2008 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Axl4Prez2004]

Gypsy, you have to admit, things are not looking good for Clemens.

I really don't think it matters.  These hearings proved nothing.  Plus they contributed ZERO to addressing the issue of steroid/HGH use in baseball/sports.

They can't prove Roger used.  Roger will never admit it if he did.

I do think that Andy did say what he believed to be the truth.  My only question would be that why, when Andy first came forward (after he was named in the Mitchell report), did he NOT mention his own 2004 use when he was admitting to the other times he used?  Why leave that out if you're coming clean?

Gypsy, I believe he held back partly due to shame.  That's just my best guess.  I don't think anybody is questioning his credibility now...although some might since it took him filing this federal affidavit to get the full truth.  I'm sure as was previously mentioned, the possibility of perjury crossed his mind.   But, I think it was his conscience that won out, and I am happy for him.  Yes, it may destroy his friendship with Roger, but the truth really will set him free.   

[faldor]

I don't know about you guys (or gals), but I am tired of this. Even if Roger used, and it is an open question that probably will never be solved, it was before it was illegal. That does not make it right, but I am saying let's move on. I want the government out of sports. What is the point of a witch hunt? I say, ok, it happened. Bad. But why prosecute now? Just test the hell out of everyone and if they are using suspend or ban them. But this government intervention is tiresome. We have it in baseball, and now that asshole Spector, who can barely put a coherent sentence together, wants to investigate the Pats and the NFL commissioner. Give me a break, what is next? A govt commission to oversee trades and salaries? Let sports be sports. 

I think you're mistaken.  Steroids were never "legal".  HGH was never "legal".  They just didn't have a rigorous testing system for steroids and none for HGH, that doesn't make them "legal".  I agree about the gov't staying out of sports.  They love this stuff.  I love how one of the guys tried to say how they don't like getting all the media attention, then went on to hammer away at McNamee like he was auditioning for a lawyer role in a movie.  I agree not much came out of this.  It's all a matter of who the public believes is telling the truth, and I think the public overwhelmingly thinks Clemens is guilty.  I thought he was guilty from day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change my mind.  It hasn't been proven yet, and it will be difficult to get to that point, but all the evidence seems to be against him.

Really the only thing going against McNamee is his questionable reputation.  To that I say, "the man was a drug dealer, what do you expect?  A scholarly gentlemen?"  They tried to hammer away at the "lies" he told in the investigation.  That's what drug dealers do when they get caught.  They lie.  Big surprise there.  He's really got no reason to lie anymore, especially since Pettitte, Knoblauch, etc.'s testimony backs him up.

[tim_m]

Gypsy, you have to admit, things are not looking good for Clemens.

I really don't think it matters.  These hearings proved nothing.  Plus they contributed ZERO to addressing the issue of steroid/HGH use in baseball/sports.

They can't prove Roger used.  Roger will never admit it if he did.

I do think that Andy did say what he believed to be the truth.  My only question would be that why, when Andy first came forward (after he was named in the Mitchell report), did he NOT mention his own 2004 use when he was admitting to the other times he used?  Why leave that out if you're coming clean?

Gypsy, I believe he held back partly due to shame.  That's just my best guess.  I don't think anybody is questioning his credibility now...although some might since it took him filing this federal affidavit to get the full truth.  I'm sure as was previously mentioned, the possibility of perjury crossed his mind.   But, I think it was his conscience that won out, and I am happy for him.  Yes, it may destroy his friendship with Roger, but the truth really will set him free.   

He also said he kept it quiet cause he got them from his dad and didn't wanna bring his name into this but i guess in the end his conscience got the best of him.

[GypsySoul]

I find it funny how people are saying how Andy is this great, stand-up, credible guy for admitting using AFTER he got named in that report.  Where was his conscience before that? 

And this shit about him not mentioning using in 2004 when he first fessed-up because he didn't want to bring his father's name into it??  HIS FATHER IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HIM THE SHIT!!! (here, son, take this ... it'll eventually kill you but you'll be unbeatable till then).  But it's okay to destroy your "friend's" name and legendary career, who you never actually witnessed taking or being given shit, based on a single conversation that happened almost ten years ago??

From a Yankees fan point of view ... I'm glad that our team has always thrived on the field despite internal conflicts in the locker room because even if they all say publicly that they like Andy and think it was the right thing for him to do (to admit using), I seriously doubt anyone is gonna "feel the love" for him for real.  And what's up with Pettitte not having to report to camp until Monday??  Guess it takes four days to get over stabbing your friend in the back.


