NFL 2007 Season - Discuss it all here

[Axl4Prez2004]

Gilee is right, but I'll go one step further, McNabb is a lock for the Hall of Fame, and deservedly so.  Hear me out.

John Elway.  Automatic Hall of Famer.  Let's look at the numbers through 9 seasons...shall we??? 
*keep in mind Donovan has about 2 or 3 games left this season, and the fact he is going to pound the fucking Giants hard this weekend to the tune of 2 to 3 touchdowns.

Completion %  John Elway              54.7%
                        Donovan McNabb    58.4%

Rushing td's     J.E.     20
                        D.M.    24

Touchdowns/Interceptions      J.E.   148/140
                                                D.M.   165/78     (that is fucking sick!  not even close!!!)

Now, what makes the touchdown numbers amazing, as if the low interceptions weren't enough, he's done it in 18 less games.  Of course if McNabb gets in 3 more games this season he'll have played in 15 less games than Elway, and he'll still have more than 20 touchdowns more, and about 60 less interceptions!

Want more?  an average season of McNabb gives you 18.3 touchdown passes and 8.3 interceptions.
                     an average season of Elway gave you 16.4 touchdowns and 15.6 interceptions.

Want more?  '86, '87, and '89 Elway loses 3 Super Bowl games.  In '91 he loses an AFC Championship game.  He was branded as "the guy who couldn't win the big game."  Was that crap?  Yes. 

McNabb loses 3 NFC Championship games and 1 Super Bowl in his first 9 seasons.  Same crap gets thrown his way.  Is it crap?  I think you know the answer.

Philly fans are fair-weather fans and will turn on their athletes the minute things look bad.  It's a shame.  Look at the numbers, they don't lie.

[Loaded NightraiN]

Want more?  '86, '87, and '89 Elway loses 3 Super Bowl games.  In '91 he loses an AFC Championship game.  He was branded as "the guy who couldn't win the big game."  Was that crap?  Yes. 

McNabb loses 3 NFC Championship games and 1 Super Bowl in his first 9 seasons.  Same crap gets thrown his way.  Is it crap?  I think you know the answer.

Let me argue 

Those 3 SB's lost were all to good teams..

39
42
55

Thats an average of 45 points the opponent scored during those games... Its hard to match that in any one game....

Plus he was NEVER known as the guy who could not win the big one... Because he did... 2 in a row, and then retired on top... Yeah one was to a fluke falcons team(coached by a HOF coach, BTW), and beat Brett Favre(future HOF)... Mcnabb has not even been to as many as Elway has lost, let alone won...

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

Axl's campaign manager isn't saying that McNabb is Elway's carbon copy, but the comparisons are valid. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

Loaded, what I was trying to get at was where Elway was at the same stage of his career as Donovan.  Those 2 Super Bowl wins came much later in his career.  That's why I only posted stats from their first 9 years in the league.  Believe it or not, yes, Elway and the Broncos were goats back in the late '80's and early '90's.

 For reference, you can go back to an old Simpsons episode where super-villain Hank Scorpio gives Homer the Broncos.  (he wanted the Cowboys).  At the end of the show the Broncos are shown tripping over themselves playing catch in the frontyard and Homer isn't happy having them there. 

So, let's keep things in perspective here.  The numbers are eye-opening, huh? 

PS Loaded,

# Super Bowl XXI- New York Giants 39, Denver Broncos 20
Elway started at quarterback. He completed 22 of 37 passes for 304 yards, one touchdown, and one interception. He was also the team's leading rusher with six attempts for 27 yards and one touchdown.

# Super Bowl XXII - Washington Redskins 42, Denver Broncos 10
Elway started at quarterback. He completed 14 of 38 passes for 257 yards, one touchdown and three interceptions. He also had three rushes for 32 yards.

# Super Bowl XXIV - San Francisco 49ers 55, Denver Broncos 10
Elway started at quarterback. He completed 10 of 26 passes for 108 yards and two interceptions. He also had four rushes for eight yards, and one touchdown.

