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Author Topic: Bumblefoot on the music industry  (Read 11736 times)
bigblue88112
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"All the way from California" -- 11/10/2006


« on: May 15, 2007, 01:44:55 PM »

By way of gnrdaily.com & jukebo.cx


Turning A Bicycle Into A Car - by Bumblefoot

I?ve been an independent musician all my life. I?ve dabbled in business with the ?music industry?, 99% of it a disappointing experience. More like your worst nightmare. I?ve always pushed the idea that musicians should be self-sufficient, and shouldn?t sell their souls and empower an industry that can?t support them. I write my own songs, engineer my own recordings, manufacture and distribute my own CDs, arrange my own promo and tours. In the past I?ve posted unreleased recordings of my band on download sites for those that might enjoy it. I post full songs on MP3 sites like MySpace. I make MP3s of CDs I?ve bought. I download MP3s of obscure albums I bought as a kid but can no longer find.

I also play guitar in a well-known band that is often faced with internet-based drama, from rumors that misinform the public to the spread of leaked recordings that misrepresent the band?s music. That makes me an unknown, unsigned artist in a major-label rock band, who funds his own albums as a little D.I.Y. label but is illegally downloaded in proportion to the exposure of the major-label band, and I?m an illegal downloader myself. Kinda puts me in the vast gray area between sides of the tired ol? issue of downloading.

Overheard a good conversation about it the other day. Went something like this?

HuhHuhHuhHuh?-

I bought 1000 albums, and then CDs, over the past twenty years. I bought them once, why should I have to buy them again every time there?s a new format? Isn?t it ok to just make my own MP3s so my music collection can be portable? And if so, why isn?t it ok to download the MP3s from someone else, rather than making them myself?

You don?t have to re-buy your albums in a new format - if you want to listen to the albums you bought, dust off your turntable and play your albums. Buying one thing doesn?t entitle you to the other - buying a bicycle doesn?t give you the right to a free car.

OK, but if I can turn my bicycle into a car, why can?t I still ride it?

You?re buying the objects that carry the music, not the music. Today, the physical object is not something you hold in your hand, the physical object is a file on your drive - you need to buy the file.

OK, what if I -want- to buy files of an album that?s out-of-print and unavailable. Isn?t it ok to download MP3s from someone who has the album, rather than going without the music?

Who says you can have everything you want?

Yeah, but if there?s nothing available to buy, no one?s losing a sale, so what?s the harm in just letting me enjoy the music that someone else wants to share with me? Idealistically, maybe people will start getting into the band again, they end up with one of the songs licensed for a big movie, and it revives their careers and music??

You don?t own the rights to the songs to make these decisions.

OK, well a music career doesn?t go very far without listeners, so you shouldn?t undermine our importance and strength.

It sounds like you?re fighting to take away our power to govern our own music.

Sure, we?ve been treated like we?re the enemy for a while now, now there?s opposition.

When you steal from us, you are the enemy.

You?ve denied us options and don?t listen to what we want, and make things difficult for us. We started downloading as the new way of getting music, and you sued children, took away our favorite websites, tried to destroy everything instead of being part of everything. You could have easily embraced downloading ten years ago instead of putting us through unnecessary crap all this time. We had all these great sites for getting independent music like mp3.com and the old Napster, and you killed them.

No, YOU killed independent music. You took artists that pay out their pocket for studio time, manufacturing, everything, people who barely make a living selling 1000 CDs but do it for the love, and you put their albums on Torrent sites and stole half the food out of their families? mouths.

Well, whoever downloaded those albums obviously didn?t like them enough to go out and buy them, so they didn?t lose a sale. If you like an album that much, you?ll show your support, and buy the album. It?s like getting a free sample at a supermarket - if you didn?t like the album enough to buy it, you wouldn?t have bought it anyway, whether there was a free sample or not. But at least there was a free sample - if anything, that free sample might have created more sales.

It?s not a free sample, it?s a free entire-product - like giving away a whole movie instead of a preview. And do you really think a 12-year-old kid is gonna go ask his mom to buy an album for him, when he can just quietly steal it off a torrent site?

OK, but the kid is gonna become a fan of the band, maybe enough of one to go to shows, buy merch, buy the next album.

There won?t be a next album, because too many people stole the first one.

OK, well at least there are ways for indie artists who can?t get on iTunes to be part of the system - stuff like SNOCAP on MySpace.

The music industry is dying?

