The Left's Iraq Muddle

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

What percent of Al-Qaeda's ranks are poor and uneducated?? And what are their plans for the eradication of global poverty?

Good point - I wouldn't exactly call Ben Laden "poor and uneducated" either.? He is far from both.

I also don't know how Wat-ever can say there isn't a culture clash - look at the way women are treated and how they are told to dress in some arab countries as well as the huge intolerance of other religions.

1st,? i agree with you, weaks in our countries sometimes can acheive something. there is hope.

then:

. Our analysis always cluster these terrorists groups into a closed bubble. (You are refering to Al-quaeda alone)
We reduce the message, the sense of this modern crisis to the terrorist group only. It goes back that what i always say: we reduce the issue to make it simple and mis-inform.
I say the poors, the weaks > you say al-quaeda is not poor.
you just brush them away to focus on the terrorist group alone.

I agree with you guys when you say Al-quaeda clearly said they were fighting the *west* ... but google for the original classic ben laden's speeches : he states 2 points
- palestine
- west presence in the gulf (against our *interests*)

I said the poors and weaks around the world.
The book i linked to, through multiple interviews of *terrorists* clearly shows that, all around the world, when you ask (and he does in a very sincere way, he blends in to ensure truthful interviews) these evil guys - any terrorist group -, they tell you they are using violence against the violence of the oppressors.

If we want to focus on Al-quaeda, which would be the worst organ, no matter how dumb ben laden is (and he is, so the people who met him said), no matter how dumb and useless and dangerous their actions are, they are still the brutal phenomenon that comes from the tragic truth : the rich countries are raping the poors.

Imagine yourself in the USA, with Foreigners companies litteraly stealing your ressources, paying 1% of the price they should pay. Foreign countries installing military bases across your land. imagine that. imagine yourself poor, starving, and uneducated. imagine yourself hearing about a group of guys that *can kill* the oppressors? i can assure you that you would fight, and blow up yourself. truth.


i think that, just like the kids dying from hunger in africa, terrorism is just a consequence of our global worldwide system.
When we hear about kids dying from hunger, we give money and hope the problem will go away - while pumping their gas and stealing their sulfure and gold-
When we face terrorism, we un-link them from their *message* - they have, in the mouth of cnn, no message or the message we want them to have -, and we just want to destroy them, not seeing where they come from.

Recent studies (cf. The Looming Tower) have shown that the al-quaeda recruits are either criminals already or very very poor.
what does that tell you? That this whole civilization hate our freedom and plastic boobs?

GeorgeSteele > the situation of women there? - So you think we can bring the truth ?
they put a veil on women.
why don't we show them tapes of *I want a famous face* on mtv, why don't we show them our women in our ads, naked to sell products? or the amazing porn industry we have?
- no critics here, just :
there is a difference betwee fighting for human rights across the world, and looking at foreigners as savages with wierdos culture.

hope i was clear, it's a complicated topic to discuss ...

 


ps: gonna go watch the champions' league final game , milan-liverpool, now 

[Dr. Blutarsky]

Before this thread gets hijacked by those who attack others who do not agree with them.........

This was a great article Berkely Riot. I think that correctly sums up a lot of whhere we've been and what the future may hold for Iraq.

[GeorgeSteele]

I say the poors, the weaks > you say al-quaeda is not poor.
you just brush them away to focus on the terrorist group alone.

Madrid, London, New York - all are from Al-Q-Tips's greatest hits.? For us to understand the worst attacks in the last few years, we should focus on the group responsible.

Imagine yourself in the USA, with Foreigners companies litteraly stealing your ressources, paying 1% of the price they should pay. Foreign countries installing military bases across your land. imagine that. imagine yourself poor, starving, and uneducated. imagine yourself hearing about a group of guys that *can kill* the oppressors? i can assure you that you would fight, and blow up yourself. truth.

I can't say for sure unless I'm in that predicament, but I'd like to think that I would fall into the 99.999999999%+ of the poor that don't kill innocents or blow themselves up.

Recent studies (cf. The Looming Tower) have shown that the al-quaeda recruits are either criminals already or very very poor.
what does that tell you? That this whole civilization hate our freedom and plastic boobs?