1991 AFC - Buffalo Bills 10, Denver Broncos 7
Elway started at quarterback. He completed 11 of 21 passes for 121 yards and one interception. He also had four rushes for 10 yards.  (he also threw for the Bills only td of the game, an int returned for a td.  He was knocked out of the game late in the 3rd quarter and Kubiak replaced him and drove the team for its only td of the game.)

[sandman]

elway won 2 super bowls.

(just a minor detail that may have something to do with his hall of fame induction.)

so instead of comparing d-mac to "winners," you need to compare him to HOF QBs that never won a SB. guys like dan marino, warren moon, and dan fouts. those are QBs that stand out for their passing greatness by putting up numbers far above others of their time.

you have to be a very special QB with significant accomplishments to get in the HOF without a SB ring.

[Loaded NightraiN]

you have to be a very special QB with significant accomplishments to get in the HOF without a SB ring.

Machine Gun Kelly baby 

[Axl4Prez2004]

Can someone else please chime in, "Elway won 2 Super Bowls," please? 

I was talking about his first 9 years in the pros.  Jesus Christ.  I'm making the point (quite well I might add) that through their first 9 years, McNabb's been comparable to, if not better than, John Elway.

"very special quarterback," and "special accomplishments."  Hmm, 2nd all-time in fewest interceptions per attempt...that's pretty damn special.  I could also list many HOF qb's with SB rings with much poorer numbers than McNabb...but I see my logical arguments backed up by facts pale in comparison with, "he just doesn't act like a leader," and "he can't win the big one," etc.

[AbominableHoman]

Just wanted to clarify, that yes, Joe Montana is the best quarterback in the history of the NFL.

BTW: Axl4Prez, can you guys take it easy on us this weekend? 

[sandman]

Can someone else please chime in, "Elway won 2 Super Bowls," please??

I was talking about his first 9 years in the pros.? Jesus Christ.? I'm making the point (quite well I might add) that through their first 9 years, McNabb's been comparable to, if not better than, John Elway.

"very special quarterback," and "special accomplishments."? Hmm, 2nd all-time in fewest interceptions per attempt...that's pretty damn special.? I could also list many HOF qb's with SB rings with much poorer numbers than McNabb...but I see my logical arguments backed up by facts pale in comparison with, "he just doesn't act like a leader," and "he can't win the big one," etc.

you think if mcnabb retired right now he'd be a hall of famer. you are wrong. i tried to show you why, but you refuse to look at this with an open mind.

comparing SELECTED stats of elway's first 9 seasons is a total waste of time. elway is top 5 in total yards, total TDs, and total completions.

and i guess you think Neil O'Donnel is a HOF QB as well. after all, he's FIRST in interceptions/attempt. ?

[AbominableHoman]

Can someone else please chime in, "Elway won 2 Super Bowls," please? 

I was talking about his first 9 years in the pros.  Jesus Christ.  I'm making the point (quite well I might add) that through their first 9 years, McNabb's been comparable to, if not better than, John Elway.

"very special quarterback," and "special accomplishments."  Hmm, 2nd all-time in fewest interceptions per attempt...that's pretty damn special.  I could also list many HOF qb's with SB rings with much poorer numbers than McNabb...but I see my logical arguments backed up by facts pale in comparison with, "he just doesn't act like a leader," and "he can't win the big one," etc.

you think if mcnabb retired right now he'd be a hall of famer. you are wrong. i tried to show you why, but you refuse to look at this with an open mind.

comparing SELECTED stats of elway's first 9 seasons is a total waste of time. elway is top 5 in total yards, total TDs, and total completions.

and i guess you think Neil O'Donnel is a HOF QB as well. after all, he's FIRST in interceptions/attempt. 

McNabb will be hard pressed to be considered in the Hall of Fame, mostly by the excellent points made above. He's had multiple chances at SB's, and failed at each one. Definitely doesn't possess the intangibles I'd imagine a HoF QB would have.