It should. It?s a flawed system that leaves artists starving and labels scurrying, it doesn?t work.

At least it was a system that didn?t leave an open door for people to give into the temptation to steal. We want to get your spending money, but we can?t ?sign? every kid on myspace that sells his own music on there. I guess we?ll have to wait for enough kids on myspace to break copyright laws, sue myspace, take over myspace, and turn the site into something that benefits the industry.

Go ahead. We?ll just open another site to give us what we want. And another, and another.

Great, together we?ll keep lawyers rich.

You?re only complaining because there?s nothing keeping -you- rich. We?re simply not satisfied doing business with you anymore - we?re in an age where we?re willing to trade a little sound quality for a little more convenience and access to a lot more music than you make available. We stopped buying CDs because you stopped supporting artists and art, and don?t give us enough quality and diversity. A band like Pink Floyd would have never given us "The Wall" or "Dark Side Of the Moon" if they were signed today, because you would have dropped them after their first album didn?t sell enough.

Their album wouldn?t have sold enough because you would have illegally downloaded away all the reportable sales.

So you?re saying that the consumer killed music and the music industry?

Are you saying the consumer holds no accountability for how the stealing added up?

Are YOU saying that the industry holds no accountability for how they treated us when we got on board with the new downloading technology and the industry refused to be part of it, and gave us no choice but to move ahead without them and trade our own MP3s?

HuhHuhHuhHuh?-

I buy music, I steal music. I also sell music. People buy my music, people also steal my music.

In the end, people just want their music. And we?ll get it the easiest way we can.

Posted by Bumblefoot on Thu 10 May @ 8:02 pm
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 01:49:23 PM »

in other words dont download the leaks he wants the royalties!
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 01:54:38 PM »

The whole thing is kind of contradictory...

I mean he says downloaders are killing the industry, but he does it himself.
And he says the industry dying might be a good thing.

I don't know what to make of it yet, but it's an interesting "editorial."
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 02:14:09 PM »

The whole thing is kind of contradictory...

I mean he says downloaders are killing the industry, but he does it himself.
And he says the industry dying might be a good thing.

I don't know what to make of it yet, but it's an interesting "editorial."

contradictory?Huh its meant to be an argument between two people, showing both sides of the argument.  Of course its gonna be contradictory if you read it as one person's thoughts!
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 02:25:35 PM »

Of course it's contradictory.? There are no easy answers to this issue.?

The internet has changed the music industry.? Forever.? Period.? End of story.? There's no going back.

Ron's a really smart, interesting dude.? I always enjoy hearing what he has to say.? Axl's so very lucky to have Ron Thal on his team.? That guy's done more for Guns N' Roses than anyone since the early 90's.

I don't see how die-hards listening to demos or boots hurts though.  Axl wasn't going to release these demos anyways.  He's not losing money.  If demo leaks are the worst he has to put up with, then I think he should just learn to cope. 

I can understand the gripe about leaks misrepresenting the band, but I think Axl makes that an issue when it doesn't have to be.  The number of people who care enough about CD to download leaks is sooooooo small.  When Axl throws a shit fit about it, it attracts much more media attention.  Then it ends up on Rolling Stone or some shit, and that could do harm.  But if Axl wouldn't try to be such a control freak and could just be cool with the fact that his most loyal, must long-suffering fans had a few crappy demos during the wait, then maybe the leaks would be a quiet thing between fans and wouldn't have to get all the way to the mainstream press.
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 02:35:12 PM »

How can you not download something, if you know its a 50/50 chance that it's coming out or not....?  That's the question that needs to be thrown to Axl so he understands our frustration.
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bigblue88112
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 02:37:38 PM »

The whole thing is kind of contradictory...

I mean he says downloaders are killing the industry, but he does it himself.
And he says the industry dying might be a good thing.

I don't know what to make of it yet, but it's an interesting "editorial."

contradictory?Huh its meant to be an argument between two people, showing both sides of the argument.? Of course its gonna be contradictory if you read it as one person's thoughts!

Ok, the opposing viewpoints makes more sense. ?However I still think it IS contradictory in its own way.


Of course it's contradictory. ?There are no easy answers to this issue. ?

The internet has changed the music industry. ?Forever. ?Period. ?End of story. ?There's no going back.

Ron's a really smart, interesting dude. ?I always enjoy hearing what he has to say. ?Axl's so very lucky to have Ron Thal on his team. ?That guy's done more for Guns N' Roses than anyone since the early 90's.