As far as the Knoblauch thing goes ... MLB should use tapes of his last stint with the Yankees when they're talking to kids about the dangers of using. 

[The Dog]

all these scum bag ball players are so freakin' guilty.  When the dust settles from this I don't know how any Yankee fan can't admit that the most recent championships the franchise has won that these guys were involved with should have a GIGANTIC asterisk next to it.

totally wrong thread, but the same goes for Pats fans with Belicheat - the NFL commissioner should be fired and Belechick suspended for a year or something.

its ridiculous what these guys get away with.  scum bags.

[G2N2R]

all these scum bag ball players are so freakin' guilty.  When the dust settles from this I don't know how any Yankee fan can't admit that the most recent championships the franchise has won that these guys were involved with should have a GIGANTIC asterisk next to it.

totally wrong thread, but the same goes for Pats fans with Belicheat - the NFL commissioner should be fired and Belechick suspended for a year or something.

its ridiculous what these guys get away with.  scum bags.

I agree that it's horrible that these teams cheat and these players use steroids, but can you really put an asterisk on the Yankees Championships? I pretty much gaurantee you each team in the last 10 or so years, or more, has had a few players using steroids on them. It's not like it's only the Yankees, this is a league wide problem and there were and are a ton of players who used or are still using steroids at this time. Does it make them scumbags? I don't know, some of them probably felt they needed to do steroids and HGH in order to keep up with the other players who were already cheating, if they hadn't the production would have been lower and who knows if they'd make the money they did or still be playing a starting role on the team.

As for the Patriots, this isn't the thread for that talk, but c'mon man every team in some form steals the signs of the opposite team. EVERYONE says this, it's just the Patriots went a little overboard by taping them instead of watching with there eyes. Is it bad? Yeah, but in every sport teams do whatever they can to win, and I don't think what the Patriots did was overall that big of a deal. The NFL Commish should NOT be fired, he did his job and punished the Patriots, I don't know why peolpe want to draw up a conspiracy theory that Goodell is somehow protecting the Patriots and withholding information on further cheating. He wouldn't do that, he has no reason to do that.

[Axl4Prez2004]

I find it funny how people are saying how Andy is this great, stand-up, credible guy for admitting using AFTER he got named in that report.  Where was his conscience before that? 

And this shit about him not mentioning using in 2004 when he first fessed-up because he didn't want to bring his father's name into it??  HIS FATHER IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HIM THE SHIT!!! (here, son, take this ... it'll eventually kill you but you'll be unbeatable till then).  But it's okay to destroy your "friend's" name and legendary career, who you never actually witnessed taking or being given shit, based on a single conversation that happened almost ten years ago??

From a Yankees fan point of view ... I'm glad that our team has always thrived on the field despite internal conflicts in the locker room because even if they all say publicly that they like Andy and think it was the right thing for him to do (to admit using), I seriously doubt anyone is gonna "feel the love" for him for real.  And what's up with Pettitte not having to report to camp until Monday??  Guess it takes four days to get over stabbing your friend in the back.


As far as the Knoblauch thing goes ... MLB should use tapes of his last stint with the Yankees when they're talking to kids about the dangers of using. 

Gypsy, you have to admit it had to be very hard for Andy Pettitte to tell all.  He told the truth and you call it "stabbing" Roger "in the back?"  Even Roger said Andy Pettitte is an honest person...........Roger just claims Andy "misremebered" their conversation.

Puh-leeeeze.    

I remember when someone brought up Debbie Clemens earlier in this thread and went off on mcNamee calling him a scumbag to drag Mrs. Clemens into this.  Well guess what, I don't hear Debbie denying anything. 

btw, did anybody read the article that said McNamee's lawyer believes it doesn't matter what the outcome of all this turns out to be, George W Bush may pardon The Rocket.  Apparently Roger is very good friends with the Bush family.  In fact, George H.W. called Roger up while Roger was deer hunting when all the crap "hit the fan" to support Roger.  Papa Bush told him it was outrageous and they were fully behind him.

...and yes, just about my entire sports-watching life has been tainted by drugs.  Thanks to these greedy douchebags, I have grown so cynical it's difficult for me to get excited anymore (yes I know, there are little blue pills to help me with that...that was a pre-emptive strike on my own comment  ) so I'm just not as excited anymore.

my favorite moment in sports of the last decade had to be the autistic son of the high school basketball coach up near Rochester, NY coming into the game with like 4 minutes left...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6cOp6EDFlI

...it makes me tear up every time I watch it.  that's why I love sports.   