I've seen other studies [Mark Sagerman?] that indicate about 75% of Al-Queda recruits are middle-class and educated.? I haven't seen a truly scientific study, so I guess the truth is somewhere in between.? In either case, there seems to be much more going on than sticking it to the Man.

GeorgeSteele > the situation of women there? - So you think we can bring the truth ?
they put a veil on women.
why don't we show them tapes of *I want a famous face* on mtv, why don't we show them our women in our ads, naked to sell products? or the amazing porn industry we have?
- no critics here, just :
there is a difference betwee fighting for human rights across the world, and looking at foreigners as savages with wierdos culture.

One is exploitation ($$ for dignity); the other is coercion (do it or die).? Both are bad.? One is worse.

hope i was clear, it's a complicated topic to discuss ...

 

Peace to you too brother.? Maybe one day all the terrorists will abandon their violent acts and approach us in peaceful dialogue.? And then we can kill them all at once because they'd never see it coming.? ?

ps: gonna go watch the champions' league final game , milan-liverpool, now?

Inzhagi!? 1-0 Milan...

[The Dog]

i think that, just like the kids dying from hunger in africa, terrorism is just a consequence of our global worldwide system.
When we hear about kids dying from hunger, we give money and hope the problem will go away - while pumping their gas and stealing their sulfure and gold-
When we face terrorism, we un-link them from their *message* - they have, in the mouth of cnn, no message or the message we want them to have -, and we just want to destroy them, not seeing where they come from.

Recent studies (cf. The Looming Tower) have shown that the al-quaeda recruits are either criminals already or very very poor.
what does that tell you? That this whole civilization hate our freedom and plastic boobs?

GeorgeSteele > the situation of women there? - So you think we can bring the truth ?
they put a veil on women.
why don't we show them tapes of *I want a famous face* on mtv, why don't we show them our women in our ads, naked to sell products? or the amazing porn industry we have?
- no critics here, just :
there is a difference betwee fighting for human rights across the world, and looking at foreigners as savages with wierdos culture.

hope i was clear, it's a complicated topic to discuss ...

are they poor b/c of their countrys economy or b/c of the US and the rest of the world?  If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?  I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

i don't see the veils as wierdos nor do i see the religous customs or traditions as savage, but when you shoot women for going to school or teaching a class, or stone them to death b/c they talked to a boy, it just comes down to basic human rights (or lack thereof)

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

i think that, just like the kids dying from hunger in africa, terrorism is just a consequence of our global worldwide system.
When we hear about kids dying from hunger, we give money and hope the problem will go away - while pumping their gas and stealing their sulfure and gold-
When we face terrorism, we un-link them from their *message* - they have, in the mouth of cnn, no message or the message we want them to have -, and we just want to destroy them, not seeing where they come from.

Recent studies (cf. The Looming Tower) have shown that the al-quaeda recruits are either criminals already or very very poor.
what does that tell you? That this whole civilization hate our freedom and plastic boobs?

GeorgeSteele > the situation of women there? - So you think we can bring the truth ?
they put a veil on women.
why don't we show them tapes of *I want a famous face* on mtv, why don't we show them our women in our ads, naked to sell products? or the amazing porn industry we have?
- no critics here, just :
there is a difference betwee fighting for human rights across the world, and looking at foreigners as savages with wierdos culture.

hope i was clear, it's a complicated topic to discuss ...

are they poor b/c of their countrys economy or b/c of the US and the rest of the world?  If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?  I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

i don't see the veils as wierdos nor do i see the religous customs or traditions as savage, but when you shoot women for going to school or teaching a class, or stone them to death b/c they talked to a boy, it just comes down to basic human rights (or lack thereof)

i agree on both point.

[mrlee]

What percent of Al-Qaeda's ranks are poor and uneducated?  And what are their plans for the eradication of global poverty?

Good point - I wouldn't exactly call Ben Laden "poor and uneducated" either.  He is far from both.

I also don't know how Wat-ever can say there isn't a culture clash - look at the way women are treated and how they are told to dress in some arab countries as well as the huge intolerance of other religions.

