Here Today... Gone To Hell! | Message Board


Guns N Roses
of all the message boards on the internet, this is one...

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 01, 2024, 11:29:54 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
1228661 Posts in 43279 Topics by 9264 Members
Latest Member: EllaGNR
* Home Help Calendar Go to HTGTH Login Register
+  Here Today... Gone To Hell!
|-+  Off Topic
| |-+  The Jungle
| | |-+  Iraq critics concede military progress
0 Members and 16 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All Go Down Print
Author Topic: Iraq critics concede military progress  (Read 13863 times)
DevilHatesALoser
Guest
« on: August 09, 2007, 03:07:06 PM »

Iraq critics concede military progress By TOM RAUM, Associated Press Writer
 16 minutes ago
 


Even some critics of President Bush's Iraq war policies are conceding there is evidence of recent improvements from a military standpoint. But Bush supporters and critics alike agree that these have not been matched by any noticeable progress on the political front.

Despite U.S. pressure, Iraq's parliament went on vacation for a month after failing to pass either legislation to share the nation's oil wealth or to reconcile differences among the factions. And nearly all Sunni representatives in the government have quit, undermining the legitimacy of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite.

Still, there have been signs of changes in attitudes, some on the ground in Iraq, some in the United States:

_Two critics of Bush's recent handling of Iraq, Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth Pollack, both of the Brookings Institution, penned an op-ed opinion piece in The New York Times suggesting after a visit that "we are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms." They recommended Congress sustain the current troop buildup "at least into 2008."

_Leading anti-war Democrat Rep. John Murtha of Pennsylvania predicted that U.S. commanders will begin drawing down troop levels early next year and that Congress can be more flexible in setting a fixed deadline for ending the U.S. occupation.

_Polls suggest that Bush has had some degree of success in linking Islamic militants in Iraq with the al-Qaida terrorist movement.

"The administration is aggressively engaged in shifting (public) attitudes. And our side has been less aggressive than it needs to be," said Democratic pollster Celinda Lake. "The administration has been making inroads on their Iraqi argument, particularly linking it to terrorism."

After sliding to just 28 percent in June, within range of an all-time low, Bush's job approval rating on handling Iraq rose slightly to 31 percent in July, according to AP-Ipsos polling. And a recent CBS/NYT poll showed an increase in the percentage of Americans who think the U.S. did the right thing in going to war with Iraq, up to 42 percent from 35 percent in May.

"I don't claim our recommendation to keep surging into 2008 is a no-brainer. That can be debated. But I think people's opinions need to catch up with the battlefield facts," O'Hanlon said in an interview.

The op-ed piece he wrote with Pollack has been widely circulated by war supporters but denounced by many war critics. "As long as people start to get a sense that what's happening on the battlefield is different and better than what it was, then I feel like we've made our contribution," said O'Hanlon.

O'Hanlon and Pollack supported the 2003 invasion of Iraq, but they have been sharply critical of the administration's handling of the aftermath.

Like the Iraqi parliament, Congress has recessed for the rest of August, to return in September ? when an eagerly awaited progress report on Iraq will be presented by Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq.

Bush previewed that report on Thursday, telling a news conference, "My own perspective is that they (Iraqis) have made some progress but not enough. I fully recognize this is a difficult assignment."

What lawmakers hear from their constituents during the next month could do a lot to shape the Iraq debate ahead of receiving that report.

Visiting Iraq, Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin, the second-ranking Democrat in the Senate, said Wednesday from Baghdad that American-led forces were "making some measurable progress, but it's slow going."

"As our troops show some progress toward security, the government of this nation is moving in the opposite direction. This is really unsustainable with the American people," Durbin said in an interview with National Public Radio.

House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said that Petraeus' plan was "producing good results. And the troops have achieved tactical momentum against al-Qaida. ...We're anxious to see what General Petraeus has to say in September. It will be a watershed moment in our efforts in Iraq."

Petraeus asserted that "we are making progress. We have achieved tactical momentum in many areas, especially against al-Qaida Iraq, and to a lesser degree against the militia extremists." Still, he told Fox News on Tuesday that "there are innumerable challenges."