[D]

I find it funny how people are saying how Andy is this great, stand-up, credible guy for admitting using AFTER he got named in that report.  Where was his conscience before that? 

And this shit about him not mentioning using in 2004 when he first fessed-up because he didn't want to bring his father's name into it??  HIS FATHER IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HIM THE SHIT!!! (here, son, take this ... it'll eventually kill you but you'll be unbeatable till then).  But it's okay to destroy your "friend's" name and legendary career, who you never actually witnessed taking or being given shit, based on a single conversation that happened almost ten years ago??

From a Yankees fan point of view ... I'm glad that our team has always thrived on the field despite internal conflicts in the locker room because even if they all say publicly that they like Andy and think it was the right thing for him to do (to admit using), I seriously doubt anyone is gonna "feel the love" for him for real.  And what's up with Pettitte not having to report to camp until Monday??  Guess it takes four days to get over stabbing your friend in the back.


As far as the Knoblauch thing goes ... MLB should use tapes of his last stint with the Yankees when they're talking to kids about the dangers of using. 

Holy shit, I actually agree with u on something.............. I dont really understand why the Fuck Andy Came clean. WIth he and Roger denying shit together, I believe they would've got a free ride. It would've been those two vs a lying piece of shit douche with no credibility.

Also, he should've said he didnt know if Roger did it or not. Why rat out your friend if u don't have to?

Fuck Asteriks in sports. I believe everyone pretty much cheats to a degree. Look at Bill Bellichik in the NFL. Bastard has been taping since 2000 and u dont hear hardly any outcry about asteriks on NE's shit. To me what Bill did was way worse than any MLB player who took steroids.

Clemens probably should've took the Pettitte route. Said he was curious about Steroids and he saw how great the hitters got, so he felt he had to take them to stay competitive etc. People would've bought that and forgave Roger without thinking twice.

he really is painting himself into a corner he cant get out of. I believed him at first. But why would Pettitte lie? And if McNamee shot his wife in the ass with steroids, why wouldn't he have done the same to Clemens?

Too much shit is against Roger right now for him to be innocent in my opinion.

[tim_m]

I find it funny how people are saying how Andy is this great, stand-up, credible guy for admitting using AFTER he got named in that report.  Where was his conscience before that? 

And this shit about him not mentioning using in 2004 when he first fessed-up because he didn't want to bring his father's name into it??  HIS FATHER IS THE ONE WHO GAVE HIM THE SHIT!!! (here, son, take this ... it'll eventually kill you but you'll be unbeatable till then).  But it's okay to destroy your "friend's" name and legendary career, who you never actually witnessed taking or being given shit, based on a single conversation that happened almost ten years ago??

From a Yankees fan point of view ... I'm glad that our team has always thrived on the field despite internal conflicts in the locker room because even if they all say publicly that they like Andy and think it was the right thing for him to do (to admit using), I seriously doubt anyone is gonna "feel the love" for him for real.  And what's up with Pettitte not having to report to camp until Monday??  Guess it takes four days to get over stabbing your friend in the back.


As far as the Knoblauch thing goes ... MLB should use tapes of his last stint with the Yankees when they're talking to kids about the dangers of using. 

Holy shit, I actually agree with u on something.............. I dont really understand why the Fuck Andy Came clean. WIth he and Roger denying shit together, I believe they would've got a free ride. It would've been those two vs a lying piece of shit douche with no credibility.

Also, he should've said he didnt know if Roger did it or not. Why rat out your friend if u don't have to?

Fuck Asteriks in sports. I believe everyone pretty much cheats to a degree. Look at Bill Bellichik in the NFL. Bastard has been taping since 2000 and u dont hear hardly any outcry about asteriks on NE's shit. To me what Bill did was way worse than any MLB player who took steroids.

Clemens probably should've took the Pettitte route. Said he was curious about Steroids and he saw how great the hitters got, so he felt he had to take them to stay competitive etc. People would've bought that and forgave Roger without thinking twice.

he really is painting himself into a corner he cant get out of. I believed him at first. But why would Pettitte lie? And if McNamee shot his wife in the ass with steroids, why wouldn't he have done the same to Clemens?

Too much shit is against Roger right now for him to be innocent in my opinion.

I agree i think clemens is lying and trying to bring everyone down with him including his family to keep the lie alive. I believe Pettitte has told the complete truth about what he's done and knows.

