Immigrants Sue Employer for Back Wages

[25]

I'm not asking what former Nazi's should do.... What I'm saying is you are holding the entire US responsible for wiping out millions of Native Americans, and saying that because of that we should turn a blind eye towards Imigration.
If thats your argument, what laws should Germany pay no attention to because of something that happened in the 40's about 150 to 250 years after what you are holding the US responsible for.

As I already said, I'm not connecting the issues of genocide and immigration. I brought up the indians to amuse myself, to put your shock(!) and outrage(!) over immigration in comical perspective.

[25]

^ Citizens do break the law every day, and if they're caught, they pay the penalty; either by a fine or by jail time. Shouldn't that be the same for everyone?

Absolutely. Should work both ways.

[Vicious Wishes]

^ Citizens do break the law every day, and if they're caught, they pay the penalty; either by a fine or by jail time. Shouldn't that be the same for everyone?

Absolutely. Should work both ways.

So do you believe illegal immigrants should be deported, and not be afforded any American rights, since they're not legally Americans?

[25]

So do you believe illegal immigrants should be deported, and not be afforded any American rights, since they're not legally Americans?

No. I think they should be made to pay some big fines, garnished from their newly-legal wages and made to apply for work-based permits to remain in the country. And those who were employing them beforehand should be fined for the indiscretion and investigated further. And then fined some more.

Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless. Once you allow an exception you're opening the door to further twisting of the law. And given that immigration law changes vastly over short periods of time it would be ridiculous to recommend the harshest possible enforcement of the rules when the rules will be different or non-existent down the road.  Can you justify both deporting illegals and the green-card lottery? Is immigration something that needs to be tightly restricted or something given away to lucky applicants depending on their country of origin? It sure as hell can't be both. 

[SLCPUNK]

The employers should be shut down.

Period.

[C0ma]

That's all well and good... but right now I pay enough taxes. If we did what you are proposing and let anyone who could apply (regrdless of financial standing) into the country, the first place most of them would go would be to the window where they sign up to recieve free money on the 1st anf 15th of the month. Who pays into those programs?

Make your mind up, are they all on welfare or stealing your jobs? And how are they getting welfare without social security numbers? Seems like a failing of administration.

All of the money you pay into social security is going to other people, you'll never see a penny of it back. Hopefully the next generation won't scuttle the program and leave you without welfare in your old age but I have a feeling that they'll do just that and you'll be cheering them on while they do it. I have no proof of that last part though, rather like you have no proof that Mexicans are jumping the border to take advantage of your rather crappy welfare system. But we can both jump to conclusions on topics unrelated to reality all day long.

Welfare isn't SSI... and I'm not the one proposing letting them into the country with free passes...You are.
Once they get here, you know they are going to depend on us for plenty of government services.

[SLCPUNK]

Once they get here, you know they are going to depend on us for plenty of government services.

Once legal or illegal Mexicans get here?

[C0ma]

No. I think they should be made to pay some big fines, garnished from their newly-legal wages and made to apply for work-based permits to remain in the country. And those who were employing them beforehand should be fined for the indiscretion and investigated further. And then fined some more.

Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless. Once you allow an exception you're opening the door to further twisting of the law. And given that immigration law changes vastly over short periods of time it would be ridiculous to recommend the harshest possible enforcement of the rules when the rules will be different or non-existent down the road.? Can you justify both deporting illegals and the green-card lottery? Is immigration something that needs to be tightly restricted or something given away to lucky applicants depending on their country of origin? It sure as hell can't be both.?

Big fine.?. some of them are picking oranges for less in a week than I make in an hour. How are they paying these fines?

As far as extending rights, they are extended to tax paying citizens of the United States. Just because you can swim acrossa river, slide under a fence, or engineer a boat out of a bath tub doesn't give you the rights that I have earned by years of playing by the rules.

[C0ma]

Once they get here, you know they are going to depend on us for plenty of government services.

Once legal or illegal Mexicans get here?