Anthony Cordesman, an Iraq expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies said, progress there "is a very mixed bag." After visiting Iraq, Cordesman cited recent military successes against al-Qaida terrorists ? but said there has been less progress against Shiite extremist groups.

"I think senior Iraqi political leaders are talking to each other, but they're doing it around the prime minister (al-Maliki). It's not clear the prime minister is exerting any great leadership toward conciliation," Cordesman said.

"Barring a miracle, there will be very little political progress to point to in mid-September," Cordesman said Thursday in a briefing on his trip.

Michele Flournoy, a former Pentagon defense strategist and now president of the Center for a New American Security, said that "the clock in Washington is running down pretty fast. There's sort of a wall next March-April. That's when they'll have to start replacing units, which will hit the 15-month mark." Bush recently extended tours of duty from 12 months to 15 months.

"They're going to have some very tough choices then. Either the 'surge' will de facto end and they'll start bringing people out because there's no units to replace them. Or you're going to have to have a presidential decision to extend tours from 15 months to 18 months," Flournoy said.

Loren Thompson of the Lexington Institute, a Virginia-based think tank that follows defense issues, cites "significant progress" on the military front. "There's the backlash against al-Qaida in Anbar Province. There's a reduction in attacks in Baghdad. And there's the ongoing stabilization efforts in the suburban belt around Baghdad," Thompson said.

"The problem is that nobody in the United States sees any significant progress on the political front. The Shiites and Sunni factions in the government don't seem to be able to get along. And that makes Congress wonder whether we're making any real progress. Because, even with better security, the country can't figure out how to take care of itself," Thompson added.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070809/ap_on_go_pr_wh/iraq_attitudes
Logged
Dr. Blutarsky
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4227



« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 08:32:52 AM »

The surge is working. Also I think this is because the Iraqis themselves are starting to wake up. But the Govt needs work still, they're a mess at the moment.
Logged

1̶2̶/̶1̶3̶/̶0̶2̶ - T̶a̶m̶p̶a̶,̶ ̶F̶L̶
10/31/06 - Jacksonville, FL
10/28/11 - Orlando, FL
3/3/12 - Orlando, FL
7/29/16 - Orlando, FL
8/8/17 - Miami, FL
The Dog
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2131



« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 10:13:11 AM »

While its great they are making progress, the real AQ is in Pakistan/Afghanistan.

Even if we "win" in Iraq, it'll never be worth the price we paid for what the end results are:  more terrorists, more people who hate us.  It was/is a huge mistake.  Right now they are just trying to fix it.  I'm hopefully skeptical about all of this.
Logged

"You're the worst character ever Towelie."
GeraldFord
Guest
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 12:11:54 PM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.
Logged
SLCPUNK
Guest
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2007, 02:46:54 PM »

Surge me once, shame on you. Surge me twice...
Logged
fuckin crazy
Banned
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2270


Social Democracy Now!!!


« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2007, 05:25:26 PM »

The surge is working.

The surge is working great, as I knew it would; everything is going as planned ...



... if your an extremist bent on killing americans.

recycled 10U+00b910U00b9
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 10:57:48 AM by SLC's minion » Logged

i got lit last night, and I got lit the night before ... I'm drinkin' heavily and I will git lit some more
Dr. Blutarsky
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4227



« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 08:23:35 AM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.

Stop being the optimist, we have too many of them around here  hihi
Logged

1̶2̶/̶1̶3̶/̶0̶2̶ - T̶a̶m̶p̶a̶,̶ ̶F̶L̶
10/31/06 - Jacksonville, FL
10/28/11 - Orlando, FL
3/3/12 - Orlando, FL
7/29/16 - Orlando, FL
8/8/17 - Miami, FL
GeraldFord
Guest
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2007, 08:47:18 AM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.

Stop being the optimist, we have too many of them around here? hihi

Can you refute any of those claims?
Logged
GeraldFord
Guest
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2007, 08:48:19 AM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.

Stop being the optimist, we have too many of them around here? hihi
Logged
Izzy
Whine, moan, complain... Repeat
Legend
*****

Karma: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8688


More than meets the eye


« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2007, 10:40:07 AM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.

