The GN'R vs Nirvana thread

[Falcon]

Check the "Dead Horse" section JamieG, plenty of info for you there..

[Evil Ash]

Check the "Dead Horse" section JamieG, plenty of info for you there..

If you're so sure of that, post the links...

[Freya]

For those who may not know....Nirvana absolutely hated Guns N' Roses. They used to mock them all the time.

We know.  It's been discussed numerous times.  

KC dissed GnR in many print interviews and televised interviews that I saw, I mean before the question was even asked he would go out of his way to bring them up.  So did Courtney Love.  But whatever, that was then.  

I really don't believe Axl is or was as homophobic as KC believed him to be.  And really the level of hatred that was leveled between the bands suggests a competition of sorts.  Nirvana believed they were punks (which is highly debateble, especially with hindsight) and they were taking on the big, bad, far less socially sensitive GnR.  And it escalated from there.  Also, KC had been victimized by bullies and transferred that on to Axl imo.  I've said this before that they had some similar experiences but reacted in different ways, Kurt became a sensitive boy flag waver and Axl tried on a tough guy persona.

Slash and Duff just shrugged it off I guess, which is big of them considering KC called the whole band not just Axl, talentless and basically stupid.  I wouldn't have covered his song, but I'm not them.  

[JamieG]

For those who may not know....Nirvana absolutely hated Guns N' Roses. They used to mock them all the time.

We know.  It's been discussed numerous times.  

KC dissed GnR in many print interviews and televised interviews that I saw, I mean before the question was even asked he would go out of his way to bring them up.  So did Courtney Love.  But whatever, that was then.  

I really don't believe Axl is or was as homophobic as KC believed him to be.  And really the level of hatred that was leveled between the bands suggests a competition of sorts.  Nirvana believed they were punks (which is highly debateble, especially with hindsight) and they were taking on the big, bad, far less socially sensitive GnR.  And it escalated from there.  Also, KC had been victimized by bullies and transferred that on to Axl imo.  I've said this before that they had some similar experiences but reacted in different ways, Kurt became a sensitive boy flag waver and Axl tried on a tough guy persona.

Slash and Duff just shrugged it off I guess, which is big of them considering KC called the whole band not just Axl, talentless and basically stupid.  I wouldn't have covered his song, but I'm not them.  

Sorry, I know it can be annoying for regulars to see topics that have previously discussed started again, but I haven't been to this site in quite a while and I recently read some of the old Kurt Cobain interviews and wanted to discuss this topic, and I didn't feel like searching through all the archives to see if it has been discussed in the past.

Also, KC had been victimized by bullies and transferred that on to Axl imo.  I've said this before that they had some similar experiences but reacted in different ways, Kurt became a sensitive boy flag waver and Axl tried on a tough guy persona.

I find that intriguing and I think you're on to something with that. If you just knew about their personal history growing up, you might think that they might relate, but instead Cobain hated Axl. I think what you said transfering some of that onto Axl is definitely true.

One thing I totally disagree with though, is saying that Axl wasn't or isn't homophobic. How can you such a thing or deny it? Hey, I think Axl is a brilliant song writer and there are things I like about his personality, but c'mon, he's as homophobic as you can get.

[JamieG]

If you're so sure of that, post the links...  

Yeah, Evil Ash, I just went to that section and I couldn't find much either. I found one thread that touched on it briefly and the one that you posted the link to, which was comparing record sales.

Anyway, getting back to the real topic, not sure if you ever saw it, but this is the interview where much of it comes from. Straight from the horses mouth.

http://www.nirvana-music.com/text/advocateint0292.html

[[AD: I read the liner notes you wrote on Incesticide. I've never seen somebody on a major label say, "If you're a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, we don't want you to buy our records."

KC: That's been the biggest problem that I've had being in this band. I know there are those people out in the audience, and there's not much I can do about it. I can talk about those issues in interviews - I think it's pretty obvious that we're against the homophobes and the sexists and the racists, but when "Teen Spirit" first came out, mainstream audiences were under the assumption that we were just like Guns N' Roses.