As of right now both. If an illegal shows up at a hospital right now (or someone on a work Visa), they are treated and then handled later. Who pays that bill?

[Vicious Wishes]

So do you believe illegal immigrants should be deported, and not be afforded any American rights, since they're not legally Americans?

No. I think they should be made to pay some big fines, garnished from their newly-legal wages and made to apply for work-based permits to remain in the country. And those who were employing them beforehand should be fined for the indiscretion and investigated further. And then fined some more.

Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless. Once you allow an exception you're opening the door to further twisting of the law. And given that immigration law changes vastly over short periods of time it would be ridiculous to recommend the harshest possible enforcement of the rules when the rules will be different or non-existent down the road.? Can you justify both deporting illegals and the green-card lottery? Is immigration something that needs to be tightly restricted or something given away to lucky applicants depending on their country of origin? It sure as hell can't be both.?

A few questions,...first, you say their newly-legal wages,.. why are they newly-legal, simply because they're here, legally or not?

I agree that their employers should also be penalized, drastically, because they're basically practising in slave labor, in one form or another. If need be, shut them down and jail them.

"Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless."--Again, does that mean whether you broke the law (entering the country illegally, stealing someone else's ss#, etc.), or not?

Should we at least try and respect the rule of law, or not?

If you say it's the latter, because 'they're only trying to better their situation', does that mean that I can break whatever law I want to, to 'better my situation'?

[25]

Once they get here, you know they are going to depend on us for plenty of government services.

Yeah, I'm sure that providing government services is just back-breaking work for "us" as it is. I'd advise you to let the government worry about providing government services (if they do get around to providing some any time soon).

Let's look at a few other, more important concerns;
1) Over-population: This country has expanded so rapidly in such a short time that if I had to guess I'd say that the country is at nearly 1/10th capacity as it is. If immigration is made simpler or easier we should all start to worry about pushing that 2/10ths  barrier within a scant couple of centuries.
2) Employment: Nary a day goes by when employers aren't reduced to the internet and newspapers as last-ditch attempts to fill positions. Apparently, there aren't enough illegals to steal all the jobs that Americans don't want. If we allow immigration to become any easier employers are going to be in the perilous position of having full staff rosters.
3) Economy: Our grand corporations seemingly provide fewer goods and services than ever while posting record profits. If we increase the number of people living and working in this country legally there's a very real danger that demand would increase and companies would sell more of almost everything (border slingshots excepted) which would mean that after a slight lag in meeting the demand while they invest in increasing production the many and varied industries of this country could be drowned in a deluge of bank notes. Even without raising taxes, this might mean an incredible increase in the government's budget allowing them to spend money on things other than space-age rod-dropping satellites and missile defense plans which have no guidance systems. This is the number one threat to America; The broadening of our social and political horizons combined with the strengthening of industry and a solid economy is just the kind of combination of circumstances which forces scary things like change and progress. Granted, a lot of things would have to go right for those circumstances to come to fruition in our lifetimes but still, it's a risk we can't afford to take!

[SLCPUNK]

So you are referencing hospital bills rather than general welfare assistance...

That's one thing, but I can't imagine any Mexican, legal or illegal, not working for their money. They are some of the hardest working people I have ever met in my life.

People are misdirecting their anger in this country I think. Employers who hire these people also keep the flow of illegals constant. It's a bullshit mixed message man. On one hand it's "against the law", on the other hand once they get here they are rewarded with more work than they could ever imagine, rent them a place to live, and sell them a vehicle. Who wouldn't come here? In order to turn off the spigot you have to cut off the work. There should be harsh sentences for the companies who hire and exploit these workers.

[C0ma]

Yeah, I'm sure that providing government services is just back-breaking work for "us" as it is. I'd advise you to let the government worry about providing government services (if they do get around to providing some any time soon).

Ted Kennedy isn't exactly paying for these programs out of his pocket....I do (all tax payers do). Why should a portion af my salary (even as little as a penny) get spent supporting a group of people who are here illegally (or aren't paying into these programs)

[C0ma]

So you are referencing hospital bills rather than general welfare assistance...