1st,  i agree with you, weaks in our countries sometimes can acheive something. there is hope.

then:

. Our analysis always cluster these terrorists groups into a closed bubble. (You are refering to Al-quaeda alone)
We reduce the message, the sense of this modern crisis to the terrorist group only. It goes back that what i always say: we reduce the issue to make it simple and mis-inform.
I say the poors, the weaks > you say al-quaeda is not poor.
you just brush them away to focus on the terrorist group alone.

I agree with you guys when you say Al-quaeda clearly said they were fighting the *west* ... but google for the original classic ben laden's speeches : he states 2 points
- palestine
- west presence in the gulf (against our *interests*)

I said the poors and weaks around the world.
The book i linked to, through multiple interviews of *terrorists* clearly shows that, all around the world, when you ask (and he does in a very sincere way, he blends in to ensure truthful interviews) these evil guys - any terrorist group -, they tell you they are using violence against the violence of the oppressors.

If we want to focus on Al-quaeda, which would be the worst organ, no matter how dumb ben laden is (and he is, so the people who met him said), no matter how dumb and useless and dangerous their actions are, they are still the brutal phenomenon that comes from the tragic truth : the rich countries are raping the poors.

Imagine yourself in the USA, with Foreigners companies litteraly stealing your ressources, paying 1% of the price they should pay. Foreign countries installing military bases across your land. imagine that. imagine yourself poor, starving, and uneducated. imagine yourself hearing about a group of guys that *can kill* the oppressors? i can assure you that you would fight, and blow up yourself. truth.


i think that, just like the kids dying from hunger in africa, terrorism is just a consequence of our global worldwide system.
When we hear about kids dying from hunger, we give money and hope the problem will go away - while pumping their gas and stealing their sulfure and gold-
When we face terrorism, we un-link them from their *message* - they have, in the mouth of cnn, no message or the message we want them to have -, and we just want to destroy them, not seeing where they come from.

Recent studies (cf. The Looming Tower) have shown that the al-quaeda recruits are either criminals already or very very poor.
what does that tell you? That this whole civilization hate our freedom and plastic boobs?

GeorgeSteele > the situation of women there? - So you think we can bring the truth ?
they put a veil on women.
why don't we show them tapes of *I want a famous face* on mtv, why don't we show them our women in our ads, naked to sell products? or the amazing porn industry we have?
- no critics here, just :
there is a difference betwee fighting for human rights across the world, and looking at foreigners as savages with wierdos culture.

hope i was clear, it's a complicated topic to discuss ...

 


ps: gonna go watch the champions' league final game , milan-liverpool, now 

what you give is what you get. it works both ways.

they supposedly (lets just say that incase conspiracy theories are right) attack one of the biggest countries in the world, america. and moan that they are now having there asses kicked and "being oppressed", good they are being oppressed, fuckers coming over blowing my country up to just because we helped get rid of the dictator of iraq.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

what you give is what you get. it works both ways.

they supposedly (lets just say that incase conspiracy theories are right) attack one of the biggest countries in the world, america. and moan that they are now having there asses kicked and "being oppressed", good they are being oppressed, fuckers coming over blowing my country up to just because we helped get rid of the dictator of iraq.

1st, it's not YOUR country.

2nd, you either :
have no clue what you're talking about,
don't understand anything about the world around you,
are stoopid,
are a troll,

i hope the 4th, because every little thing you said is wrong. even the simple fact about *your* own country. can't even get that straight.

[GeorgeSteele]

If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?? I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

That could very well be true, but I'm not totally convinced.  I admit, I've contributed my fair share of ridicule for Bush's simplistic "they hate freedom" explanations.  But, conversely, is it any less incomplete to say that so long as these guys have a Volvo, HDTV on a plasma screen, a comfortable 3-bedroom house with 1 1/2 bathrooms, a dental plan, etc, etc, they would not react violently if their society became one where:

 - women can choose between covering their face with a veil or just wearing a veil and nothing else;
 - the local theatre featured Debbie does Dubai and had a Theo van Gogh night;
 - Salman Rushdie published The Satanic Verses 2 - Satan Sings the Blues; or
 - a local artist depicted a painting of Mohammed surrounded by elephant dung (remember the NY controversy with the Virgin Mary?)

