FALSE: "daily star" (yes I know...) -album in 2008 at the earliest

[EstrangedReality]

I dont agree with everything he has done or does, but that doesn't mean I feel he owes me anything.  He doesn't.

Let's get away from you personally. Maybe you're someone who doesn't hold people to their promises. The reason the majority of people are upset is due to the fact that Axl did tell people he would produce an album last year.

I'm not arguing over what changed that and I don't want to turn this into an argument over new tentative dates. I'm talking base facts here. FACT: he has said numerous times he is going to release another album. He has given 2006 dates and 2007 dates, none met.

When you say he doesn't owe you anything? Maybe not by your standards--but by everyone else's, when they're told - as fans - by an artist that he's releasing new material, that's a verbal promise. You can't change the definition of the word. If it were true that Axl hadn't actually ever said he was working on a new album, fine. But he has - many times - referenced the "forthcoming" or "upcoming" album and has even given tentative dates and loose dates ("Fall 2006" on Eddie Trunk, for example).

When you are telling fans through the media (Rolling Stone, Trunk, VMAs) that something is going to come out, that's a promise. Like it or not. And maybe you're different than the majority of people in that you don't hold people to their word and don't feel like somebody owes you something after they promise you something - but most people think otherwise.

I like you, Jim Bob. I don't dislike you and I don't dislike the band and I'm not here to bash Axl. But I don't think it's even arguable that he has promised a new album. And by most standards, when you promise something, that's taking it upon yourself to owe something. People have been sued in court for not fulfilling verbal agreements. Obviously, no one is going to take Axl to court because it's not quite the same. I'm just using it as an example. When you tell someone that you're going to do something, like releasing an album, how can you claim that person doesn't owe anything?

[EstrangedReality]

"this is not a promise, a lie or a guarantee."

I'm not holding Axl to doing anything.

That was for the MARCH 6TH RELEASE DATE! He said he wasn't promising a March release date. He did NOT say he wasn't promising an album. The entire point of that press release was to announce a tentative date for the album. 

Axl has been talking about his new album since 1999. Last year he told people it was coming out.

I'm not arguing over the release date. I don't give a shit. That's not the point. The point is - whether next year or a million years from now - at some point Axl does owe an album.

People talking about him not owing us stuff also like to skim over the whole fact that Axl took Universal/Geffen's money to make an album and he signed a contract with them promising an album. The reason there have been so many legal issues is because he DIDN'T provide an album. He already broke his word and his contract with Geffen - and they subsequently dropped him from funding. Even if he doesn't owe us anything, he owed them something, and he didn't deliver, and they could have sued him for it - instead, they cut funding and released a Greatest Hits instead.

[Jim Bob]

I dont agree with everything he has done or does, but that doesn't mean I feel he owes me anything.  He doesn't.

Let's get away from you personally. Maybe you're someone who doesn't hold people to their promises. The reason the majority of people are upset is due to the fact that Axl did tell people he would produce an album last year.

I'm not arguing over what changed that and I don't want to turn this into an argument over new tentative dates. I'm talking base facts here. FACT: he has said numerous times he is going to release another album. He has given 2006 dates and 2007 dates, none met.

When you say he doesn't owe you anything? Maybe not by your standards--but by everyone else's, when they're told - as fans - by an artist that he's releasing new material, that's a verbal promise. You can't change the definition of the word. If it were true that Axl hadn't actually ever said he was working on a new album, fine. But he has - many times - referenced the "forthcoming" or "upcoming" album and has even given tentative dates and loose dates ("Fall 2006" on Eddie Trunk, for example).

When you are telling fans through the media (Rolling Stone, Trunk, VMAs) that something is going to come out, that's a promise. Like it or not. And maybe you're different than the majority of people in that you don't hold people to their word and don't feel like somebody owes you something after they promise you something - but most people think otherwise.

