 173 - 2B 35 - BB 117 - SO 97 - OBP .420 - SLG .558 - OPS .978
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=2370

[freedom78]

The Cubs are 32-8 (.800) at home this year. 

[AxlsMainMan]

How about those Jays last night?!?!?

14-1 over the Reds.

Welcome back Cito!

[MR.BROWNSTONE]

Major League Baseball All-Star Game rosters came out today.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AnFNp3EJb6TxfaNzrxAvKewRvLYF?slug=ys-allstarrosters070608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

What are your thoughts on the rosters? Think some other player should be on it? 

[Jim Bob]

Who woulda thought as we approach the All-Star break the team with the best record would be Tampa Bay 

As much as I hate the Cubs, seeing a Chicago/Chicago WS would be out of this world.

[tim_m]

I don't think even the best baseball experts could have predicted Tampa Bay owning the best record at the break.

[faldor]

Yeah the Rays certainly seem to be for real, with the Yanks and Sox taking a backseat in the AL East for the moment.  It appears they will be in this thing for the long haul, but it is a long season.  They do have a very good and balanced offense and one of the top rotations in the AL.  Their bullpen has been very good so far with a bunch of young arms and Troy Percival at the back end.  He's gone on the DL twice in the last month or so though so who knows how long he can hold up.  Neither injury was all that serious, but still, the guy is old.  The only question is how the young guys will perform down the stretch when the games get a little more important.  Do they get tight?  Do they know what it takes to win in September when a team starts to creep up on them?  And a lot of their guys aren't accustomed to playing a full major league season, we'll see if they hit the preverbial wall.

With all that being said, both the Yankees and Red Sox have their fair share of questions as well.  The Yanks rotation is below average.  Their bullpen is spotty with the exception of the immortal Rivera.  Their lineup isn't as strong as was expected, still dangerous though.  They've had lots of injuries to both young and old players.  The Sox rotation is pretty strong but their bullpen has been REAL shaky for a majority of the season.  Okajima isn't nearly as effective as he was last year.  Even Papelbon hasn't been as dominant.  The rest of their guys have been either highly inconsistent or highly ineffective.  Although J.D. Drew, Lowell, and Pedroia have stepped it up with Ortiz out they're really beginning to miss his bat.  Varitek, Manny, and Ellsbury have struggled mightily.  Will Ortiz be able to come back full strength?

Should be an interesting race in the AL East in the second half.

[freedom78]

Who woulda thought as we approach the All-Star break the team with the best record would be Tampa Bay 

As much as I hate the Cubs, seeing a Chicago/Chicago WS would be out of this world.

That would be a very intense series.

[tim_m]

I'm more concerned about the yankees offense or lack of offense. The rotation hasn't been that bad really considering all the injuries. Pettitte has been good and so has Moose. Chamberlain has only had one really so so start against the rangers. He pitched good last night. I mean the guy gave up 3 runs on a passed ball and soft excuse me single to right. Rasner's last start was good too he just got no support. I don't know about Ponson long term though.

[faldor]

I'm more concerned about the yankees offense or lack of offense. The rotation hasn't been that bad really considering all the injuries. Pettitte has been good and so has Moose. Chamberlain has only had one really so so start against the rangers. He pitched good last night. I mean the guy gave up 3 runs on a passed ball and soft excuse me single to right. Rasner's last start was good too he just got no support. I don't know about Ponson long term though.

Pettitte, Joba, and Moose are all pitching well or CAN pitch well.  Rasner and Ponson don't scare me one bit though as a Sox fan.  Maybe they can shut down poor offensive teams or throw an occasional solid game here and there.  But they're not striking fear into the AL, even as #4 and 5 starters.  As bad as Hughes and Kennedy were before they got hurt, they have a higher ceiling.  But they were BAD!  You can live with not so great 4 and 5 starters if the Yankee offense was hitting full stride.  But that hasn't been the case.  If they could avoid injuries and the regulars stay healthy all at once maybe that could change things, hasn't happened yet though.

Sox are seriously missing Ortiz's bat right now.  They're still scoring around the same amount of runs but ESPN threw up an interesting graphic during last nights game showcasing how much worse they were in close game since David went down.  They can still pile up runs against bad pitching, but the lineup is a lot less imposing in the late innings.  Scored one run tonight which was amazingly enough to win.  Rays finally lost a game.  Both teams picked up some ground.

[tim_m]

I'm more concerned about the yankees offense or lack of offense. The rotation hasn't been that bad really considering all the injuries. Pettitte has been good and so has Moose. Chamberlain has only had one really so so start against the rangers. He pitched good last night. I mean the guy gave up 3 runs on a passed ball and soft excuse me single to right. Rasner's last start was good too he just got no support. I don't know about Ponson long term though.

Pettitte, Joba, and Moose are all pitching well or CAN pitch well.  Rasner and Ponson don't scare me one bit though as a Sox fan.  Maybe they can shut down poor offensive teams or throw an occasional solid game here and there.  But they're not striking fear into the AL, even as #4 and 5 starters.  As bad as Hughes and Kennedy were before they got hurt, they have a higher ceiling.  But they were BAD!  You can live with not so great 4 and 5 starters if the Yankee offense was hitting full stride.  But that hasn't been the case.  If they could avoid injuries and the regulars stay healthy all at once maybe that could change things, hasn't happened yet though.

Sox are seriously missing Ortiz's bat right now.  They're still scoring around the same amount of runs but ESPN threw up an interesting graphic during last nights game showcasing how much worse they were in close game since David went down.  They can still pile up runs against bad pitching, but the lineup is a lot less imposing in the late innings.  Scored one run tonight which was amazingly enough to win.  Rays finally lost a game.  Both teams picked up some ground.

I agree Hughes and Kennedy have a much higher ceiling and will be better then Rasner and Ponson. I think realistically they just were not ready to handle the pressure put on them. I know some people are just tearing those two apart but they are 21-22 yr old kids who have barely played triple A at all. They still need to learn to pitch in the majors. They were trying to be too perfect and not trusting their stuff and got hammered. You see it with Joba too but his stuff can be so overpowering he can usually get away with it. But yeah that offense has to get going when you only score 2-3 runs a game you aren't gonna win much at all

Not having Ortiz is absolutely killing the sox and having Manny in such a horrible slump isn't helping either. When he struck out on 3 pitches against Rivera i was SHOCKED he didn't even waive the bat at the ball. You obviously can't take anything away from the great Rivera for making 3 great pitches but thats NOT Manny at all.

[faldor]

Yeah that was a pretty poor at bat for Manny.  I think he half expected to be walked or pitched around at least.  And it appeared they wanted to come up and in on the first pitch but it wasn't that far up or in and was good for strike one.  Then he went outside with strike 2.  Then maybe Manny expected Rivera to waste one on 0-2, but he went right back and painted the outside corner.  Rivera is ridiculous.  Age doesn't seem like it's ever gonna catch up with him.  I still don't understand how he's SO effective with ONE pitch, but I think I'll give up trying to comprehend that.  Anyhow, Manny came up with a big hit last night so maybe he'll start to turn a corner.  He's been a streaky hitter through his career, especially in the last few years.  He'll start ripping the ball again, it's just a matter of time.  But recently he's been hitting like Julio Lugo.