NFL 2007 Season - Discuss it all here

[faldor]

Teams steal signs all the time.  There's a whole lot of cheating going on in the world of sports.  And I'd be willing to bet that the best teams are the best cheaters.  The problem is they took it a little too far, if it holds up to be true.  Video taping a team is a bit different than just looking over and trying to react on the fly. 

[tim_m]

Teams steal signs all the time.  There's a whole lot of cheating going on in the world of sports.  And I'd be willing to bet that the best teams are the best cheaters.  The problem is they took it a little too far, if it holds up to be true.  Video taping a team is a bit different than just looking over and trying to react on the fly. 

Exactly just watching the coordinators and trying to pick it up is one thing. Videotaping them with the explicit intent of figuring out what they're calling is wrong. Thats going too far and lets face it the patriots don't need to do this. They have a better team then my jets and could've beaten them without trying to cheat. If this ends up proven to be true. I hope using it to beat a team that might not even make the playoffs is worth losing draft picks.

[freedom78]

Teams steal signs all the time.  There's a whole lot of cheating going on in the world of sports.  And I'd be willing to bet that the best teams are the best cheaters.  The problem is they took it a little too far, if it holds up to be true.  Video taping a team is a bit different than just looking over and trying to react on the fly. 

Exactly just watching the coordinators and trying to pick it up is one thing. Videotaping them with the explicit intent of figuring out what they're calling is wrong. Thats going too far and lets face it the patriots don't need to do this. They have a better team then my jets and could've beaten them without trying to cheat. If this ends up proven to be true. I hope using it to beat a team that might not even make the playoffs is worth losing draft picks.

I think forcing them to do an Abu-Ghraib style naked pyramid, while Mangini stands to the side giving a big  would be appropriate and suitable punishment.

Oh...and confiscate Bill's hoodies. 

[tim_m]

Teams steal signs all the time.  There's a whole lot of cheating going on in the world of sports.  And I'd be willing to bet that the best teams are the best cheaters.  The problem is they took it a little too far, if it holds up to be true.  Video taping a team is a bit different than just looking over and trying to react on the fly. 

Exactly just watching the coordinators and trying to pick it up is one thing. Videotaping them with the explicit intent of figuring out what they're calling is wrong. Thats going too far and lets face it the patriots don't need to do this. They have a better team then my jets and could've beaten them without trying to cheat. If this ends up proven to be true. I hope using it to beat a team that might not even make the playoffs is worth losing draft picks.

I think forcing them to do an Abu-Ghraib style naked pyramid, while Mangini stands to the side giving a big  would be appropriate and suitable punishment.

Oh...and confiscate Bill's hoodies. 

Hahaha that would be funny.

[C0ma]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, but for instance, the Clevland Browns could have been given the Steelers Playbook and a script of the first twenty plays and they couldn't have stopped them because they are that bad. You still have to execute...

Randy Moss also didn't make a 51 yard Touchdown catch in triple coverage because he knew their protections.

Oh, there's no question they're better than the Jets, and knowing a defensive scheme is less likely to net you a clear advantage than knowing an offensive play.? After all, if you know the exact route that will be run by a receiver, for example, you can undercut the route and get a pick more often than you normally would.?

Signal stealing or not they were the best team on that field Sunday, and for fifteen more games, they will field the better team on that day as well.

YAWN.?

You can YAWN all you want. when the hang 40+ on San Diego (while holding them to 10-13) keep Yawning...

[freedom78]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, but for instance, the Clevland Browns could have been given the Steelers Playbook and a script of the first twenty plays and they couldn't have stopped them because they are that bad. You still have to execute...

Randy Moss also didn't make a 51 yard Touchdown catch in triple coverage because he knew their protections.

Oh, there's no question they're better than the Jets, and knowing a defensive scheme is less likely to net you a clear advantage than knowing an offensive play.  After all, if you know the exact route that will be run by a receiver, for example, you can undercut the route and get a pick more often than you normally would. 

Signal stealing or not they were the best team on that field Sunday, and for fifteen more games, they will field the better team on that day as well.

YAWN. 

You can YAWN all you want. when the hang 40+ on San Diego (while holding them to 10-13) keep Yawning...

You just predicted them to run the table so, yes, I'm yawning.  Yawning because the New England arrogance has gotten so very, very stale. 