Also, look at the absolutely impressive surrounding cast McNabb has had at times. Comparing some of John Elways games? Especially against the 49ers, and looking at this;

... He was also the team's leading rusher with six attempts for 27 yards and one touchdown....

That's says a lot for your surrounding cast, when you have more rushing yards (27) then a RB.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Unbelievable Sandman, just when I think you read my posts, you put words in my mouth.  Did I say McNabb would be a HOFer if he retired today?  No fucking way!     He is on his way to the HOF.  Again, you throw out stats of Elway's whole fucking 16 year career, despite the fact I was comparing their first 9 years.

Yeah man, Neil O'Donnell in the HOF!     That's just fucking stupid dude.  You took one stat out of all I listed and throw Neil fucking O'Donnell out there.   

Homan:  "Doesn't possess the intangibles..."  I'm glad you can read his fucking mind.  Hey, we'll draft teams.  I'll take the guy who never throws fucking interceptions.  You take the "gritty" guy who throws 1 interception for every touchdown.

Elway won 2 Super Bowls because he had a guy named Terrell Davis, a great offensive line, and the privilege of playing a shitty Falcons team.  Oh, did I mention he was also a hof qb?  Because he was.  Just sayin'.

Homan:  Absolutely impressive surrounding cast?  Are you high?  James Thrash, Greg Lewis, Todd Pinkston, Donte Stallworth for about 4 games in the beginning of 1 year...Westbrook not playing in the Championship game against the Panthers...get real buddy.    Homan, you also gave Elway credit for 27 yards rushing and a td.  They were getting blown out!!!!  Are you going to run the ball down by 20...30...40 points???  Think about it. 

btw, Jim Kelly is a hof qb in my book too. 

also, Sandman, what's with the SELECTED stats comment?  What stats would you like to SELECT that make your point? Through 9 years in the league, Donovan McNabb has been comparable to if not better than John Elway.  You disagree.  Prove your point.  The challenge is yours.  1983 to 1991 for Elway...'99 to '07 for McNabb.

[sandman]

gilee said mcnabb has potential to be a hall of famer. then you said...

"Gilee is right, but I'll go one step further, McNabb is a lock for the Hall of Fame"

so what the fuck did that mean? you said he's a lock. to me that means it doesn't matter what he does the rest of the way. make up your mind.

mcnabb doesn't throw interceptions. that's awesome. but it is not THAT important of a stat, and i proved that.

key stats...i named them. mcnabb has 150 TDs and 30,000 passing yards to go.

[Axl4Prez2004]

McNabb is a lock for the hall of fame...I'm sorry I didn't qualify that with "on this type of pace."  For that I apologize.

Can you please look at what they did in their first 9 seasons?

Heck, you guys love to call Donovan inaccurate...his completion % is higher than Elway's too!  That's taking into account John's better years because he did get better with age. 

By saying Neil O'Donnell didn't throw interceptions, you proved your point?  By saying Elway has 300 td passes you proved your point?  Guess what, Donovan will have 300 td passes when it's all said and done.  50,000 yards?  Donovan will be damn close.

Judge them against their peers.  McNabb was a Pro-Bowl QB 5 times in his first 9 seasons.  Elway...4 times.

My question to you is, if Elway doesn't win those 2 Super Bowls at the end of his career, is he a hof qb?  In my eyes, yes he is.


PS  I apologize for dropping the f bombs so much...I had an AWFUL day at work today.  That's no excuse, but goddamn have I had to deal with some crazy bullshit.   

[sandman]

put it this way, after 9 seasons, NO, elway was not a lock for the hall of fame. he got better as his career went on and put up significant numbers in the 90's.

without the SBs, yes he was a lock. he's arguably the greatest QB of all time.

he was a lock because he had unbelievable stats, combined with the fact that he was a clutch player. very early in his career he had "The Drive." a clutch performance in a playoff game. then throughout his career he had all those 4th quarter comebacks. so he was always viewed as a "money" QB. a winner.

so it's those accomplishments that do not show up in stat sheets, but are actually more important than stats, that were a key element of his greatness. add to that top 5 all-time passing stats (not to mention 2 SBs and a SB MVP) and you have a hall of fame QB.

what has mcnabb done in big games??? i'll save us all the gory details.   

