Terror Plot in New York broken up by Feds

[SLCPUNK]

We're currently on threat level orange at me casa right now....

[freedom78]

you are so naive.

there is so much to tell you, i dont even know where to begin ...

rationality of actors in conflict? propaganda? relativism of religious messages? the political reality behind any irrational dialogs?

I'm curious what you have to say on these topics...particularly those I haven't struck through in my quote of your text (I've read your thoughts MANY times on propaganda!  ).  I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything...I really want to know your thoughts, especially on rationality in conflict!  From what you've written, I can't tell if you believe in rational theories of conflict or not.  And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "political reality behind any irrational dialogs."   

[freedom78]

We're currently on threat level orange at me casa right now....

Yeah, but that's because the administration knows that YOU'RE there! 

[SLCPUNK]

Yeah, but that's because the administration knows that YOU'RE there! 

Jarmo or Bush?

 

[freedom78]

Yeah, but that's because the administration knows that YOU'RE there! 

Jarmo or Bush?

 

That's cold blooded. 

[AxlsMainMan]

Strangly enough the CIA, military and the rest of the intelligence community were very reluctant to help. It almost seemed they didn't want him to get caught.

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

That amounts to no more money for vast military contracts, or for Bush' pocketbook.

I guarentee you Bin Laden is no doubt living quite comfortably in the United States.

Probably clean-shaven and well disguised amongst the masses.

[freedom78]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you? 

[AxlsMainMan]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you??

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

[sandman]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you??

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

A. you're wrong (at least not while bush is running things)

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism. you probably disagree with the approach, and haven't taken the time to understand what it is and how it can be effective. which is why someone like edwards can make assinine comments mocking it, and why the major democratic candidates barely mention fighting terrorism on their websites.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Here's the deal.  I'd definitely be considered left of middle on the political spectrum...but there's no way in hell I'd say the war on terrorism is over if we caught Bin Laden.  With all due respect to Axlsmainman who's a very nice guy, I think that's just wrong.  The real-life Jack Bauers, whether out in the field, or behind a computer screen are going to be needed to save our asses time and again.

On that note though, I still believe the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake.  The money would have been much better spent on covert ops, pin-point missile strikes on Al-Qaeda and associates, diplomacy/under-the-table-payoffs with nations we might not like very much, homeland security, etc. 

Where we used to have a check on Iranian dominance in the region in the form of Iran's enemy Saddam Hussein...we've tried to bring "democracy" to a land that doesn't understand the word.  Iraq has a majority Shia population that was held in check by Saddam.  We've effectively removed the Sunni Iraqi leader (Saddam) and tried to install democracy.  Guess who will win any election in Iraq?  When we leave (which eventually we'll have to) guess who will take power?  Nice move "W.!"     Every time I think about it, it's like a kick in the balls.   

[freedom78]

Here's the deal.  I'd definitely be considered left of middle on the political spectrum...but there's no way in hell I'd say the war on terrorism is over if we caught Bin Laden.  With all due respect to Axlsmainman who's a very nice guy, I think that's just wrong.  The real-life Jack Bauers, whether out in the field, or behind a computer screen are going to be needed to save our asses time and again.

On that note though, I still believe the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake.  The money would have been much better spent on covert ops, pin-point missile strikes on Al-Qaeda and associates, diplomacy/under-the-table-payoffs with nations we might not like very much, homeland security, etc. 

Where we used to have a check on Iranian dominance in the region in the form of Iran's enemy Saddam Hussein...we've tried to bring "democracy" to a land that doesn't understand the word.  Iraq has a majority Shia population that was held in check by Saddam.  We've effectively removed the Sunni Iraqi leader (Saddam) and tried to install democracy.  Guess who will win any election in Iraq?  When we leave (which eventually we'll have to) guess who will take power?  Nice move "W.!"     Every time I think about it, it's like a kick in the balls.   

I think the electoral problems that Iraq has will eventually resolve themselves.  Once they have a stable economy and whatnot, eventually members of all religious sects will realize that their interests aren't completely defined by sect.  Under Saddam, you were either in or out, based on sect.  That system will fade away. 

Think of it this way.  Imagine, in the US, that people voted for a party that represented, mostly, one racial group.  So, there's a white party (the biggest), a black party, a latino party...and so on.  Eventually, though, people aren't going to be satisfied with those parties.  The poor whites will be irritated when the rich whites use the party to help themselves, or whatever.  All I"m saying is that, in the long run (and for Iraq, this could be decades down the road) parties based on secular identities aren't going to be stable.  They may be so long as there's a violence problem...but once that ceases to be the MAIN issue in Iraq, once it's more about the economy, and workers' rights, or ANYTHING else, those parties will cease to be.  Of course...that brings up the possibility that violence may be used as a way to insulate those in power, which, of course, is what's occurring right now, in cases like Al-Sadr's militia, and so forth.  Don't get me wrong...it's not an easy path to tread, for Iraq, but I think that, if they don't fall back into authoritarianism, they'll eventually vote in the ways that people in democracies all over the world do, which is by beliefs about the role of government, and economic policy. 