Sorry for the bad jokes, but you understand.  A multi-cultural Western type society is where they see Iraq headed if the US has it's way.  So I think the drive to preserve a pure Islamic society based on Sharia law rather than a shit standard of living is what motivates them more.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?? I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

That could very well be true, but I'm not totally convinced.  I admit, I've contributed my fair share of ridicule for Bush's simplistic "they hate freedom" explanations.  But, conversely, is it any less incomplete to say that so long as these guys have a Volvo, HDTV on a plasma screen, a comfortable 3-bedroom house with 1 1/2 bathrooms, a dental plan, etc, etc, they would not react violently if their society became one where:

 - women can choose between covering their face with a veil or just wearing a veil and nothing else;
 - the local theatre featured Debbie does Dubai and had a Theo van Gogh night;
 - Salman Rushdie published The Satanic Verses 2 - Satan Sings the Blues; or
 - a local artist depicted a painting of Mohammed surrounded by elephant dung (remember the NY controversy with the Virgin Mary?)

Sorry for the bad jokes, but you understand.  A multi-cultural Western type society is where they see Iraq headed if the US has it's way.  So I think the drive to preserve a pure Islamic society based on Sharia law rather than a shit standard of living is what motivates them more.

i see. have a point,

nevertheless we are always, and i guess it's natural, thinking everything relatively to our "norms" and culture.

the veil? there is more than just a veil. it's a deep cultural thing.
it's hard to break down cultural rules.
People agree on these rules. In these countries, if you're nto rich and exposed to the western references, the veil, the limitation of sacrilegeous expression, are not something you question. they are natural for you.
do you see my point?
It's like in our countries .... we dont question that we cannot walk naked in our countries,  communism = evil in the usa,  we don't question free-trade or growth .....

the veil for ex,
it's an issue that goes beyond religion. The stand of women in society. i can assure it's no better in ours.
we are talking about general issues (freedom of expression and women's situation) that are also questionnable in our countries, and reducing these issues to their religion ....

also, we are focusing on very specific places
take Jordan, take Tunisia, women dont wear veils. I hear the veil was BANNED in Tunisia ... and it's a muslim country i'd say.


the big point is, IMO, that we're not better than them. we're not as free as we think we are.
When i hear a fat tv brainwashed consumerism-slave say that we are bringing *freedom* there : i laugh.

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

Also,

about terrorists, al-quaeda, world-domination , civ. clash ...

i was reading that article - amazing http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2006/04/LEMOINE/13332 - i'm sorry it's iin french -

but it's a long article that talks about the FARC in columbia.

basically it's a mirror situation of what we have somewhere else with *terrorism* - hamas, palestine, irak ... -

but, it's far away, we don't that much of info, we're that sentimentaly tied to the issue ...

and it's a great way to look at these kind of power struggles with a fresh look ... and i can assure, you will really think out these issues in a different way after that... nothing is black and white anymore. who's the terrorist?

PEACe

[freedom78]

1st, it's not YOUR country.

I don't see what the problem is with him saying this.  We all, to some extent, take possession of our countries.

nevertheless we are always, and i guess it's natural, thinking everything relatively to our "norms" and culture.

the veil for ex,
it's an issue that goes beyond religion. The stand of women in society. i can assure it's no better in ours.
we are talking about general issues (freedom of expression and women's situation) that are also questionnable in our countries, and reducing these issues to their religion ....

the big point is, IMO, that we're not better than them. we're not as free as we think we are.
When i hear a fat tv brainwashed consumerism-slave say that we are bringing *freedom* there : i laugh.

I agree about norms, which is why the neo-cons' plan to democratize the middle east is so laughable.

But I disagree about the women issue.  I'm not arguing that women are treated fairly in ANY society...even where they have freedoms, there are still de facto differences in pay for the same work.  That said, there's a BIG difference between how women are treated in Western societies and in many Middle Eastern/Muslim countries.  The Taliban rule of Afghanistan is an extreme example, but it DID exist, and we all know how women were treated there.  And, unfortunately, there are places where, while perhaps less strict about some issues, you still see women being beaten or killed...because they were raped!  Or, as was the case in another thread around here recently, because they were dating someone from a different sect.  It has nothing to do with veils, in my opinion.  If they want to wear them, because of religious reasons, then I have absolutely no problem with that.  After all, it took Christianity 2000 years to realize that women's subservient place, as shown in the Bible, isn't how the world should work, in reality.  So, by that timeline, I guess we can see how Muslim women are doing in about 600 years.