I don't see how die-hards listening to demos or boots hurts though. Axl wasn't going to release these demos anyways. He's not losing money. If demo leaks are the worst he has to put up with, then I think he should just learn to cope.

I can understand the gripe about leaks misrepresenting the band, but I think Axl makes that an issue when it doesn't have to be. The number of people who care enough about CD to download leaks is sooooooo small. When Axl throws a shit fit about it, it attracts much more media attention. Then it ends up on Rolling Stone or some shit, and that could do harm. But if Axl wouldn't try to be such a control freak and could just be cool with the fact that his most loyal, must long-suffering fans had a few crappy demos during the wait, then maybe the leaks would be a quiet thing between fans and wouldn't have to get all the way to the mainstream press.

I agree almost completely! ?I really like Ron and what he has brought to the band. ?

The only thing I have to say is as far as I'm concerned, Axl can take his time. ?When it's ready and released, i'll be there to buy 2 copies. ?Until then, I'll just be chilling. ?Cool
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 03:47:08 PM »

I feel like I download responsibly.  I don't do it to cheat artists.  If I LIKE what I download, I delete and buy.  If I dislike what I download, I delete and don't buy. 

One thing I think is missing from the "argument" is about the possibility of returning albums.  Music is one of VERY FEW items that, once opened, cannot be returned.  I don't download to rip off artists...I do it because I've been ripped off one too many times.  In the pre-downloading era, you'd hear a cool single, buy an album, and it'd have twelve other tracks that were inferior to the single.  I'm sure it's happened to most of us.  But, when you buy an album like that, you can't return it to get your money back.  If I order dinner, and it's nasty or cold, then I can get my money back.  If I buy a TV and it's too big for my entertainment center, I can get my money back.  But not with music.  Hell, the comparison can't even really be carried over to DVDs!  After all, you can go to see a movie for 1/3-1/2 the price of eventually owning it, and most of that cost is for the experience of GOING to the movie, rather than knowing what it's about.  You can even RENT the movie, for $2-3, before buying.  In other words, you know EXACTLY what you're getting.  But not with music.  Someone HAS to buy it first, to take that risk that it will be a rip-off.   

Now, if the music industry wants to appeal to people like me to NOT download, then they should do a LOT more of what Nine Inch Nails just did, which is to stream the entire album on a website.  I didn't want to STEAL it!  I wanted to HEAR it, so I could decide if it was WORTH buying!  And I appreciate an artist that's confident enough in the quality of his/her/their music to allow me to hear it in its entirety before buying it. 

If the music industry wants to know why album sales decline, they can look to themselves!  For years, they've produced an inferior product, and charged for it the same as if it's a great product.  Led Zeppelin IV probably costs about the same as an album by "Fergie."  Roll Eyes  But, I'm willing to bet there's a difference...   hihi 
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 03:47:33 PM »

I can understand the point of view the musicians have about downloading,but in the case with GN'R making the fans wait for son long it shouldn't really surprise Axl that the fans are downloading anything that they can find.I download most of my favorite music by my favorite bands and then I'll go out and buy it if I like it,so not everyone that downloads any music just burn it to cd's and sell it,unless ofcourse they're live boots of shows,even then I still won't buy them because for some reason the so called "traders" sell for really high prices,but anyway back on topic.I will download anything I want but I still buy the product either way. smoking
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 03:50:20 PM »

I for one am not bying something I don't know anything about. If I don't like the preview you're not getting my money.

Downloading can be such a preview.
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 03:59:01 PM »


This is an old article, but it's interesting in that it cites evidence that "illegal downloaders" spend much more money on music than other fans do.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718249.stm
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 04:07:50 PM »

I for one am not bying something I don't know anything about. If I don't like the preview you're not getting my money.

Downloading can be such a preview.

To be fair, so can checking out myspace and iTunes.  Myspace often lets you hear complete songs without the option of downloading, and iTunes lets you "preview" each track to hopefully get a feel for the song.

That said, I feel much better when I've heard enough COMPLETE songs to know that I'll be getting my moneys worth and feel satisfied with an album I buy.  As said elsewhere, too many times a great single was used to sell an album of inferior songs to unsuspecting (if not misled) buyers.  I find myself in the camp of the self-proclaimed "ethically responsible downloader" - who uses the option sparingly and solely for the purpose of making the decision of whether or not to buy an album, or to just purchase the individual song(s) I like.  Given the iTunes and myspace options, it's been literally years since I've downloaded any song that I could pay for somewhere else...
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2007, 04:08:39 PM »

Bumblefoot presents some valid points, it makes me wish the music industry was still like it was in 1987.
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 04:11:57 PM »

in other words dont download the leaks he wants the royalties!