That's one thing, but I can't imagine any Mexican, legal or illegal, not working for their money. They are some of the hardest working people I have ever met in my life.

People are misdirecting their anger in this country I think. Employers who hire these people also keep the flow of illegals constant. It's a bullshit mixed message man. On one hand it's "against the law", on the other hand once they get here they are rewarded with more work than they could ever imagine, rent them a place to live, and sell them a vehicle. Who wouldn't come here? In order to turn off the spigot you have to cut off the work. There should be harsh sentences for the companies who hire and exploit these workers.

1. The hospital bill was just an example, but when a non-educated person enter this country and works his ass off, but isn't qualified to earn enough money to scrape by, they are going to turn to welfare.

2. I know that the largest problem are the employers hiring them, but the solution to the problem isn't jumping illegals to the begining of the line... they came illegally and stayed illegally, they should be punished. Obviously save the fines for the employers... but o me the only fair punishment is deportation.

[25]

A few questions,...first, you say their newly-legal wages,.. why are they newly-legal, simply because they're here, legally or not?

I agree that their employers should also be penalized, drastically, because they're basically practising in slave labor, in one form or another. If need be, shut them down and jail them.

"Either your rights extend to all within your borders or they're meaningless."--Again, does that mean whether you broke the law (entering the country illegally, stealing someone else's ss#, etc.), or not?

Should we at least try and respect the rule of law, or not?

If you say it's the latter, because 'they're only trying to better their situation', does that mean that I can break whatever law I want to, to 'better my situation'?

They would be newly-legal because if we did choose to allow them to stay in the country and pay fines to remedy their indiscretions we would probably need to give them temporary worker status to retain their jobs while we're garnishing their wages and making them apply for a more permanent visa. Otherwise it wouldn't really be possible for them to pay your fines, would it?

Yes, people should have rights even if they break the law. The question isn't respecting the rule of law but making punishments fit the crime. If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along, are they? On the other hand, enforce fines and give them the opportunity to rectify both their crimes and their legal status and a much higher percentage of them are going to take that option, especially as they'd have a good chance benefiting from it eventually.

I don't recall saying what you quoted in your last point but it's relatively true. Even so, there's a vast difference between breaking a law that you need to in order to improve your situation and, say, shooting the neighbor dead because he plays shitty music too loud. And there's the question of the effects of breaking the law - using someone else's social security number to work is one thing, using their social security number to fraudulently run up thousands of dollars of purchases on credit is another.   

[C0ma]

Yes, people should have rights even if they break the law. The question isn't respecting the rule of law but making punishments fit the crime. If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along, are they? On the other hand, enforce fines and give them the opportunity to rectify both their crimes and their legal status and a much higher percentage of them are going to take that option, especially as they'd have a good chance benefiting from it eventually.

If I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail for murder 1, guess what, I'm not going to plan and commit a murder.If they don;t want to be deported for being here illegally, then don't come illegally. If you want to be here legally then go thru the proper channels in the first place.

Is it that hard to follow the rules?

Again I ask you, how are they paying these fines? they are going to sky rocket from 2 dollars an hour mowing lawns to 5.15 cleaning dishes. at that rate I'd have trouble paying a public library late fee, never mind a fine for entering the country illegally

[25]

Yeah, I'm sure that providing government services is just back-breaking work for "us" as it is. I'd advise you to let the government worry about providing government services (if they do get around to providing some any time soon).

Ted Kennedy isn't exactly paying for these programs out of his pocket....I do (all tax payers do). Why should a portion af my salary (even as little as a penny) get spent supporting a group of people who are here illegally (or aren't paying into these programs)

We can all argue about our disagreements with government spending but they're going to tax you regardless of whether you like it or not. Regardless, I'm not interested in discussing the personal financial cost of illegals and its ramifications on your wallet. We were discussing making immigration easier and finding a way for illegals to become legal, neither of which relates to your concern about your governments spending habits.