I like you, Jim Bob. I don't dislike you and I don't dislike the band and I'm not here to bash Axl. But I don't think it's even arguable that he has promised a new album. And by most standards, when you promise something, that's taking it upon yourself to owe something. People have been sued in court for not fulfilling verbal agreements. Obviously, no one is going to take Axl to court because it's not quite the same. I'm just using it as an example. When you tell someone that you're going to do something, like releasing an album, how can you claim that person doesn't owe anything?

yes I hold my friends or people I do business with to their promises and word.  Axl Rose isn't my friend and he didn't promise me anything.    Maybe he still plans on putting out the album, so using your logic he didn't break any promises unless he decides never to put it out?

[jarmo]

So it's as expected. You think Axl owes you something.

Wrong!


He can say that he's gonna release an album and then change his mind.

It's his art, it's his choice if he wants to share it with the rest of the world.


Many of us hope he does, but we don't feel like he owes it to us.





/jarmo

[EstrangedReality]

So it's as expected. You think Axl owes you something.

No. You like to take things to a personal level. I don't think Axl owes me anything. I think he owes his fanbase something. Why? Because he promised them something. You can try to make excuses all you want - saying he has the right not to deliver us anything - but all that means is that he backed down on his word. That's called a lie. If Slash worked on an album for five years and kept telling his fans it would come out, and went on tour playing GN'R songs using the title of the new album, then one day decided he changed his mind - you'd bet he first to attack him for it.

Don't be too quick to lump me in with Slash fans - I didn't really care much for the new VR album and in general I think Axl is a more interesting artist. I'm posting on GN'R forums for a reason: Axl. I love the new songs. I just don't really care much for what his fans are trying to provide as possible excuses just in case he never releases the album.

It will come out one day, whether he wants it to or not, by the way. Why? Legalities. You can claim he doesn't owe us anything - but he certainly owes Universal something eventually. Unless he's paying them back their $13 million and that's why he used promises of a new album to hype a tour last year... but I like to think this isn't the case because I respect Axl too much to let that be a possibility right now. I like to think he really does intend on releasing the album.

He can say that he's gonna release an album and then change his mind.

Of course he can. He could also rob a liquor store if he wanted to, or beat someone to death, or light a church on fire. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

He can change his mind, but when you promise someone something, in general it's taken within the context that you are owed what you have been promised.

And like I said - forget us for a moment. Think of the contract he signed with Geffen owing them a full-length album in return for their financing. Why did they drop financing? Why did they threaten to sue and instead release GH to cover their losses? Because Axl didn't fulfill his legal obligation to deliver an album to them by a certain point in time.

Sure, he can chance his mind - doesn't mean he still doesn't owe us something. Just means he isn't going to deliver it. I can write you a check for a new car. I can drive the car home with $0 in my bank account. I can let the check bounce. I might have changed my mind and decided not to pay - but I still owe them to live up to my side of the bargain.

[jarmo]

So it's as expected. You think Axl owes you something.

No. You like to take things to a personal level. I don't think Axl owes me anything. I think he owes his fanbase something. Why? Because he promised them something. You can try to make excuses all you want - saying he has the right not to deliver us anything - but all that means is that he backed down on his word. That's called a lie.

You think he owes the fanbase, but aren't you part of the fanbase?

In other words, doesn't that make him owe you in your opinion?


You're just twisting it to make it seem like you don't agree with what I said.

Stop acting like you're an outsider feeling sorry for others.

Of course he can. He could also rob a liquor store if he wanted to, or beat someone to death, or light a church on fire. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

Totally irrelevant and childish.

He can change his mind, but when you promise someone something, in general it's taken within the context that you are owed what you have been promised.

Let's assume he promised us the album.

How has that "promise" been broken?

It hasn't.

And like I said - forget us for a moment. Think of the contract he signed with Geffen owing them a full-length album in return for their financing. Why did they drop financing? Why did they threaten to sue and instead release GH to cover their losses? Because Axl didn't fulfill his legal obligation to deliver an album to them by a certain point in time.

Let the record company worry about that.

Unless you work for them.




/jarmo

[EstrangedReality]

You think he owes the fanbase, but aren't you part of the fanbase?

Jarmo - just because I think he owes the fanbase an album does not mean I, personally, expect Axl Rose to owe me an album. Things can be viewed individually and collectively for a reason. You're arguing semantics in a discussion that is wider. And (read below) I never brought up Axl "owing" anything in the first place - you did.