[faldor]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, but for instance, the Clevland Browns could have been given the Steelers Playbook and a script of the first twenty plays and they couldn't have stopped them because they are that bad. You still have to execute...

Randy Moss also didn't make a 51 yard Touchdown catch in triple coverage because he knew their protections.

Oh, there's no question they're better than the Jets, and knowing a defensive scheme is less likely to net you a clear advantage than knowing an offensive play.? After all, if you know the exact route that will be run by a receiver, for example, you can undercut the route and get a pick more often than you normally would.?

Signal stealing or not they were the best team on that field Sunday, and for fifteen more games, they will field the better team on that day as well.

YAWN.?

You can YAWN all you want. when the hang 40+ on San Diego (while holding them to 10-13) keep Yawning...

You just predicted them to run the table so, yes, I'm yawning.? Yawning because the New England arrogance has gotten so very, very stale.?

First off I'm a Pats fan and you can't blame us for being arrogant with all the off-season moves and how good they looked on Sunday against their division rival.  With that being said, New England has a real tough schedule this year (5th toughest in the league), as good as they are I'm sure they'll have some slipups along the way.  They have a lot of tough road games and the competition in the AFC is quite tough.  I have full confidence that they have the ability to win the Super Bowl this year but they've had some rough off field things going on to start the season.  First losing Rodney and Seymour for the first 4 and 6 games respectively and now this video tape thing.  Hopefully they can stay focussed on the task at hand with LT coming to Gilette this Sunday night.

[C0ma]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference, but for instance, the Clevland Browns could have been given the Steelers Playbook and a script of the first twenty plays and they couldn't have stopped them because they are that bad. You still have to execute...

Randy Moss also didn't make a 51 yard Touchdown catch in triple coverage because he knew their protections.

Oh, there's no question they're better than the Jets, and knowing a defensive scheme is less likely to net you a clear advantage than knowing an offensive play.? After all, if you know the exact route that will be run by a receiver, for example, you can undercut the route and get a pick more often than you normally would.?

Signal stealing or not they were the best team on that field Sunday, and for fifteen more games, they will field the better team on that day as well.

YAWN.?

You can YAWN all you want. when the hang 40+ on San Diego (while holding them to 10-13) keep Yawning...

You just predicted them to run the table so, yes, I'm yawning.? Yawning because the New England arrogance has gotten so very, very stale.?

I didn't say they would run the table. I said they would be the better team on the field for the next 15 games... But to go 16-0 takes luck ... footballs bounce funny.

[Drew]

I was happy to see Brett Favre and the Packers beat McNabb on opening weekend. 

[freedom78]

Steelers say Belichick's been spying for years
Ward says Pats ?knew a lot of our calls? during 2002 AFC title game

Wide receiver Hines Ward suspects the New England Patriots may have had some type of inside information on the Pittsburgh Steelers before at least one of the teams? two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season.

Ward is certain the Patriots, while known for the thoroughness of their scouting under coach Bill Belichick, had some kind of unusual help before their 24-17 upset victory in Pittsburgh in the January 2002 AFC championship game. The Patriots went on to win the first of their three Super Bowls.

?Oh, they knew,? Ward said Wednesday. ?They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There?s no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff.?

NFL security officers confiscated a video camera and tape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was working on the New York Jets? sideline during New England?s 38-14 victory on Sunday. The league has confirmed that it is investigating whether the Patriots were taping the Jets? defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.

On Tuesday, Steelers first-year coach Mike Tomlin, who wasn?t around for those AFC championship games, said ?when there?s smoke, there?s fire? of widespread suspicion some NFL teams use spying tactics.

The Patriots also beat the Steelers 41-27 in the January 2005 AFC championship game, though that victory was so convincing it would be difficult to pin it on cheating.

Still, Ward said he is disappointed there are allegations that any NFL team may have resorted to spying to gain an edge.

?You would hope that, during their run, when they were winning all their (three) Super Bowls, all that stuff wasn?t going on,? Ward said. ?You look back in the past, and we played them in the championship games, and you kind of wonder. It seemed like they were a step ahead of us at all times, but those games are behind us. There?s nothing we can do about it. You just look forward and see what the commissioner (Roger Goodell) will do.?

