2008 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[pilferk]

1) what's your source? cause you are saying it like you know for a fact.

the trainer for the Philadelphia Flyers says only medical doctors can give injections in the ass cause there are major risks involved. every team he knows of does not allow it. he also said it's not part of their training.

my cousin has asked a number of professional athletes the same question, and WIP in philly has had several athletes on this week that have said athletic trainers do not give those type of injections. some even suggested it's illegal in certain states.

1) The source is a) I have a more than passing familiarity with medical law, considering it's a good sized portion of my work load.  I mean, I'm no expert, but this one is a simple one.  And, to be sure, I asked members of our medical staff who work 3 to 10 feet from my desk.  Ivy league affiliated institution, FYI. and b) I have friends who are actually trainers in semi-pro and pro sports (well, one pro sport), mostly made when I was working at a sports/entertainment venue.  In the interest of full disclosure, none of them work in baseball....most in hockey, one in basketball.

It is not illegal for anyone to give a person injections, with their permission, depending on what's being injected.  At least not in CT, or the surrounding states.  B12...certainly not illegal. Perscribed lidocaine?  Also not illegal, though I can't think of any reason why someone would inject it in their ass, anyway.  Also not illegal to inject things like insulin, infertility drugs, and other more routine drugs or supplements.  Some people can NOT inject themselves and have friends or family members do it for them.   Now, most of those injections wouldn't be in the ass...but no one I've talked to seems to think the site would matter.  What matters is the person giving them permission.

A controlled substance like steroids? Or morphine based pain management? Yes, you're absolutely correct....it would be illegal for anyone other than a doctor, nurse, or the patient themselves (under doctors orders) to inject it.  I'm sure it still happens.....we see patients have friends and family members give them their shots all the time...but TECHNICALLY it's not supposed to.

Largely, the role personal trainers for pro athletes take on can be like that....doing the injection FOR the person because they are either not comfortable doing it or simply aren't capable.

Now, you brought up the case of a TEAM'S employed trainer doing the same thing.  They likely wouldn't...because the team wouldn't want to accept the liability of doing it.  Because there IS potential liability.  Something the personal trainer could also face, but might not be as uncomfortable with.  All the contacts I have say the same thing:  We can't do it, but some (edit: changed "many" to "some" because I think that's a more accurate "gist" of what I was told) of the guys on our teams have their own "guys", and their "guys" (who are all payed as personal trainers) do it for them.

That's why I asked about McNamee being on a team payroll.

Edit: When I said it was "untrue", to be clear, I meant it was untrue that it was "unheard of".  It's probably not the norm...but some people have issues with needles, blood, or both.  And there are certainly athletes taking injection drugs that have someone else stick the needle in and push the plunger down....or at least, I'm told there are. 

Oh, and I agree: It's DEFINITELY not part of their training.  And while I will give you that giving a shot is not quite as easy as I make out, above, it IS something that can be shown to someone in about 10 or 15 minutes time by a doctor or nurse.

[sandman]

but all professional athletes have team rules to follow. and every team has medical doctors available to give injections, why would a team allow an AT give injections when there are obviously risks involved?

have your friends given injections to pro athletes? and if so, are they employed by the team?

and you are also talking about two different things....personal trainers are different from athletic trainers.

[pilferk]

but all professional athletes have team rules to follow. and every team has medical doctors available to give injections, why would a team allow an AT give injections when there are obviously risks involved?

have your friends given injections to pro athletes? and if so, are they employed by the team?

and you are also talking about two different things....personal trainers are different from athletic trainers.

The medical staff for a team are usually around to dose out controlled substances and some perscriptions.  They would not be giving injections (off season or on) of personal "stuff" like B-12, insulin, infertility drugs, etc.  The lidocaine.....probably so.  Not having read a teams specific rules, I can only say that no one has ever told me there is a rule in place about who can, and cannot, inject a player with a supplement or patient controlled substance (like insulin or infertility drugs).  Do you know, for a fact, there are such rules out there?

I understand there are risks, and the team wants to minimize them, but there are risks in taking ANY medication for a pro athlete.  Even something as simple as asprin (because it's an anticoagulant).

My friends? No, they're employed by the teams, not the athletes.  They'd get fired for doing it because they'd expose the team to liability. But they've seen or heard athletes "use" the services of their personal trainer to do it.

Because we're talking about 2 different things here.  You're using statements from athletic trainers to back up your assertion "also, i've heard from a few VERY reliable people that said it is unheard of to have a personal trainer inject a professional athlete with anything".  McNamee isn't an athletic trainer....or wasn't ONLY one.  He was Clemens PERSONAL trainer, too.  Again, that's why I asked the question...because I'm unclear which role he thinks he was performing under when injecting Clemens.  And yes, it matters.

[sandman]

i don't know the specific rules teams have. but when under contract, there are rules. and teams take every precaution available to protect their assets (which includes the medical health of their players).

mcnamee was employed the blue jays in 1998, and the yankees in 2000.

