Immigrants Sue Employer for Back Wages

[25]

Why give someone who broke the law a free pass at entry? (again I'd like to see how your fine plan works, and how they will pay)
As far as government spending... why increase it by flooding social welfare programs? I know I am paying taxes for the rest of my life, but why should it benefit people who are here illegally or were rewarded for comming illegally.

Why? To make them legal and therefore accountable. You prefer they remain illegal and unaccountable? That benefits you somehow?

Screw your taxes. Write to your congressman, seriously. I'm really, really not interested.

I am however interested in how deportation has proven itself to be an effective solution to illegal immigration. As well as what a good job our lawmen have done so far in identifying and deporting illegals as well as toughening up the borders. I'm ready to hear all about the successes, go! 

[25]

So fine them just to fine them, but make sure it doesn't burden them?? What good does that do??  Congratulations, you have now been raised from 2 dollars and hour to 5.15 an hour... but don't fret, you are only moderatly below the poverty line, so as soon as you can't pay for heat there is a program for that, and if you want to go to school... just go to any State run school.. don;t worry about it, we'll just get someone else to pay for it.. by they way we need to fine you, but we don;t want to make it tough on you, so pay what you can...

It should be a burden without being impossible to repay in their lifetimes. You could fine them a million dollars but I'm not sure that would achieve anything.

[C0ma]

Why? To make them legal and therefore accountable. You prefer they remain illegal and unaccountable? That benefits you somehow?

Screw your taxes. Write to your congressman, seriously. I'm really, really not interested.

I am however interested in how deportation has proven itself to be an effective solution to illegal immigration. As well as what a good job our lawmen have done so far in identifying and deporting illegals as well as toughening up the borders. I'm ready to hear all about the successes, go!?

First off I;m fine with what I pay for taxes, but why should it goe to the million or so people that you just want to deem citizens...

Second, as far as border security goes... we haven't been allowed to toughen the border. As soon as the fence gets brought up... It is either "Racist" or it is too close to the Horny Toad habitat...

[25]

First off I;m fine with what I pay for taxes, but why should it goe to the million or so people that you just want to deem citizens...

Second, as far as border security goes... we haven't been allowed to toughen the border. As soon as the fence gets brought up... It is either "Racist" or it is too close to the Horny Toad habitat...

So let me recap;
1) You're obsessed with your taxes.
2) No great success fighting illegal immigration by current methods.

Yep, got it.

[C0ma]

So let me recap;
1) You're obsessed with your taxes.
2) No great success fighting illegal immigration by current methods.

Yep, got it.

1.) I'm obsessed with making sure the money I do pay goes to legitiment programs benfiting other "Tax Paying Americans"

2.) There is a huge imigration issue, which could be limited by properly guarding our borders. Unfortunatly serveral groups want to do everything possible to protect the rights of people who don't belong here as well as protecting frogs and owls from the "dangerous" walls and fences instead of protecting our borders.

[Vicious Wishes]

First let me say, I appreciate this discussion staying on a level that doesn't involve name-calling and insults...

now,..'if we did choose to allow them to stay in the country and pay fines to remedy their indiscretions '...

that should be a country-wide decision, correct?

'people should have rights even if they break the law.'--granted, but does that mean that someone who's first act in this country was to break the law should have the same rights as someone who's played by the rules. Do we grant prisoners the same rights as someone who isn't ?imprisoned?

'If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along'--they don't have to play along..they're either in jail or deported

Believe it or not, I can actually sympathize with both sides of this issue, it's just very hard for me to side with someone whose very presence here is breaking the law.

[freedom78]

So let me recap;
1) You're obsessed with your taxes.
2) No great success fighting illegal immigration by current methods.

Yep, got it.

1.) I'm obsessed with making sure the money I do pay goes to legitiment programs benfiting other "Tax Paying Americans"

2.) There is a huge imigration issue, which could be limited by properly guarding our borders. Unfortunatly serveral groups want to do everything possible to protect the rights of people who don't belong here as well as protecting frogs and owls from the "dangerous" walls and fences instead of protecting our borders.

Since this is going in circles for the umpteenth time, how about some new blood.