You're just twisting it to make it seem like you don't agree with what I said.

Actually, I think you're the one twisting what I said to make it seem like I'm trying to say I think Axl owes me something. I never said this - you put words in my mouth.

Let's drop the whole "owing" aspect. I don't really think that's even the right choice of words. I think at the end of the day, my respect for Axl would drop if he just did what you suggest and say, "I've changed my mind." I think it's wrong to do something like that. Forget whether he "owes" an album - it's a matter of human decency, morals, and staying true to one's word. You can debate semantics and personal issues - I'd rather debate generalities with facts.

I feel as if every time I try to have an intelligent discussion with you, you take snippets of my text out of context, then run off with them in a condescending manner to undermine my post. Case in point: you telling me I think Axl owes me something. It really bothers me that you would say this - because I never even said it to begin with. I'll address that in the next few paragraphs and you can re-read my post and see for yourself.

Totally irrelevant and childish.

How is an analogy irrelevant? It is completely align with what is being discussed. Analogies are meant to cross into the extremes. My point is - without the analogy you seem to hate so much - Axl can do anything he wants. Doesn't mean he should. Doesn't mean he's going to be a better person for it.

Let's assume he promised us the album.

How has that "promise" been broken?

It hasn't.

I never said it was, Jarmo. You responded to my initial post in this thread putting words in my mouth, saying I thought I was owed something. I never said that - but you certainly accused me of such. Read my first post again:

While I understand your concern - have you ever wondered why the band (or Axl) has acquired so much negativity within the past year? What other forum can you think of for a band where people have to literally enforce banning threats to keep people "supportive"? On other fan forums, a troll appears and all the fans stomp the troll and he gets out of there fast. And it used to be like that here and there - there were trolls in 2002, but people were so supportive then and last year that the trolls were beaten senseless in a fashion.

But the situation here has reached the point where almost every fan - bar few - has become frustrated. There have always been "GN'R Trolls" since the '90s who used to exist outside of the Internet, in the press. But now even the biggest fans of the band are getting to the point where they're bashing Axl. You act like these people are just coming here to cause a fuss and "be negative" - but I do think it's sad that it's come to the point where I see some of the staunchest supporters of Axl from the past few years are actually turning their backs on him. We can try to be supportive of him, but I do think ultimately Axl is the one inviting so much negativity. Some of the stuff he's done recently would challenge even the biggest fans. I still have faith in the band and Chinese Democracy, but I think there's a difference between constructive criticism that is formed out of care and just "trolling" - I think some of the people here who do love the band and are voicing negative opinions are doing so intelligently and with care for Axl, but they're still being treated as if they're trolls.

I didn't even address the issue of fans being owed an album. You put the words in my mouth. I defended myself, and you turned it into a debate of semantics and whether or not Axl Rose owes an album.

I wasn't debating that. I was just saying that the frustration is understandable. Maybe you think otherwise - that's fine - but you don't have to try to undermine me by way of insults and unfounded accusations. I really do think you're a great webmaster, Jarmo, but sometimes it can be frustrating talking with you because I feel like you read things the way you want to read them and you just quote things here and there without trying to comprehend them a little better. I hope there are no hard feelings, though, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!   Like I said, I don't think he "owes" an album to me/us, but I do understand some of the skepticism/criticism going on right now, even if I don't agree with 100% of it.

[fuckin crazy]

 He could also rob a liquor store if he wanted to, or beat someone to death, or light a church on fire. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

Your logic is flawed. You can't compare criminal illegalities to an album's release. Now, If the album were released and Axl went around breaking into everyones house stealing the disk ... that would be a fair analogy to your argument.

[EstrangedReality]

 He could also rob a liquor store if he wanted to, or beat someone to death, or light a church on fire. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

Your logic is flawed. You can't compare criminal illegalities to an album's release. Now, If the album were released and Axl went around breaking into everyones house stealing the disk ... that would be a fair analogy to your argument.

I wasn't comparing illegal activities to an album release - I was comparing what can and cannot be done and pointing out that just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. I could use the same examples for any analogy dealing with a could/couldn't argument. But that's beside the point...