[pilferk]

i don't know the specific rules teams have. but when under contract, there are rules. and teams take every precaution available to protect their assets (which includes the medical health of their players).

mcnamee was employed the blue jays in 1998, and the yankees in 2000.

So, you don't know.  Neither do I.  But given the secondary info going around, and the fact there's been NO mention of one anywhere, it sure doesn't seem like there is a specific rule about "injectables".  By all means, if you find out the specifics of one, let me know.  But I'm not going to speculate there is one without more concrete information.

McNamee's employement is interesting, because it speaks to which "master" was he serving under when injecting Clemens.  Even with Clemens permission, he'd have been violating his (McNamee's) terms of employement by injecting Clemens with anything.  That to me, seems to indicate he wouldn't inject anything "legal"......he'd suggest Clemens get someone else to do it since if HE (McNamee) did it he'd be risking his job.  Seem logical?

So either he was risking his job to help out a friend (and given his propensity for looking out for number one, I find that a dicey assertion....this is the guy who distrusted Clemens and kept biohazard material for years) or he was doing something "behind the teams back" that they (Clemens and McNamee) didn't want anyone to know about.  I find the second scenario more likely.

That's really the first compelling, logical thing I've seen to implicate Clemens which is completely irrespective of the character "factor".  Not enough for me to convict Roger...but certainly something more concrete than the scumbag's word.

[The Dog]

Prank on Phillies pitcher.  this is really funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nKKqPOiJxI

[freedom78]

Prank on Phillies pitcher.  this is really funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nKKqPOiJxI

That's a pretty good prank.  He got the manager, the gm, the media, the team...tough to top that.

[sandman]

Report: Man has photo of Clemens at disputed Canseco party

The 1998 party at Jose Canseco's house in Miami may have started out as a gathering of friends and family. It has turned into an event worthy of congressional testimony and a source of "evidence."

There is a photo of Roger Clemens at Canseco's house during the June 1998 party, according to the New York Daily News -- a photo that would contradict Clemens' sworn testimony that he never attended the party.


Richard Emery, one of the lawyers for Clemens' former trainer, Brian McNamee, said he was aware of the existence of the photo. "We have reason to believe it's reliable evidence," Emery told the Daily News. "We believe there's photographic evidence that shows Clemens was at a party he says he wasn't at."

The event is a key point in the steroids investigation involving Clemens. It is mentioned in the Mitchell report, and was a focal point during the Feb. 13 hearing before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.

In the Mitchell report, Brian McNamee, Clemens' former trainer, said he witnessed Canseco, Clemens and a third, unidentified person talking together, but did not overhear the conversation. McNamee said that some time after the party, "Clemens approached [him] and, for the first time, brought up the subject of using steroids," according to the report.

The crux of the issue is whether Clemens was present at the party, which was hosted by Canseco for his Toronto Blue Jays teammates and their families while they were in town for a series against the Florida Marlins.

Clemens has repeatedly denied being at Canseco's house for that event. But a young man has a photo of Clemens at the party, according to the Daily News. The man was just 11 years old at the time of the party, taking photos of various baseball players in attendance.

McNamee has testified that he clearly recalls Clemens, his wife, nanny and children at Canseco's party, including describing the nanny as wearing a peach bikini and board shorts.

Clemens' lawyer, Rusty Hardin, has said he turned over evidence to congressional lawyers, including an affidavit from Canseco, proving Clemens didn't attend Canseco's party.

The House committee is still debating on the next step regarding the steroids investigation. Sources have told the Daily News that they expect the committee to refer the entire matter, not just the Clemens investigation, to the Justice Department.

"We haven't heard anything one way or the other," Hardin told the Daily News.

[tim_m]

Notes: Rookies adopt workout plan
02/26/2008 4:30 PM ET
By Bryan Hoch / MLB.com

TAMPA, Fla. -- His conditioning complete for the day, Ian Kennedy needed a few minutes. He didn't necessarily have to catch his breath, but really, he just wanted to stop dripping all over the clubhouse carpet.

It wasn't the prettiest sight, but heavy afternoon perspiration is the trade-off for morning workouts with Andy Pettitte. Ever since the Yankees' young pitchers began following a grueling exercise program, suffice it to say the staff has been challenged to keep dry towels on hand.

"My body feels really good -- my legs feel fresh," Kennedy said on Tuesday. "By the time I go out there to run again, I already feel like I haven't done anything all day. I noticed when I'm done working out, I'll be sweating a lot, but I won't be fatigued."

The 8 a.m. ET start times may be new to some of the younger players in camp, but it's certainly familiar territory around Legends Field. The outline is the same one Pettitte gleaned from Roger Clemens years ago, when the left-hander began his transformation into more of a power pitcher.

At first, Pettitte offered introductions to only the Yankees' "Big Three" prospects, inviting Kennedy, Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain along for a trial. The workouts open by running a seven-minute mile, then move for about a half-hour targeting abdominal work, a mountain climber and other exercises.

It's not for everyone, especially at first.

"I just started doing it because Andy invited us," said Kennedy, a self-admitted morning hater. "Then it started feeling good."