Ward said any team caught spying should give up high draft picks.

?It?s really hard to say (they should) forfeit games,? Ward said. ?Draft picks would hurt a lot of teams; take away their first or second-round pick ? that would be a stiff penalty to make sure nobody does it again.?

Steelers cornerback Deshea Townsend also felt suspicious, if only for one play he didn?t identify, during one of the AFC title games.

That led quarterback Ben Roethlisberger to joke, ?If they cheated during our AFC championship game (in 2005), so we should get a Super Bowl ring.?

Roethlisberger has given little thought to the possibility the Patriots may have had an unfair advantage against Pittsburgh.

?No, it?s actually the farthest thing from my mind. I don?t think it?s been in the front of too many people?s mind,? he said.

Pro Bowl nose tackle Casey Hampton also downplayed the cheating talk, saying scouting is so through in the NFL that it?s difficult to fool any team.

?In this league, everybody knows what everybody?s going to run. It?s just a matter of stopping it,? he said. ?The bottom line is you watch enough film and you know where guys are and where they?re coming from.?

Dick Hoak, the NFL?s most tenured assistant coach before retiring this year after 35 seasons, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the Steelers once received a suspicious video tape by mistake from an opposing team during a routine tape exchange.

The tape focused on a coach making hand signals from the sideline, Hoak said, but the Steelers did not report the tape to the NFL.

The Post-Gazette also reported that Belichick has used cameras from the sidelines for years, even when he was the coach of the Cleveland Browns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20748384/
************************************************

More allegations against Bill Belicheat.   

I DO love that they call the man a "genius," yet his excuse is that he misinterpreted the rule. 

[tim_m]

I hope Goodell comes down HARD. I'd like to see bill suspended personally and lose draft picks.

[faldor]

Steelers say Belichick's been spying for years
Ward says Pats ?knew a lot of our calls? during 2002 AFC title game

Wide receiver Hines Ward suspects the New England Patriots may have had some type of inside information on the Pittsburgh Steelers before at least one of the teams? two AFC championship game matchups since the 2001 season.

Ward is certain the Patriots, while known for the thoroughness of their scouting under coach Bill Belichick, had some kind of unusual help before their 24-17 upset victory in Pittsburgh in the January 2002 AFC championship game. The Patriots went on to win the first of their three Super Bowls.

?Oh, they knew,? Ward said Wednesday. ?They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There?s no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff.?

NFL security officers confiscated a video camera and tape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella while he was working on the New York Jets? sideline during New England?s 38-14 victory on Sunday. The league has confirmed that it is investigating whether the Patriots were taping the Jets? defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.

On Tuesday, Steelers first-year coach Mike Tomlin, who wasn?t around for those AFC championship games, said ?when there?s smoke, there?s fire? of widespread suspicion some NFL teams use spying tactics.

The Patriots also beat the Steelers 41-27 in the January 2005 AFC championship game, though that victory was so convincing it would be difficult to pin it on cheating.

Still, Ward said he is disappointed there are allegations that any NFL team may have resorted to spying to gain an edge.

?You would hope that, during their run, when they were winning all their (three) Super Bowls, all that stuff wasn?t going on,? Ward said. ?You look back in the past, and we played them in the championship games, and you kind of wonder. It seemed like they were a step ahead of us at all times, but those games are behind us. There?s nothing we can do about it. You just look forward and see what the commissioner (Roger Goodell) will do.?

Ward said any team caught spying should give up high draft picks.

?It?s really hard to say (they should) forfeit games,? Ward said. ?Draft picks would hurt a lot of teams; take away their first or second-round pick ? that would be a stiff penalty to make sure nobody does it again.?

Steelers cornerback Deshea Townsend also felt suspicious, if only for one play he didn?t identify, during one of the AFC title games.

That led quarterback Ben Roethlisberger to joke, ?If they cheated during our AFC championship game (in 2005), so we should get a Super Bowl ring.?

Roethlisberger has given little thought to the possibility the Patriots may have had an unfair advantage against Pittsburgh.

?No, it?s actually the farthest thing from my mind. I don?t think it?s been in the front of too many people?s mind,? he said.

Pro Bowl nose tackle Casey Hampton also downplayed the cheating talk, saying scouting is so through in the NFL that it?s difficult to fool any team.