[GypsySoul]

Gypsy, you have to admit it had to be very hard for Andy Pettitte to tell all.  He told the truth and you call it "stabbing" Roger "in the back?"  Even Roger said Andy Pettitte is an honest person...........Roger just claims Andy "misremebered" their conversation.

Pettitte's recollection of his own use appears to be "sporadic" at best for whatever reason.  With the thousands and thousands of conversations that Andy and Roger must have had over the years, IMO, it would have been just as "truthful" for him to say that he believes he does remember a conversation with Roger about HGH but that it was ONE conversation and it happened almost ten years ago so he doesn't feel comfortable after all these years that his memory of the specifics of that conversation would be completely accurate.  But what he can say with 100% accuracy is that he has NEVER witnessed Roger using and that he has NEVER had a discussion with Roger about him (Andy) using shit himself.   

[russkwtx]

I don't know about you guys (or gals), but I am tired of this. Even if Roger used, and it is an open question that probably will never be solved, it was before it was illegal. That does not make it right, but I am saying let's move on. I want the government out of sports. What is the point of a witch hunt? I say, ok, it happened. Bad. But why prosecute now? Just test the hell out of everyone and if they are using suspend or ban them. But this government intervention is tiresome. We have it in baseball, and now that asshole Spector, who can barely put a coherent sentence together, wants to investigate the Pats and the NFL commissioner. Give me a break, what is next? A govt commission to oversee trades and salaries? Let sports be sports. 

I think you're mistaken.  Steroids were never "legal".  HGH was never "legal".  They just didn't have a rigorous testing system for steroids and none for HGH, that doesn't make them "legal".  I agree about the gov't staying out of sports.  They love this stuff.  I love how one of the guys tried to say how they don't like getting all the media attention, then went on to hammer away at McNamee like he was auditioning for a lawyer role in a movie.  I agree not much came out of this.  It's all a matter of who the public believes is telling the truth, and I think the public overwhelmingly thinks Clemens is guilty.  I thought he was guilty from day 1 and he hasn't done anything to change my mind.  It hasn't been proven yet, and it will be difficult to get to that point, but all the evidence seems to be against him.

Really the only thing going against McNamee is his questionable reputation.  To that I say, "the man was a drug dealer, what do you expect?  A scholarly gentlemen?"  They tried to hammer away at the "lies" he told in the investigation.  That's what drug dealers do when they get caught.  They lie.  Big surprise there.  He's really got no reason to lie anymore, especially since Pettitte, Knoblauch, etc.'s testimony backs him up.

I am not saying it was legal. I am saying that it was not explicitly illegal, and there were no officially sanctioned tests. There is a difference.

[russkwtx]

Gypsy, you have to admit it had to be very hard for Andy Pettitte to tell all.  He told the truth and you call it "stabbing" Roger "in the back?"  Even Roger said Andy Pettitte is an honest person...........Roger just claims Andy "misremebered" their conversation.

Pettitte's recollection of his own use appears to be "sporadic" at best for whatever reason.  With the thousands and thousands of conversations that Andy and Roger must have had over the years, IMO, it would have been just as "truthful" for him to say that he believes he does remember a conversation with Roger about HGH but that it was ONE conversation and it happened almost ten years ago so he doesn't feel comfortable after all these years that his memory of the specifics of that conversation would be completely accurate.  But what he can say with 100% accuracy is that he has NEVER witnessed Roger using and that he has NEVER had a discussion with Roger about him (Andy) using shit himself.   

Exactly. The public has not been given a truthful use of evidence. We have been give snippets, as reported by the press. We have not seen the full statement or the context. Further, in the American judicial system, the accused has the right to confront the accuser. We have not had that. We have accused/tried/guilty via excerpts of purported statements. That is fundamentally unfair and unjust. Until we get a full and fair hearing of all evidence according to accepted rules of evidence, we can conclude nothing. But I suspect that will not happen.

[faldor]

I'm beginning to think Clemens will have a TOUGH time making the hall of fame though, if he's not PROVEN innocent.  I know you're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but we all know it doesn't really work that way.  The evidence is clearly not stacked in his favor and the public views him as a cheater and a liar right now.  I have a feeling that will outweigh all his on-field accomplishments.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Listen, no offense, but when you are a professional athlete and a fellow athlete, a friend, reveals to you he is or has dabbled in something illegal...I'm sorry, but that gets burned into your hard-drive.  Yes, I've had thousands upon thousands of convos with my friends, but if a buddy tells me one day he did drugs, or had an affair, or killed somebody, hell yeah I'm gonna remember it!  