 Roll Eyes

1. Been into the future have we? Jim Crow would have told ya blacks would never vote in a US election....

2. There were no lies and no deceit in the invasion, only the most morose thought this was anything but an attempt to get oil. You were ''decieved''? confused

3. Bush is a war criminal? What countrys legal code are we going by here? America's? North Korea's? A mistake maybe but he was legally entitled to do so and everythings been ratified

Three years ago all this Iraq basing might have been intresting - now, who cares? Let em get on with it - if Al Quaeda is happy enough to blow up mosques with thousands of US tropps about god knows what they'd do if they were to leave.

Like it or not, but basic human decency says if you make a mess - u clean it up
Logged

Quick! To the bandwagon!
Booker Floyd
Groupie
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 2309



« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2007, 11:11:28 AM »

1. Been into the future have we? Jim Crow would have told ya blacks would never vote in a US election....

Great point.  Its just like how war opponents in 2003 would have told you the Iraq invasion would be disastrous.  Others insisted that the invading forces would be greeted as liberators.  Youve chosen your camp apparently.
Logged
fuckin crazy
Banned
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2270


Social Democracy Now!!!


« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2007, 11:29:17 AM »

What bullshit.
1. Been into the future have we? Jim Crow ...

It only took 200 years. I agree with your conclusion, however, your premise is failing.

WTF, am I that drunk
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 11:32:58 AM by SLC's minion » Logged

i got lit last night, and I got lit the night before ... I'm drinkin' heavily and I will git lit some more
GeraldFord
Guest
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2007, 11:55:31 AM »

What bullshit.

(1) There will never be a Western-style Democracy in Iraq.
(2) The invasion was based on lies and deceit.
(3) George W. Bush is a war criminal.

 Roll Eyes

1. Been into the future have we? Jim Crow would have told ya blacks would never vote in a US election....

2. There were no lies and no deceit in the invasion, only the most morose thought this was anything but an attempt to get oil. You were ''decieved''? confused

3. Bush is a war criminal? What countrys legal code are we going by here? America's? North Korea's? A mistake maybe but he was legally entitled to do so and everythings been ratified

Three years ago all this Iraq basing might have been intresting - now, who cares? Let em get on with it - if Al Quaeda is happy enough to blow up mosques with thousands of US tropps about god knows what they'd do if they were to leave.

Like it or not, but basic human decency says if you make a mess - u clean it up

 There were no lies and no deceit leading up to? the invasion?

What color is the sky in the universe which you live? Also, might want to look up "morose" before you use it.

And everything Hitler did was also legal, by Nazi-Germany's laws.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 12:23:17 PM by RichardNixon » Logged
Izzy
Whine, moan, complain... Repeat
Legend
*****

Karma: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8688


More than meets the eye


« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2007, 12:38:48 PM »

There were no lies and no deceit leading up to? the invasion?

no - if u were stupid enough to believe this was a war for liberation or WMD's etc, thats your fault

Quote
And everything Hitler did was also legal, by Nazi-Germany's laws.


One of the fundamentals of justice is that it must not act retrospectively - you dont arrest people for things that werent crimes at the time they happened.

There isnt some superhuman 'lawl' that covers us all - yanks own guns, they'd get 5 years minimum over here for doing that - are all yanks criminals?

Moaning about Iraq (morose, eh?) is so very boring now - hasnt it already been said?

Iraq = bad, Bush = bad - most of us have GOT IT by now. Do you feel the need to endlessly say it just in case you forgot its still going on?

Personally the pure evil of a great many Iraqis is the real issue - not the half witted nature of US policy, Iraqis had, and squandered, the opportunity for a better life - blaming America for it all is so very boring now

Logged

Quick! To the bandwagon!
Izzy
Whine, moan, complain... Repeat
Legend
*****

Karma: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 8688


More than meets the eye


« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2007, 12:44:47 PM »

1. Been into the future have we? Jim Crow would have told ya blacks would never vote in a US election....

Great point.? Its just like how war opponents in 2003 would have told you the Iraq invasion would be disastrous.? Others insisted that the invading forces would be greeted as liberators.? Youve chosen your camp apparently.

oh shut it

I'm neither for or against the war - i honestly dont care, after so many years its old news, an old issue - and its all been said before

What I do take issue with is the absurd way people react to it - this bleeding heart defeatism or gung ho extremism - 'boo, America evil, they kill kittens! or 'more troops, death to Buddha, bomb Iran!'