?In this league, everybody knows what everybody?s going to run. It?s just a matter of stopping it,? he said. ?The bottom line is you watch enough film and you know where guys are and where they?re coming from.?

Dick Hoak, the NFL?s most tenured assistant coach before retiring this year after 35 seasons, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette the Steelers once received a suspicious video tape by mistake from an opposing team during a routine tape exchange.

The tape focused on a coach making hand signals from the sideline, Hoak said, but the Steelers did not report the tape to the NFL.

The Post-Gazette also reported that Belichick has used cameras from the sidelines for years, even when he was the coach of the Cleveland Browns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20748384/
************************************************

More allegations against Bill Belicheat.? ?

I DO love that they call the man a "genius," yet his excuse is that he misinterpreted the rule.?

Okay, I understand the backlash and criticism that the Pats are gonna take here.  It's well deserved.  They're good, and now they've been caught "cheating".  It's like the Yankees with Giambi and Sheffield juicing.  I realize they're not the only ones, but Bonds, Sosa, etc. weren't on playoff teams.  But let me just say to Mr. Hines Ward.  The Pats could've "cheated" all they wanted.  Was it "cheating" when Troy Brown returned a punt for a TD in the 2002 AFC championship game?  How about when they blocked a field goal and returned that for a TD, was that cheating?  And how about when Tom Brady went down with an injury and Drew Bledsoe stepped in and aptly threw a touchdown pass to David Patten in the back of the endzone?  Was that cheating?  Look, you always try to get an edge up on your opponent but you still have to execute.  Everyone is gonna try and demean what the Patriots have accomplished now and I just think that's going a little far.  But again, they put themselves in this mess so they'll have to deal with that.

[freedom78]

Okay, I understand the backlash and criticism that the Pats are gonna take here.  It's well deserved.  They're good, and now they've been caught "cheating".  It's like the Yankees with Giambi and Sheffield juicing.  I realize they're not the only ones, but Bonds, Sosa, etc. weren't on playoff teams.  But let me just say to Mr. Hines Ward.  The Pats could've "cheated" all they wanted.  Was it "cheating" when Troy Brown returned a punt for a TD in the 2002 AFC championship game?  How about when they blocked a field goal and returned that for a TD, was that cheating?  And how about when Tom Brady went down with an injury and Drew Bledsoe stepped in and aptly threw a touchdown pass to David Patten in the back of the endzone?  Was that cheating?  Look, you always try to get an edge up on your opponent but you still have to execute.  Everyone is gonna try and demean what the Patriots have accomplished now and I just think that's going a little far.  But again, they put themselves in this mess so they'll have to deal with that.

The real question is why (seriously, why?) against the Jets?  They're far more talented than the Jets, so they don't need to, and Mangini, as a former Belicheat assistant, had to be aware of their tendencies toward "photography."  It's really about the dumbest thing they could have done because it gave them no necessary positives and will likely cost them some draft picks.

But, I'm just a Colts fan piling on for the fun of it.  Personally, I think the Ward allegations are silly.  "Oh, they knew."  C'mon.  NE has always had a good defense, and it wouldn't be beyond their abilities, over the course of a game, to pick up something in a completely legitimate way.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  Hell, if a pitcher tips his pitches, you have to take advantage, right?

And I'm not sure why Ward is so POd about it.  They won the whole damn thing a couple of years later! 

But I'm still calling him Belicheat from now on.     

[faldor]

Yeah I think Hines Ward is a little out of line with his comments.  Luckily the Pats play the Steelers at home later this season.  I'm sure they'll bust him in the mouth a couple times.  As for why "cheat" against the Jets?  That's a valid question.  Obviously they're a better team, there was no need for it.  It was reported last year that they may have done a similar thing in a game against the Packers but I don't think there was sufficient evidence.  And as you may remember the Packers were terrible last year, I think the Pats won by a healthy margin, hardly needed to "cheat" to win that one either.  My only rationale is that maybe they started doing this and were getting away with it, so why stop doing it.  It's not cheating if you don't get caught.  If you can find a way to get a leg up on your opponent then you might as well do it.  Unfortunately the did get caught and now it seems like they're gonna pay the price, whatever that may be.  Sorry Hines Ward, they're not gonna give your crappy Kordell Stewart-led 2002 Steelers the Super Bowl trophy.  It's over and done with, stop crying.