I feel bad for Roger.  He's chosen to go this route and there's no turning back.  All he had to do was be honest, but his pride wouldn't let him.  

btw, Gypsy, are you a lawyer?  You are very well-spoken and put forth a nice defense for a man who desperately needs one!    

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Clemens hater.  I have only been to 4 MLB games in my lifetime.  2 of them were at Fenway, and one was a masterful performance by Clemens head to head against the Brewers' lefty Teddy Higuera about 20 years ago.  He was amazing.  I admire the guy's work ethic.....I just wish he stayed clean.

My question to all of you is just something I thought up today in the car.  In an effort to finally clean house at the professional level, could the Feds announce a universal immunity offer to all persons with knowledge of a professional athlete having used performance-enhancing drugs?  There have to be trainers/exes, etc. with knowledge and/or evidence of pro athletes' dirty secrets.  Of course without an immunity offer, they'd be stupid to come forward.  Could something like that fly???

If so, if the major sports organizations were smart they'd have private investigators snooping after announcements were made.  Besides their lawyers, who does the accused athlete call first?  

I really wish something like this could happen.  What upsets me about the Clemens case is not only Roger's lies, but the fact so many others are getting away with cheating while Roger, Barry, and Big Mac take most of the heat.  

[The Dog]

I think the spotlight is on the big name players b/c, really, who cares if some guy hitting .250 is on roids.  its the guys that transcend the game, that break records, that we stare at in awe that get the headlines.  more importantly, their achievements are meaningless when you know they weren't earned honestly.  they are cheaters.

your immunity idea is interesting and i won't be surprised if those that do come forward aren't offered some killer deal to save their own asses.

funny about Bush offering immunity, just another reason to hate Bush 


i think "misremembered" is my new favorite word btw 

[D]

Clemens and Bonds were both hall of famers without steroids so they shouldn't be punished.Clemens had over 200 wins and 4  Cy youngs without roids. So it makes u wonder why the hell he would've done them in the first place.

[tim_m]

Thats what i don't get about Clemens if infact he is guilty. He was already probably the greatest pitcher of our time why taint his acomplishments.

[pilferk]

also, i've heard from a few VERY reliable people that said it is unheard of to have a personal trainer inject a professional athlete with anything.

also, i'm trying to find if clemens described where mcnamee injected the lidocaine. it seems like he is saying it was injected in his ass, which isn't how you inject it. lidocaine is injected locally.

1) Untrue.  At least in terms of a "personal trainer" for a pro athlete.  A "normal" personal trainer?  Yes.  And...wasn't McNamee on the team payroll when the alleged incidents occurred?  I can't remember, off the top of my head.

2) Correct.  Lidocaine is typically injected or applied at the site of the inflamation.  So unless Roger had a pain in the ass....

[pilferk]

all these scum bag ball players are so freakin' guilty.  When the dust settles from this I don't know how any Yankee fan can't admit that the most recent championships the franchise has won that these guys were involved with should have a GIGANTIC asterisk next to it.

totally wrong thread, but the same goes for Pats fans with Belicheat - the NFL commissioner should be fired and Belechick suspended for a year or something.

its ridiculous what these guys get away with.  scum bags.

And that, my friends, is the danger of the Mitchell report and only using "sources" that had exposure to two teams: The Yanks and the Mets.

[sandman]

also, i've heard from a few VERY reliable people that said it is unheard of to have a personal trainer inject a professional athlete with anything.

also, i'm trying to find if clemens described where mcnamee injected the lidocaine. it seems like he is saying it was injected in his ass, which isn't how you inject it. lidocaine is injected locally.

1) Untrue.  At least in terms of a "personal trainer" for a pro athlete.  A "normal" personal trainer?  Yes.  And...wasn't McNamee on the team payroll when the alleged incidents occurred?  I can't remember, off the top of my head.

2) Correct.  Lidocaine is typically injected or applied at the site of the inflamation.  So unless Roger had a pain in the ass....

1) what's your source? cause you are saying it like you know for a fact.

the trainer for the Philadelphia Flyers says only medical doctors can give injections in the ass cause there are major risks involved. every team he knows of does not allow it. he also said it's not part of their training.

my cousin has asked a number of professional athletes the same question, and WIP in philly has had several athletes on this week that have said athletic trainers do not give those type of injections. some even suggested it's illegal in certain states.