[fuckin crazy]

I stand by my post. Your argument is apples and oranges. A better analogy might be ... someone said they would loan you money, and for whatever reason they haven't ... maybe they havne't been paid yet, or maybe they changed their mind.

[EstrangedReality]

I stand by my post. Your argument is apples and oranges. A better analogy might be ... someone said they would loan you money, and for whatever reason they haven't ... maybe they havne't been paid yet, or maybe they changed their mind.

Maybe you know this one:

Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one.

[fuckin crazy]

Opinions are one thing. However, if one re-reads the post, it will become readily apparent, that nothing was opined. It was mearly a statement of fact.

[chinese democrazy]

I read this little page eight debate (sweet rhyming right there) and I agree 100% with what russian roulette said.  Might I also commend you on how well-worded it was and you made your points clear without being derogative at all. Something that is kind of rare around these parts. 

I would just like to add, instead of giving the deserving fan-base a record, he could at the very least, release an informative press release detailing where the record  honestly stands, maybe even containing an apology. If this has already been done then, I apologize hehe

[iloozion]

I agree that he doesn't "owe" us the album, and that he did say the release date of March 6th was? only "tentative" - so he wasn't lying there, BUT he also said:

"...We would like to assure the fans that everything in our power will be done to meet this date. Once it is finalized and official, you will be notified. If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible..."

So far I don't remember Axl or the band or management issuing a statement saying that the album has been "delayed for unseen reasons" or notified us of a "new date" - so as far as that is concerened he hasn't done what he said and I think we kind of are owed that.

[jazjme]

You are missing the point of the statement you wrote, I believe.. If we are delayed for unseen reasons, you also will be notified as soon as possible in regard to a new date, and the album will be released as shortly thereafter as is possible..."

nothing changed on that.. but you are forgetting the statements avout the album is done , being mixed, and before the tour ,, I think people have selected memory on this, when tommy fucked uped his wrist.. and they couldn't do shows they had planed in Africa.. I mean we have been notified on things due course, and were only giving a definitive tentitive date.. but as all else has gone on, I think the band has been as forward as can be, the band members themselves have been talking. There as statement of Axl being on Bas's record and people are bitching cause that version isnt something they can hear, cause I assume Bas and the record company deemed to leave these things  for HIS album release.

Peace

jazjme

[gunns1]

So it's as expected. You think Axl owes you something.

No. You like to take things to a personal level. I don't think Axl owes me anything. I think he owes his fanbase something. Why? Because he promised them something. You can try to make excuses all you want - saying he has the right not to deliver us anything - but all that means is that he backed down on his word. That's called a lie.

You think he owes the fanbase, but aren't you part of the fanbase?

In other words, doesn't that make him owe you in your opinion?


You're just twisting it to make it seem like you don't agree with what I said.

Stop acting like you're an outsider feeling sorry for others.

Of course he can. He could also rob a liquor store if he wanted to, or beat someone to death, or light a church on fire. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should.

Totally irrelevant and childish.

He can change his mind, but when you promise someone something, in general it's taken within the context that you are owed what you have been promised.

Let's assume he promised us the album.

How has that "promise" been broken?

It hasn't.

And like I said - forget us for a moment. Think of the contract he signed with Geffen owing them a full-length album in return for their financing. Why did they drop financing? Why did they threaten to sue and instead release GH to cover their losses? Because Axl didn't fulfill his legal obligation to deliver an album to them by a certain point in time.

Let the record company worry about that.

Unless you work for them.




/jarmo

"It'll come out fall, late fall"

"Yes its coming out this year"

All this was said in 2006 by Axl repeatedly, at the eddie trunk interview,
vma's etc etc...

So, Not that he didnt promise anything, But making statements actually saying that its coming out year 2006, and continually saying throughout the year that it was coming out,
gives people False hope, especially when It comes straight from the hoarses mouth,
I mean If we cant take Axl seriously, and he is the only suviving member of the old gnr,
who can we take seriously, Merk?

Beta?