Once word of the benefits got out -- namely, being able to keep up and lead the pack in an already cardio-intensive camp -- Pettitte soon found himself setting the schedule for numerous other players as well.

"Hey, if you want to invite them too, go ahead," Pettitte told the trio. "The more guys we have, the better."

Veteran LaTroy Hawkins is among the group of hurlers who have checked in on the workouts, as well as Alan Horne and Jeff Karstens.

Kennedy has already dropped some body fat thanks to Pettitte's program. In a camp where he has also been tutored by Mike Mussina, the 23-year-old has found Spring Training productive -- even before throwing one exhibition pitch.

"It means a lot to me that they spend time and share some things," Kennedy said. "As a young guy watching these guys play, it's kind of like a dream come true. Most people wish they could work out just one day with Andy Pettitte."

This can be nothing but good for the yankeees and hopefully bad news for the hitters around the league

[freedom78]

Random question, but is anyone who posts in this thread lucky enough to have season tix for their favorite club?

[tim_m]

I wish i was especially with it being the last season for the original yankee stadium, unfortunately i live over 2000 miles away.

[freedom78]

I wish i was especially with it being the last season for the original yankee stadium, unfortunately i live over 2000 miles away.

Subway doesn't go that far? 

Yeah, that would be cool, though.  Some summer, I wanna rent a place in Wrigleyville, buy someone's season tix on eBay or whatever, and go every damned day. 

After that, I'm sure I'll need a new liver.

[tim_m]

I wish i was especially with it being the last season for the original yankee stadium, unfortunately i live over 2000 miles away.

Subway doesn't go that far? 

Yeah, that would be cool, though.  Some summer, I wanna rent a place in Wrigleyville, buy someone's season tix on eBay or whatever, and go every damned day. 

After that, I'm sure I'll need a new liver.

Haha no  . I was at the stadium many times as a kid. It would be nice to get to say goodbye to it. That would be cool. I would love to get to see old legendary stadium like Wrigley.

[pilferk]

I'll be saying my goodbyes to The Stadium on June 19th at the Padres game.....

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

I'll be saying my goodbyes to The Stadium on June 19th at the Padres game.....

I'm making my pilgrimage over the summer to pay my respects.

[pilferk]

I'll be saying my goodbyes to The Stadium on June 19th at the Padres game.....

I'm making my pilgrimage over the summer to pay my respects.

Got my tix, today.

Main Reserved, Row E.

Not too bad.

Opening day is already sold out (probably was on the "lottery").

Trying for 4 tix for a game against Cleveland in July.....I really want to bring the kids to THIS stadium once before they close it.  They've never been.

[tim_m]

I'll be saying my goodbyes to The Stadium on June 19th at the Padres game.....

I'm making my pilgrimage over the summer to pay my respects.

Got my tix, today.

Main Reserved, Row E.

Not too bad.

Opening day is already sold out (probably was on the "lottery").

Trying for 4 tix for a game against Cleveland in July.....I really want to bring the kids to THIS stadium once before they close it.  They've never been.

Good luck getting the tix. That would be a great thrill for them to see before it closes. I'm glad i got to go many times as a kid.

[sandman]

Random question, but is anyone who posts in this thread lucky enough to have season tix for their favorite club?

i used to have season tix for the phils the first couple seasons in CBP. i gave them up cause it's too much of a committment, and too much of a hassle trying to get rid of games i can't make.

not to mention it's easy to get tix for most games. even the tough ones (Red Sox, opening day this year) are only a little bit more on ebay.

i don't go to many games anymore - sort of my own little protest against the phils cheap-ass owners.   

[russkwtx]

I can't believe Clemens could be so arrogant, or stupid(?) to lie to before a congressional hearing. I wanted to believe Roger and he is one of the all time greats. He should have just done the Pettite thing and admitted to occasional use, and we would be done. But now he has the FBI opening a case on him, and note there is not a case opened on McNamee, so the chances are that Clemens is in big trouble. If they go after Bonds for perjury, they have to do the same for Clemens, and that means two of the biggest names in MLB face potential jail time.
Such a sad commentary on baseball, which is why I have switched my allegiance to the NFL, although there are big problems there also (spygate, give me a break, like Obama says, we have entered the "silly season.")

[western_chaos]

I can't believe Clemens could be so arrogant, or stupid(?) to lie to before a congressional hearing. I wanted to believe Roger and he is one of the all time greats. He should have just done the Pettite thing and admitted to occasional use, and we would be done. But now he has the FBI opening a case on him, and note there is not a case opened on McNamee, so the chances are that Clemens is in big trouble. If they go after Bonds for perjury, they have to do the same for Clemens, and that means two of the biggest names in MLB face potential jail time.
Such a sad commentary on baseball, which is why I have switched my allegiance to the NFL, although there are big problems there also (spygate, give me a break, like Obama says, we have entered the "silly season.")

Yes, I am writing my essay on this in school about clemens vs. pettite. My researched argument will be on something of that nature. Interesting thing one article said was that pettite even apologized when he felt he gave a bad answer to a question but clemens would never apologize.

But, I am excited for the season to begin.