[The Dog]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you? 

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

A. you're wrong (at least not while bush is running things)

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism.

yeah, those neo-cons REALLY know how to fight terror -- by creating MORE of it to fight!!!!  Lets invade another country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or terrorism around the globe! yeeeee-haaaawwww!!!

[sandman]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you??

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

A. you're wrong (at least not while bush is running things)

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism.

yeah, those neo-cons REALLY know how to fight terror -- by creating MORE of it to fight!!!!? Lets invade another country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or terrorism around the globe! yeeeee-haaaawwww!!!

sadly, you don't see the hypocrisy of your statement considering you supported the invasion of afghanistan.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Freedom, nice points.....but my money (and the smart money) is on a return to authoritarian rule. 

My post that attacked the folly of the Iraq invasion is worthless though because it happened and now we've got to figure out a way to muddle through the shit.  Our reputation is lower than low around the world and I'm sorry, the world is a big sandbox we all have to play in, and goddamit if we didn't lay a huge stinky log in the box.   

I hope it all works out, but damn, whoever is elected in 2008 has one hell of a problem on their hands thanks to W. 

Normally, I'm an optimist, but I just don't know how we are going to stop the civil war in Iraq.

Kudos to those who foiled the fucked-up plot in NYC.   

[freedom78]

Freedom, nice points.....but my money (and the smart money) is on a return to authoritarian rule. 

My post that attacked the folly of the Iraq invasion is worthless though because it happened and now we've got to figure out a way to muddle through the shit.  Our reputation is lower than low around the world and I'm sorry, the world is a big sandbox we all have to play in, and goddamit if we didn't lay a huge stinky log in the box.   

I hope it all works out, but damn, whoever is elected in 2008 has one hell of a problem on their hands thanks to W. 

Normally, I'm an optimist, but I just don't know how we are going to stop the civil war in Iraq.

Kudos to those who foiled the fucked-up plot in NYC.   

Your money may, indeed, be smart, unfortunately.  If there's one thing the neo-cons have proven very well, it's that democracy has to be homegrown.  Even if every Shia and Kurd in Iraq believed in the democracy, the fact that a substantial minority of the population (about 18-20% are Arab Sunnis) feels that losing an election means the the government is against them and, therefore, illegitimate, is quite a problem.

However, regarding 2008, no matter who is elected (even a Republican), they have the advantage of world opinion automatically rising, because the winner is NOT Bush.  That should allow for new dialogs on a number of world issues...somewhat of a fresh start, so to speak.  Even candidates who support the war have the advantage of NOT being the ones who led it down Fubar Avenue.

[AxlsMainMan]

I hope it all works out, but damn, whoever is elected in 2008 has one hell of a problem on their hands thanks to W.?

I cant even begin to imagine the amount of work the next President will have on his hands thanks to George.

[The Dog]

If Osama Bin Laden is caught, the War on Terrorism is over.

You don't really believe that, do you? 

Warmongers like Bush will always be elected, which often results in bullshit wars such as this one.

But yes, I truly believe that if Bin Laden were not still at large, the present War on Terrorism would not still be occuring.

A. you're wrong (at least not while bush is running things)

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism.

yeah, those neo-cons REALLY know how to fight terror -- by creating MORE of it to fight!!!!  Lets invade another country that had NOTHING to do with 9-11 or terrorism around the globe! yeeeee-haaaawwww!!!

sadly, you don't see the hypocrisy of your statement considering you supported the invasion of afghanistan.

explain to me what Iraq has to do with Afghanistan?  Then find one normal (not the left wing nut jobs) who didn't support going into afghanistan.

[SLCPUNK]

B. that's a fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives - how to fight terrorism.

Yes, we prefer to actually go after the terrorists.

sadly, you don't see the hypocrisy of your statement considering you supported the invasion of afghanistan.

Sadly you still don't have a clue of what the fuck you are talking about. Afghanistan had terrorists, while Iraq had a secular dictator who had nothing to do with 9-11.

explain to me what Iraq has to do with Afghanistan?  Then find one normal (not the left wing nut jobs) who didn't support going into afghanistan.

They have nothing to do with one another. Sandman is angry because Bush screwed him over like a chump-bigtime. Saying this bullshit is all he has left.

[sandman]

pakistan has terrorists, the UK has terrorists, germany has terrorists, the US has terrorists....

[stolat]

Australia has a dob in a terrorist hotline. The government issued us all with 'important numbers' fridge magnets.