[sandman]

this whole Patriotgate doesn't really bother me. in fact, i barely consider it cheating.

i thought teams assumed that opposing coaches in the booth were watching, seeking out every little advantage they could. that's why coaches cover their mouths when talking to their QBs.

is it considered "cheating" if a batter in baseball watches the lips of the pitcher to see what he's saying? not at all, it's considered smart. and pitchers simply cover their mouths with their glove.

it just seems like a huge gray area to me. although the pats are definitely on the edge of that area.

[freedom78]

this whole Patriotgate doesn't really bother me. in fact, i barely consider it cheating.

i thought teams assumed that opposing coaches in the booth were watching, seeking out every little advantage they could. that's why coaches cover their mouths when talking to their QBs.

is it considered "cheating" if a batter in baseball watches the lips of the pitcher to see what he's saying? not at all, it's considered smart. and pitchers simply cover their mouths with their glove.

it just seems like a huge gray area to me. although the pats are definitely on the edge of that area.

The obvious difference being that there's no rule against watching the lips of the pitcher.  There is a rule against filming/photographing the other team in this way, so, yes, it's cheating.

[faldor]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AlqtzsPLffbuadfpcC2JTWhDubYF?slug=ap-eagles-nflspying&prov=ap&type=lgns

Now the Eagles are questioning if the Patriots "cheated" to win the super bowl against them.  Citing the fact that they had a lackluster 1st quarter and then rolled offensively the next 3, throwing lots of screens when they blitzed.  Is it possible that they made some adjustments after the 1st quarter and that's the reason they improved?  And if the Eagles had watched any game tape of the Patriots the past 7 years they may notice that the Patriots throw A LOT of SCREEN passes.  Where do you think the term dink and dunk comes from that people use to refute what Brady does?  How about you do your homework next time Philly instead of coming up with excuses after the fact.  I respect Brian Westbrook for his thoughts on the subject.  "For me to think back two years ago about something they may or may not have done, it's not worth my time," running back Brian Westbrook said.  More players should follow his lead.

[freedom78]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AlqtzsPLffbuadfpcC2JTWhDubYF?slug=ap-eagles-nflspying&prov=ap&type=lgns

Now the Eagles are questioning if the Patriots "cheated" to win the super bowl against them.  Citing the fact that they had a lackluster 1st quarter and then rolled offensively the next 3, throwing lots of screens when they blitzed.  Is it possible that they made some adjustments after the 1st quarter and that's the reason they improved?  And if the Eagles had watched any game tape of the Patriots the past 7 years they may notice that the Patriots throw A LOT of SCREEN passes.  Where do you think the term dink and dunk comes from that people use to refute what Brady does?  How about you do your homework next time Philly instead of coming up with excuses after the fact.  I respect Brian Westbrook for his thoughts on the subject.  "For me to think back two years ago about something they may or may not have done, it's not worth my time," running back Brian Westbrook said.  More players should follow his lead.

Yeah, the allegations OTHER than those of the Jets (and Packers) are getting a bit silly.  You KNOW that's true when I, a Colts fan, am coming to their defense on this facet of the issue.  You don't see me questioning whether the Pats cheated to beat the Colts. 

We all know that ridiculously bad referring had more to do with it. 

[C0ma]

Belichick Fined; Pats Lose Pick

Bill Belichick was hit with a $500,000 fine Thursday night -- the maximum allowable by NFL by-laws -- for violating the league's policy on videotaping the Jets defensive signs Sunday. In addition, Roger Goodell notified the Patriots that they would forfeit a 2008 first-round draft choice if they reach the playoffs, or second- and third-round picks if they do not qualify for the playoffs. The club was also fined $250,000.

www.espn.com

[tim_m]

Belichick Fined; Pats Lose Pick

Bill Belichick was hit with a $500,000 fine Thursday night -- the maximum allowable by NFL by-laws -- for violating the league's policy on videotaping the Jets defensive signs Sunday. In addition, Roger Goodell notified the Patriots that they would forfeit a 2008 first-round draft choice if they reach the playoffs, or second- and third-round picks if they do not qualify for the playoffs. The club was also fined $250,000.

www.espn.com

Ouch! I hope cheating was worth it