Regarding the idea that we're better than them...well, I don't think I'm better than anybody, and I CERTAINLY don't think everyone needs to drop their culture and government, to set up a mini-America, in order to be better than they are. 

Also,

about terrorists, al-quaeda, world-domination , civ. clash ...

i was reading that article - amazing http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2006/04/LEMOINE/13332 - i'm sorry it's iin french

You should be sorry.  When will you French learn that ENGLISH is the official language?!

Kidding of course. 

[mrlee]

what you give is what you get. it works both ways.

they supposedly (lets just say that incase conspiracy theories are right) attack one of the biggest countries in the world, america. and moan that they are now having there asses kicked and "being oppressed", good they are being oppressed, fuckers coming over blowing my country up to just because we helped get rid of the dictator of iraq.

1st, it's not YOUR country.

2nd, you either :
have no clue what you're talking about,
don't understand anything about the world around you,
are stoopid,
are a troll,

i hope the 4th, because every little thing you said is wrong. even the simple fact about *your* own country. can't even get that straight.

i live here, i am classed as a person who legally lives here, my family dont come from immigrants as our family history has been traced, i dont have any french or anything like that in me, i am english through n through, im proud of being english and i love my country, just not the way it is run or is being destroyed by several groups who dislike it.

i do understand the world around me.

lets get some facts straight about these islamic terrorists.

in the 1980s the soviet union was at war in afghanistan, american being in a cold war wanted to avoid conflict, so they funded and trained the future terrorist leaders to fight the soviets for them, the soviets are beaten and they now take over afghanistan.

So their groups influence spreads with its use of religious brainwashing and force.

Now, like i said, because conspiracy theories suggest america constructed 9/11, if we assume the facts we  are told are the truth, that the terrorists did infact attack one of the biggest and most powerful countries in the world, one run by what some people would say a "cowboy" they are gonna get the same shit back to them, whether alternative motives for the oil pipeline in afganistan comes into equation, they gave the americans a reason to get in there coutnry and kick there arse back to the caves.

So this shit with Saddam in iraq brings another ar about, that the british people DIDNT want, however our government goes to war anyway.

So the terrorists then go all jihad on england and attack us in london in 2005 because our country fought over there, even though it was over the news our people did not want this, they attack our people.

Now they infiltrate our country, they preach in mosques and brainwash young muslim children, and white people who converted to it, to help attack this country.

So i think its good they are being oppressed and having the shit blown out of there country because they would be running wild doing twice as much to MY country as they already are doing.

So before trying to call me a troll and telling me i dont know my facts, why dont you learn some facts you ignorant fuckingasshole.

 

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

thank you mr. "100% pure english no immigrant blood in your vein", that was an entertaining piece.
you can go back to your trailer with david beckham and your Fred Perry polos

i'll stay an ignorant fuckin asshole .

PEACE

[mrlee]

thank you mr. "100% pure english no immigrant blood in your vein", that was an entertaining piece.
you can go back to your trailer with david beckham and your Fred Perry polos

i'll stay an ignorant fuckin asshole .

PEACE

a reply of someone who cant think of a good reply.

[The Dog]

If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?  I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

That could very well be true, but I'm not totally convinced.  I admit, I've contributed my fair share of ridicule for Bush's simplistic "they hate freedom" explanations.  But, conversely, is it any less incomplete to say that so long as these guys have a Volvo, HDTV on a plasma screen, a comfortable 3-bedroom house with 1 1/2 bathrooms, a dental plan, etc, etc, they would not react violently if their society became one where:

 - women can choose between covering their face with a veil or just wearing a veil and nothing else;
 - the local theatre featured Debbie does Dubai and had a Theo van Gogh night;
 - Salman Rushdie published The Satanic Verses 2 - Satan Sings the Blues; or
 - a local artist depicted a painting of Mohammed surrounded by elephant dung (remember the NY controversy with the Virgin Mary?)