[gilee7]

The following was taken from a radio interview with Eagles' Team President, Joe Banner:

"I can't envision a situation in which (Donovan McNabb) is not our quarterback next year ... I believe there is a very, very sizable silent majority who realize how lucky we have been to have Donovan McNabb. I mean, we are talking about a quarterback who went to four straight (NFC) championship games. There are only four quarterbacks in the history of the league that have done that. You are talking about a quarterback who has had a higher winning percentage in his first seven years in the league than Peyton Manning. You are talking about a quarterback that has one of the highest quarterback ratings over the first seven seasons, one of the best TD-to-interceptions ratios of any quarterback in the history of this game in his first seven seasons in the league ... My expectations, and I can't really even picture a different scenario, is that he'll be the quarterback (next season)."

[Axl4Prez2004]

Sandman, that was the response I was looking for...your latest one.  At least you conceded Elway's first 9 seasons didn't make him a Hall of Famer...however, that said, it provided a base.  By no means was it a bad  first 9 seasons, like Donovan's, it was filled with big game disappointments. 

If we are still waiting around for Chinese Democracy in 7 years, it will be great to look back at this and have a laugh if Donovan either flourishes or poops the bed.  I do believe the former will be the outcome, but hey, nobody knows, that's why this stuff is fun to talk about...not to mention the subjective nature of HOF qualifications.   

Sandman, you're not alone.  I was at work today going back and forth with a co-worker who disagrees with my stance on McNabb.  He's got money on the Giants this weekend.  I told him I'm going to start a fund-raising drive to help support his family when he loses all his money.     The Eagles are favored by 3...automatic slam-dunk Eagles cover.  Automatic.
 

[sandman]

i agree....it'll be fun to check out these discussions 5-10 years from now. and if mcnabb ever wins us a SB, i'll be praising him and wearing his jersey.

i just think the intangibles are not in his favor as far as being a hall of famer. it doesn't matter what's right or wrong. all that matters is the perception that he is not a great leader (maybe even a poor one) and he's not clutch (poor performances in his biggest games).

so i think it will be easier for some voters to make the case AGAINST mcnabb, than it will be to argue FOR him.

and although banner is full of shit, i do think mcnabb is the QB opening day 2008.

[Axl4Prez2004]

i agree....it'll be fun to check out these discussions 5-10 years from now. and if mcnabb ever wins us a SB, i'll be praising him and wearing his jersey.

i just think the intangibles are not in his favor as far as being a hall of famer. it doesn't matter what's right or wrong. all that matters is the perception that he is not a great leader (maybe even a poor one) and he's not clutch (poor performances in his biggest games).

so i think it will be easier for some voters to make the case AGAINST mcnabb, than it will be to argue FOR him.

and although banner is full of shit, i do think mcnabb is the QB opening day 2008.

Sandman, I respect your posts.   

Ha, the guy I work with said the same thing when I gave him the same challenge.  I told him if McNabb ever wins a Super Bowl, he's donning the jersey, and we're taking lots of pics.     He kind of back-tracked though when I said it doesn't matter what team he's on when he wins one.  Because honestly, if he went to either Chicago or Minnesota, I think he'd have a legitimate shot at a Super Bowl in the next 6 years.  The Bears defense has been destroyed by injuries, they'll be back next season and Minnesota has a base with Peterson and a defense that doesn't allow ANY yards on the ground. 

Enjoy the game on Sunday.  You know I'll be watching...and just so ya know, no, I don't have a McNabb jersey. 
Eagles win and cover this weekend.  Gut check time.  Weak 5-7 team will beat injured 8-4 squad...and cover. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

Did I mention the Eagles are going to win and cover against the Giants today?   

[Axl4Prez2004]

McNabb with a beautiful opening drive and caps it with his 166th career touchdown pass.

McNabb converts a 4th and 1 qb sneak on the Eagles' own 36 yard line.

7-0 Eagles.