[C0ma]

Yeah, I'm sure that providing government services is just back-breaking work for "us" as it is. I'd advise you to let the government worry about providing government services (if they do get around to providing some any time soon).

Ted Kennedy isn't exactly paying for these programs out of his pocket....I do (all tax payers do). Why should a portion af my salary (even as little as a penny) get spent supporting a group of people who are here illegally (or aren't paying into these programs)

We can all argue about our disagreements with government spending but they're going to tax you regardless of whether you like it or not. Regardless, I'm not interested in discussing the personal financial cost of illegals and its ramifications on your wallet. We were discussing making immigration easier and finding a way for illegals to become legal, neither of which relates to your concern about your governments spending habits.

Why give someone who broke the law a free pass at entry? (again I'd like to see how your fine plan works, and how they will pay)
As far as government spending... why increase it by flooding social welfare programs? I know I am paying taxes for the rest of my life, but why should it benefit people who are here illegally or were rewarded for comming illegally.

[25]

Yes, people should have rights even if they break the law. The question isn't respecting the rule of law but making punishments fit the crime. If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along, are they? On the other hand, enforce fines and give them the opportunity to rectify both their crimes and their legal status and a much higher percentage of them are going to take that option, especially as they'd have a good chance benefiting from it eventually.

If I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail for murder 1, guess what, I'm not going to plan and commit a murder.If they don;t want to be deported for being here illegally, then don't come illegally. If you want to be here legally then go thru the proper channels in the first place.

Is it that hard to follow the rules?

Again I ask you, how are they paying these fines? they are going to sky rocket from 2 dollars an hour mowing lawns to 5.15 cleaning dishes. at that rate I'd have trouble paying a public library late fee, never mind a fine for entering the country illegally

They're going to pay the fines by working. They are going to work by keeping the jobs they're illegally working now. They're going to be able to afford the fines because they will be paid the legal minimum wage and garnished according to their means. The fines would also have to be appropriate, rather than prohibitive.

You can deport people but it simply doesn't solve the problem. We have deportation right now and we have as much illegal immigration as at any other time, doesn't that tell you something?

[C0ma]

Yes, people should have rights even if they break the law. The question isn't respecting the rule of law but making punishments fit the crime. If you insist you're going to deport or jail someone for entering the country illegally they aren't likely to play along, are they? On the other hand, enforce fines and give them the opportunity to rectify both their crimes and their legal status and a much higher percentage of them are going to take that option, especially as they'd have a good chance benefiting from it eventually.

If I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail for murder 1, guess what, I'm not going to plan and commit a murder.If they don;t want to be deported for being here illegally, then don't come illegally. If you want to be here legally then go thru the proper channels in the first place.

Is it that hard to follow the rules?

Again I ask you, how are they paying these fines? they are going to sky rocket from 2 dollars an hour mowing lawns to 5.15 cleaning dishes. at that rate I'd have trouble paying a public library late fee, never mind a fine for entering the country illegally

They're going to pay the fines by working. They are going to work by keeping the jobs they're illegally working now. They're going to be able to afford the fines because they will be paid the legal minimum wage and garnished according to their means. The fines would also have to be appropriate, rather than prohibitive.

You can deport people but it simply doesn't solve the problem. We have deportation right now and we have as much illegal immigration as at any other time, doesn't that tell you something?

So fine them just to fine them, but make sure it doesn't burden them?? What good does that do??? Congratulations, you have now been raised from 2 dollars and hour to 5.15 an hour... but don't fret, you are only moderatly below the poverty line, so as soon as you can't pay for heat there is a program for that, and if you want to go to school... just go to any State run school.. don;t worry about it, we'll just get someone else to pay for it.. by they way we need to fine you, but we don;t want to make it tough on you, so pay what you can... Also now that we are expecting you to pay that fine, we'll understand it if you decide not to speak the offical language of the US... so don't worry about learning english (but stay away from the asshole with the Cheese steak stand in Philly (sorry old joke))