In response to the above:

1.) There are BILLIONS of dollars spent every year by you and me, the US taxpayer, that are spent on non-Americans...and I don't mean illegal immigrants.  We send money everywhere.  So, the idea that illegals are getting a piece of some special "Americans only" pie isn't really true.

2.) The general argument over immigration is one taking place through rose-colored glasses. 

C0ma argues for the fence as a largely untested method of border control.  While true, I would question the ability of maintaining a border fence of that length.  They do, I'm assuming, have wire cutters in Mexico.

25 claims that, as all prior methods have failed, the solution is to fine illegals, and make them pay taxes.  Of course, this is a noble idea, assuming that illegals are willing to step forward and pay their fines.  But can you imagine any other system working like this?  If a driver didn't fill his/her parking meter, and the system in place asked that he/she  go to the local police station to pay a parking fine, how many times out of 10 do you think that would happen?  Oh...but there's an incentive!  IF you come in to pay your parking fines, we'll keep better track of you and make SURE you fill your meter every time, from now on, meaning that, basically, nothing in your life will change, except that you'll have less money.  Deal?   

[C0ma]

In response to the above:

1.) There are BILLIONS of dollars spent every year by you and me, the US taxpayer, that are spent on non-Americans...and I don't mean illegal immigrants.? We send money everywhere.? So, the idea that illegals are getting a piece of some special "Americans only" pie isn't really true.

2.) The general argument over immigration is one taking place through rose-colored glasses.?

C0ma argues for the fence as a largely untested method of border control.? While true, I would question the ability of maintaining a border fence of that length.? They do, I'm assuming, have wire cutters in Mexico.

25 claims that, as all prior methods have failed, the solution is to fine illegals, and make them pay taxes.? Of course, this is a noble idea, assuming that illegals are willing to step forward and pay their fines.? But can you imagine any other system working like this?? If a driver didn't fill his/her parking meter, and the system in place asked that he/she? go to the local police station to pay a parking fine, how many times out of 10 do you think that would happen?? Oh...but there's an incentive!? IF you come in to pay your parking fines, we'll keep better track of you and make SURE you fill your meter every time, from now on, meaning that, basically, nothing in your life will change, except that you'll have less money.? Deal?? ?

It is understood that tax revenues get distributed among several foreign and domestic programs, but, unleashing this many people into the US with limited income is going to add a HUGE burden on our domestic social programs. That is going to require either more money or for government to take money from their several pet projects... which do you think is going to happen?

As far as the fence/wall... sure it is unproven, but to dismiss it out hand is insane... I'd rather let it fail than not try and move forward with a plan to reward criminals by waving a magic wand over their head and making them legal.

[freedom78]

It is understood that tax revenues get distributed among several foreign and domestic programs, but, unleashing this many people into the US with limited income is going to add a HUGE burden on our domestic social programs. That is going to require either more money or for government to take money from their several pet projects... which do you think is going to happen?

My bet would be neither...they'll run up the debt with high deficits, while trying to avoid raising taxes so as to get re-elected.  Which is probably the worst option...

As far as the fence/wall... sure it is unproven, but to dismiss it out hand is insane... I'd rather let it fail than not try and move forward with a plan to reward criminals by waving a magic wand over their head and making them legal.

I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, but I'm not one for liking fences, in general.  What the government says is to keep the illegal immigrants out, now, can one day be used to keep someone else in, which is a frightening prospect. 

But that aside, once there are holes, which there will be, you're right back to the problem of trying to patrol a massive border. 

[C0ma]

But that aside, once there are holes, which there will be, you're right back to the problem of trying to patrol a massive border.?

I'd say those holes will be smaller than the ones in the system where illegals line up to pay their fine...
Also as far as holes, I don't think they are proposing Hawkeye Fence (Brockton, MA) install a 1400 mile long 6 foot high Chain link fence. Everything I've seen is more wall than fence (insert Berlin Wall comment here) which is what outrages environmentalists due to it's impact on frog migration. (I also think there is a possible related barn owl issue, but don't quote me)

[freedom78]

But that aside, once there are holes, which there will be, you're right back to the problem of trying to patrol a massive border. 