That's not what I took away from what he said at all. If all Ron was worried about was money, he'd have just posted a message saying "Don't download the leaks, I want the royalties".

He took the time to start an interesting debate on the subject then posted a point/counterpoint that he'd overheard.
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 04:25:04 PM »

I agree with Ron that the music industry needs a revolution and control needs to be back with the artist.  I also agree that downloading tracks isn't ripping the artist off in respect of if you like, you buy.  The music industry is so backwards it seems the lawyers are getting their pennies or dimes.

I have d/l gnr tracks from Chin Dem in anticipation for the release. I have been into GNR since they first released back in the 80s and I know I will buy it regardless.  Am I wrong? after all the waiting? I think not!  and in the early days we used to trade cassette tapes with friends to get the PREVIEWS and then later buy the Magazines and buy the posters and buy the 12inch buy the patches for our jackets buy the bandanas buy the posters buy the other shit that i haven't mentioned. This d/ling is just another method to it, cassette tapes were traded in the exact same manner but obviously the internet makes things more available.  Its the same thing on a grand scale. I personally don't care and if previewing is wrong then stop it and watch what happens to musicians!!!!! If we can't hear it then what?

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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 04:33:33 PM »

in other words dont download the leaks he wants the royalties!

That's not what I took away from what he said at all. If all Ron was worried about was money, he'd have just posted a message saying "Don't download the leaks, I want the royalties".

He took the time to start an interesting debate on the subject then posted a point/counterpoint that he'd overheard.


i wasn't trying to slate ron or anything, i was just joking around, perhaps i should've put a smiley  hihi

anyway for what its worth i think there are both pro's and cons to the issue, and for what its worth i dont think the industry will ever recover form the downloaders. by recover i mean make millions instead of billions.
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2007, 04:39:22 PM »

I believe artists gets the most from touring anyway. Most income from records go to the record companies.
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 04:43:50 PM »

The artists who still make quality music have not been hurt that badly, as most of the big money to be made in music is out on the road.

The artists who have been hurt the most by downloading are those that used to have 1 or 2 good songs and an album full of filler stuff. People used to have to buy their whole album to get the song they wanted, now you can just download the song if you're really only looking for one.

This will hopefully push more artists to make better music throughout the whole album, as that is becoming one of the only ways to really push the idea of buying an album. The lack of record sales dollars for the record companies should also have the effect of decreasing the outrageous advances artists used to get. By not receiving millions and millions up front the way artists used to get in the late 80's/ early 90's, they will be forced to get their act together and get focused about recording a record and getting out on the road to earn their money. Without having an everlasting cushion to sit on, artists will hopefully become more motivated, which will in turn hopefully lead to a generation of better music to come.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 05:05:30 PM »

What I seem to be hearing a lot of is people unhappy with the thought of taking a risk and maybe, just maybe, having a pleasant surprise.   I've bought albums on the recommendations of friends or music journalists whose tastes I know to be similar to my own, and yes sometimes I have been disappointed with the outcome.  But it doesn't make me want to stop taking a chance.

I'm not sure but perhaps it's merely an expression of the attitude prevalent in today's society that it's not only possible, but indeed it's our right, to have our personal expectations met in full.  Or maybe, people today are just more demanding, I don't know.

However, I do know that it's possible to resist the lure of illegal downloads; it's called self-control.   ok
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 05:12:27 PM »

that was the longest, most drawn out fake dialogue i've ever read. ?All of the points nicely danced around one another and whenever there was nothing to say, the response was "you're killing the music industry!" or "our families are starving!" blah blah. ?Also, it appears even bumblefoot steals music and is completely indifferent towards it all... so what the hell was the point of posting it.

Yes all people steal music, but the bands that I love, I will go out of my way to purchase their albums, like most people. ?But if I'm checking out an artist for the first time (i.e. - Bumblefoot's music) I'm not going to blow $15 for an 10 song album filled with potentially mediocre songs. ?But since i've checked them out, I've grown to love some of them (i.e. - a friend gave me a couple ryan adams albums and I have since fallen in love with that music and make it a point to buy the new CD's.)

This, I feel, is the best philosophy to have on the issue.
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