[daviebuckethead]

the defence of axl in here sometimes is reall really over obsessive. i mean i really think some of you have become so deluded that you need help!

i can imagine someone here saying one day, " so axl came to my house, he was a really asshole, he fucked my mom, tied me down and shit all over my face for three days.....BUT hey its axl, he's so cool, and mysterious"

then there would be a debate if he had hidden the album in his faeces.........

i actually feel sorry for Russsian Roulette, he worded his arguments well, didnt insult people, and remained calm...and made very VALID points. he's absolutely correct.

Axl doesn't owe him anything, he owes the fans (collective) and himself everything.


p.s he owes the bandmates that have had to put up with the eccentric delays for something like 8 years, he should repay their loyalty, faith, belief

[gunns1]

the defence of axl in here sometimes is reall really over obsessive. i mean i really think some of you have become so deluded that you need help!

i can imagine someone here saying one day, " so axl came to my house, he was a really asshole, he fucked my mom, tied me down and shit all over my face for three days.....BUT hey its axl, he's so cool, and mysterious"

then there would be a debate if he had hidden the album in his faeces.........

i actually feel sorry for Russsian Roulette, he worded his arguments well, didnt insult people, and remained calm...and made very VALID points. he's absolutely correct.

Axl doesn't owe him anything, he owes the fans (collective) and himself everything.


p.s he owes the bandmates that have had to put up with the eccentric delays for something like 8 years, he should repay their loyalty, faith, belief

EXACTLY!
Couldnt of said it better myself,
He owes the fans something, AT THE VERY LEAST, after all
we have stuck by him through the good times and the bad,
having freaks in the band like buckethead etc,

Me personally, and Another aussie on here, flew around Australia to see Guns N roses (I just flew up to brisbane to see them, and back in sydney)
Why? Because I believe In Axl, and I enjoy his voice/music/performance,
Why doesnt he believe in the fans, and more importantly his own band, and stand behind chinese democracy and releaSe the thing already,
I can only guess How Richard, Tommy and Robin and Pitman are feeling, after being in the band all this time,
and Only playing a small handful of their actuall songs, and playing a majority of songs they didnt even write,
Wouldnt you think they would want to showcase their talent, and actually perhaps receive world wide gratitude for their own creative work?
I.E CHINESE DEMOCRACY BEING RELEASED,
their the guys I feel sorry for...

[Jonx]

People have to at least accept the fact that Axl may no longer be the problem. Completling the album is only 50% of what is needed to actually get the thing in shops. There could be numerous other factors that are stopping CD coming out. Record Company, Legal Problems, Contracts, Royalties etc

Universal wont do anything towards CD until they have it in their hands. Usually they have a provisional date and can start working on promo etc weeks/months in advance because they know with a reasonable margin of error that an album is going to be in their hands by a certain date. With Guns this is no longer the case as Axl has missed so many deadlines. Universal wont start anything until they physically have CD in the boardroom. That greatly lengthens the time they will need to release it.

I still believe we will have it by the end of the year, but that belief will expire if nothing happens by early Oct

Jonx

[elmir]

he owes the fans (collective) and himself everything.

that is the only person he owes anything to....no one else...as far as fans go, he may owe something to those who went through serious personal expense to arrange travel and accommodation for show which ended up being canceled.....but even that's debatable...if they end up redoing those canceled shows, perhaps dishing out a few complimentary tickets is not a bad idea....

other than that....he doesn't owe the fanbase anything....nothing....we chose to stick to our guns for all these years...no one asked us to....

p.s he owes the bandmates that have had to put up with the eccentric delays for something like 8 years, he should repay their loyalty, faith, belief

if they are paid employees operating under contract, then they have received their compensation for the work, loyalty, faith, belief....and whatever else....unless some of them have invested personal finance into the project and need to get it repaid as soon as, he doesn't owe them anything either....

what you are talking about is on a cerebral (emotional) level.....it feels wrong, it feels abusive....it feels incorrect....but when compared to tangible deliverables, the reality of it all is that he doesn't really owe anyone anything....

p.s.
this excludes the record company, not sure if he owes them anything either, as we don't know the ins and outs of the contracts, so can't really debate that one either....