Sorry for the bad jokes, but you understand.  A multi-cultural Western type society is where they see Iraq headed if the US has it's way.  So I think the drive to preserve a pure Islamic society based on Sharia law rather than a shit standard of living is what motivates them more.

they would be angry, they might even beat up some chicks who were doing that stuff or burn down some movie theaters, but if they knew they would be punished, put in jail for doing so and lose their comfy leather sofas, cable tvs and fancy cars - yeah, i think they would think twice about it.  I definitely don't think they'd be leaving home and fighting a guerilla war or blowing themselves up in Sabaros.

i don't know, its a tough call.  its definitely a different culture for sure - nobody will argue that.  but i think the less you have the more you likely you are to not give a shit about yourself.  i'd like to see an economy restored in iraq and see what happens

[mrlee]

If they suddenly had money and were middle class do you think they would still be blowing themselves up?  I don't think so - when you have nothing to lose you don't care about losing your life. When you have a house, food, and can provide for your children you aren't as eager to strap C-4 to yourself.

That could very well be true, but I'm not totally convinced.  I admit, I've contributed my fair share of ridicule for Bush's simplistic "they hate freedom" explanations.  But, conversely, is it any less incomplete to say that so long as these guys have a Volvo, HDTV on a plasma screen, a comfortable 3-bedroom house with 1 1/2 bathrooms, a dental plan, etc, etc, they would not react violently if their society became one where:

 - women can choose between covering their face with a veil or just wearing a veil and nothing else;
 - the local theatre featured Debbie does Dubai and had a Theo van Gogh night;
 - Salman Rushdie published The Satanic Verses 2 - Satan Sings the Blues; or
 - a local artist depicted a painting of Mohammed surrounded by elephant dung (remember the NY controversy with the Virgin Mary?)

Sorry for the bad jokes, but you understand.  A multi-cultural Western type society is where they see Iraq headed if the US has it's way.  So I think the drive to preserve a pure Islamic society based on Sharia law rather than a shit standard of living is what motivates them more.

they would be angry, they might even beat up some chicks who were doing that stuff or burn down some movie theaters, but if they knew they would be punished, put in jail for doing so and lose their comfy leather sofas, cable tvs and fancy cars - yeah, i think they would think twice about it.  I definitely don't think they'd be leaving home and fighting a guerilla war or blowing themselves up in Sabaros.

i don't know, its a tough call.  its definitely a different culture for sure - nobody will argue that.  but i think the less you have the more you likely you are to not give a shit about yourself.  i'd like to see an economy restored in iraq and see what happens

alot of the homeless in england n america dont blow themselves up, these people are just brainwashed into it by the factions in there areas.

[stolat]

thank you mr. "100% pure english no immigrant blood in your vein", that was an entertaining piece.
you can go back to your trailer with david beckham and your Fred Perry polos

i'll stay an ignorant fuckin asshole .

PEACE

a reply of someone who cant think of a good reply.

 ^ Yeh, mrlee, good reply. I thought that the David Beckham comment was very good.

[mrlee]

thank you mr. "100% pure english no immigrant blood in your vein", that was an entertaining piece.
you can go back to your trailer with david beckham and your Fred Perry polos

i'll stay an ignorant fuckin asshole .

PEACE

a reply of someone who cant think of a good reply.

 ^ Yeh, mrlee, good reply. I thought that the David Beckham comment was very good.

not really. hes trying to say im a chav.

Which is far from the case.
or else id be typing like this "fukin, tw@ mayt, tlk lyk dis cus duno ow 2 type"

[Where is Hassan Nasrallah ?]

ok, sorry about the personal attacks , lets go back on topic

[25]

my family dont come from immigrants as our family history has been traced, i dont have any french or anything like that in me, i am english through n through,

That's hilarious. Topic of the thread aside; The idea that anyone living in Britain would believe that they're of some pure, untainted ethnic stock is laughable. Britain is Europe's village bicycle, everyone's had a go. The English are a mongrel race, how can you be a pure mongrel?