I'd say those holes will be smaller than the ones in the system where illegals line up to pay their fine...

Nice turn of phrase.  And you may be right.  As neither is proven, it's tough to say.  I want to be both practical and humane, and I don't think it's practical to say "Deport 'em all, and keep the others out." 

Also as far as holes, I don't think they are proposing Hawkeye Fence (Brockton, MA) install a 1400 mile long 6 foot high Chain link fence. Everything I've seen is more wall than fence (insert Berlin Wall comment here) which is what outrages environmentalists due to it's impact on frog migration. (I also think there is a possible related barn owl issue, but don't quote me)

Oh, I'm certain it's not the fence that keeps my dog from shitting in your yard.    But I'm very much against any Berlin Wall type of fortifications.  Keep in mind that that wall wasn't to keep Westerners out...

[SLCPUNK]

1. The hospital bill was just an example, but when a non-educated person enter this country and works his ass off, but isn't qualified to earn enough money to scrape by, they are going to turn to welfare.

2. I know that the largest problem are the employers hiring them, but the solution to the problem isn't jumping illegals to the begining of the line... they came illegally and stayed illegally, they should be punished. Obviously save the fines for the employers... but o me the only fair punishment is deportation.

1) That is simply not true. I see Mexicans who come here all the time (legally) and work 15 hours a day (two jobs) 6-7 days a week, and do just fine. They'll work construction during the day, then at a restaurant at night, they bust their ass when they come to this country simply because they are able to.

2) They both should be punished, but the punishment towards the employers should be the harshest.

[C0ma]

1. The hospital bill was just an example, but when a non-educated person enter this country and works his ass off, but isn't qualified to earn enough money to scrape by, they are going to turn to welfare.

2. I know that the largest problem are the employers hiring them, but the solution to the problem isn't jumping illegals to the begining of the line... they came illegally and stayed illegally, they should be punished. Obviously save the fines for the employers... but o me the only fair punishment is deportation.

1) That is simply not true. I see Mexicans who come here all the time (legally) and work 15 hours a day (two jobs) 6-7 days a week, and do just fine. They'll work construction during the day, then at a restaurant at night, they bust their ass when they come to this country simply because they are able to.

2) They both should be punished, but the punishment towards the employers should be the harshest.

I'm not saying that Mexicans are the total problem. I hate to sound like Reggie White... but "The Mexicans" are hard workers, and I understand that they do work insane hours at multiple jobs and do everything they can to get by. But there are more than a few who don't or they still can;t get together enough to live on, so they become dependent on things like assisted housing programs... yes they work their asses off, but their asses in most cases aren;t qulification enough to stay above the poverty line.

I agree that the company hiring should be punished the most severe... but my point is there is no good way penalize them (the illegal) with fines they either can't or won't pay, they are already here illegally, what is going to flip the swithch that says "Well I wasn't supposed to be here, and I came any way, but I really should pay the fine that I can't afford"

[C0ma]

Oh, I'm certain it's not the fence that keeps my dog from shitting in your yard.? ? But I'm very much against any Berlin Wall type of fortifications.? Keep in mind that that wall wasn't to keep Westerners out...

Have you been to Mexico recently? Outside of Cabo San Lucas, it should be illegal for Americans to travel there. If that wall stops my wife from hounding me to go to Playa Del Carmen once a year than it is worth it's wieght in gold. (just kidding)

[freedom78]

Oh, I'm certain it's not the fence that keeps my dog from shitting in your yard.    But I'm very much against any Berlin Wall type of fortifications.  Keep in mind that that wall wasn't to keep Westerners out...

Have you been to Mexico recently? Outside of Cabo San Lucas, it should be illegal from Americans to travel there. If that wall stops my wife from hounding m to go to Playa Del Carmen once a year than it is worth it's wieght in gold. (just kidding)

Not too recently.  It's been probably seven years, I'm guessing.  Maybe eight.  Back when they still allowed you to climb the pyramid at Chichen Itza.

[C0ma]

Nice turn of phrase.? And you may be right.? As neither is proven, it's tough to say.? I want to be both practical and humane, and I don't think it's practical to say "Deport 'em all, and keep the others out."?