There is a middle ground to be had which no one seems intrested in finding
Logged

Quick! To the bandwagon!
fuckin crazy
Banned
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2270


Social Democracy Now!!!


« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2007, 12:53:12 PM »



One of the fundamentals of justice is that it must not act retrospectively - you dont arrest people for things that werent crimes at the time they happened.

Dude, normally I agree with you, but applying that logic, the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal are null and void. Many Wermacht/SS soldiers could have claimed that ?defense, and they did, but they "swung by the rope" anyway. That is bullshit, if one is a Pig, one should swing.
Logged

i got lit last night, and I got lit the night before ... I'm drinkin' heavily and I will git lit some more
GeraldFord
Guest
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2007, 01:02:52 PM »

Quote
no - if u were stupid enough to believe this was a war for liberation or WMD's etc, thats your fault

So because Bush's lies were so severe and the American people should have seen right through it, they weren't really lies?

ahhh, okay... no
Logged
DevilHatesALoser
Guest
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2007, 01:32:38 PM »

Quote
no - if u were stupid enough to believe this was a war for liberation or WMD's etc, thats your fault

So because Bush's lies were so severe and the American people should have seen right through it, they weren't really lies?

ahhh, okay... no

Wasn't there an abudance of people claiming the war was about lies and no WMDs were in Iraq?  Weren't there congressman who voted against the war based on that premis.  I distinctly remember rallies and debates about this around the country.  Hell, I hosted a debate show in College and I had the leader of the anti-war network say everything in early 2003 that all of you claim now.  If you were deceived, you were lazy.

However, I believe intel stated that there were weapons there.  Bush was warned that the intel may be bad, but enough people (remember Colin Powell) thought it was strong enough to act upon. 

This is why a president can't run a war through a democracy.  People choose to be ignorant and go with the quick and easy choice.  People wanted to go to war with Iraq so we sent the troops over.  Now that the war isn't the hollywood movie most people thought, they want out.  Problem is you just can't cancel and quit a war like you would a baseball or football game due to lightning.

Continue to look at yourself as a victim if it makes you feel better, but no one has any excuse (sorry Hillary) or reason to claim they were misled.  People chose who they were gonna follow and on what criteria.  No one force them.
Logged
The Dog
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2131



« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2007, 01:47:43 PM »

in regards to the whole "you're lazy if you believed all the BS in 2003" nonsense.  I love how thats the rights new drum to beat on.  So its OUR fault for letting the war happen!?!?  rofl  Sounds like something Coulter or O'reily would say.  In other words, its fucking retarded.

its easy to look back 4 years later, but go back to the political climate at the time.  anyone who spoke out against the war hated america, didn't support the troops and was a huge bleeding heart liberal pussy.  Freedom fries anyone!!??!

Logged

"You're the worst character ever Towelie."
Booker Floyd
Groupie
Legend
*****

Karma: -1
Offline Offline

Posts: 2309



« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2007, 01:52:12 PM »

I'm neither for or against the war - i honestly dont care

Then perhaps you should heed your own words:

Quote
oh shut it

Quote
after so many years its old news, an old issue


Im sure the families of the thousands of dead troops and casualties will be delighted to hear this.

Quote
What I do take issue with is the absurd way people react to it - this bleeding heart defeatism or gung ho extremism - 'boo, America evil, they kill kittens! or 'more troops, death to Buddha, bomb Iran!'

Why?  Is it because you lack the intelligence or interest in developing an informed opinion and would rather do whats easy: spout lazy, apathetic cynicism?  You dont have to think or take a side, and you get to feel that youre above the fray when youre actually too slight to even approach it.

Quote
There is a middle ground to be had which no one seems intrested in finding

Quote
i honestly dont care

 ok
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.051 seconds with 19 queries.