My view has never been to just close the border "No more dirty Mexicans", I just want to see them make a legal stab at comming here from the get go. Not swim up the coast and run across Interstate 5 in SoCal (hoping motorists know what that funny "Danger Illegals crossing the highway" sign means) and then sort out how there staying here after the fact.

If you come here illegally go back and get at the back of the line and do it right next time.

[SLCPUNK]

But there are more than a few who don't or they still can;t get together enough to live on, so they become dependent on things like assisted housing programs... yes they work their asses off, but their asses in most cases aren;t qulification enough to stay above the poverty line.

I agree that the company hiring should be punished the most severe... but my point is there is no good way penalize them with fines they either can't or won't pay, they are already here illegally, what is going to flip the swithch that says "Well I wasn't supposed to be here, and I came any way, but I really should pay the fine that I can't afford"

1) I understand what you are saying, although don't agree with it. Mexican culture and respect for money is day and night compared to "white" America. They also tend to have more in a dwelling which cuts down on their expenses. Mexicans mostly buy "things" with cash, are amazing hagglers (while I respected Mexicans, I friggin hated dealing with them because they were hardcore bargainers, and I mean hardcore. I still admired them for it though, even though it was a PITA) The money they make they respect, and don't part easily with it. Based on my experience with this culture I find it extremely difficult to believe many would ever end up in the welfare line (any more than any other race.)

I read an article recently that pointed out that the majority of new millionaires in this country were not born here. For good reason: People who come here, especially from poor countries, bust their ass when they get here simply because they are able to. While many of us have become complacent with easy credit, pay later attitudes, poor savings and no respect of money or how it truly works. I'm not claiming Mexicans are the next waive of millionaires, but they do come to this country with that mindset (work and attitude towards capital.)

2) I agree, I don't think fining illegals make any sense.

[C0ma]

But there are more than a few who don't or they still can;t get together enough to live on, so they become dependent on things like assisted housing programs... yes they work their asses off, but their asses in most cases aren;t qulification enough to stay above the poverty line.

I agree that the company hiring should be punished the most severe... but my point is there is no good way penalize them with fines they either can't or won't pay, they are already here illegally, what is going to flip the swithch that says "Well I wasn't supposed to be here, and I came any way, but I really should pay the fine that I can't afford"

1) I understand what you are saying, although don't agree with it. Mexican culture and respect for money is day and night compared to "white" America. They also tend to have more in a dwelling which cuts down on their expenses. Mexicans mostly buy "things" with cash, are amazing hagglers (while I respected Mexicans, I friggin hated dealing with them because they were hardcore bargainers, and I mean hardcore. I still admired them for it though, even though it was a PITA) The money they make they respect, and don't part easily with it. Based on my experience with this culture I find it extremely difficult to believe many would ever end up in the welfare line (any more than any other race.) I read an article recently that pointed out that the majority of new millionaires in this country were not born here. For good reason: People who come here, especially from poor countries, bust their ass when they get here simply because they are able to. While many of us have become complacent with easy credit, pay later attitudes, poor savings and no respect of money or who it truly works. I'm not claiming Mexicans are the next waive of millionaires, but they do come to this country with that mindset (work and attitude towards capital.)

I guess my biggest point is I'm not pinning this issue on Mexicans, while thats where they are crossing from. They aren't all Mexican, and don;t share the same engrained work ethic. We have a huge Hispanic Population up here in MA (Brockton MA for some reason is like Aspen to these people (and Brockton has been a shithole since Rocky Marciano retired)) they tend to run at a slightly lower speed than Mexicans (or so it seems) based on what I see every day. That city barely stays afloat after all it does for (education (special ed/ESL), healthcare, housing, etc...) sure they get money from the state to help, but there is only so much to go around.

[SLCPUNK]

It is quite the conundrum that's for damn sure.

[freedom78]

I still think the solution has to be a Mexican one.  The reason for illegal immigration, here, is the same for their emigration, there...it's just better to live and work here!  As long as that's the case by such a large margin, this will be a problem.  When the Mexican standard of living and wages start to close on ours, the problem will diminish.