Then our opinions started showing up in interviews. And then things like Chris and I kissing on Saturday Night Live. We weren't trying to be subversive or punk rock; we were just doing something insane and stupid at the last minute. I think now that our opinions our out in the open, a lot of kids who bought our record regret knowing anyhing about us. [Laughs] There is a war going on in the high schools now between Nirvana kids and Guns N' Roses kids. It's really cool. I'm really proud to be a part of that, because when I was in high school, I dressed like a punk rocker and people would scream "Devo!" at me-because Devo infiltrated the mainstream. Out of all the bands who came from the underground and actually made it in the mainstream, Devo is the most subversive and challenging of all. They're just awesome. I love them.

AD: Is there anything about Guns N' Roses' music you like?

KC: I can't think of a damn thing. I can't even waste my time on that band, because they're so obviously pathetic and untalented. I used to think that everything in the mainstream pop world was crap, but now that some underground bands have been signed with majors, I take Guns N' Roses as more of an offense. I have to look into it more: They're really talentless people, and they write crap music, and they're the most popular rock band on the earth right now. I can't believe it.

AD: Didn't Axl Rose say something nasty to you at the MTV Video Music Awards in September?

KC: They actually tried to beat us up. Courtney and I were with the baby in the eating area backstage, and Axl walked by. So Courtney yelled, "Axl! Axl, come over here!" We just wanted to say hi to him--we think he's a joke, but we just wanted to say something to him. So I said, "Will you be the godfather of our child?" I don't know what had happened before that to piss him off, but he took his aggressions out on us and began screaming bloody murder.

These were his words: "You shut your bitch up, or I'm taking you down to the pavement." [laughs] Everyone around us just burst out into tears of laughter. She wasn't even saying anything mean, you know? So I turned to Courtney and said, "Shut up, bitch!" And everyone laughed and he left. So I guess I did what he wanted me to do--be a man. [laughs]

AD: Does he remind you of guys you went to high school with?

KC: Absolutely. Really confused, fucked-up guys. There's not much hope for them.

AD: When he was singing about "immigrants and faggots," people were excusing it by saying, "Well, he's from Indiana-"

KC: Oh, well, that's OK then. [Laughs] Insane. Later, after we played our show and were walking back to our trailer, the Guns N' Roses entourage came walking toward us. They have at least 50 bodyguards apiece: huge, gigantic, brain-dead oafs ready to kill for Axl at all times. [Laughs] They didn't see me, but they surrounded Chris, and Duff [McKagan of Guns N' Roses] wanted to beat Chris up, and the bodyguards started pushing Chris around. He finally escaped, but throughout the rest of the evening, there was a big threat of either Guns N' Roses themselves or their goons beating us up. We had to hide out.

Since then, every time Axl has played a show he's said some comment about me and Courtney. When he was in Seattle, he said "Nirvana would rather stay home and shoot drugs with their bitch wives than tour with us." [Laughs] That's why there's this big feud in most of the high schools. It's hilarious. He is insane, though. I was scared. I couldn't possibly beat him up; I know he would beat me up if he had the chance.

AD: How do you feel about Guns N' Roses fans coming to see you?

KC: Well, when we played that No on 9 benefit in Portland, I said something about Guns N' Roses. Nothing nasty - I think I said, "And now, for our next song, 'Sweet Child o' Mine.'" But some kid jumped onstage and said, "Hey, man, Guns N' Roses plays awesome music, and Nirvana plays awesome music. Let's just get along and work things out, man!"

And I just couldn't help but say, "No, kid, you're really wrong. Those people are total sexist jerks, and the reason we're playing this show is to fight homophobia in a real small way. The guy is a fucking sexist and a racist and a homophobe, and you can't be on his side and be on our side. I'm sorry that I have to divide this up like this, but it's something you can't ignore. And besides they can't write good music." [Laughs]

AD: You know, you were probably taking money from people who were voting yes on 9 - but they really wanted to see Nirvana.

KC: [Laughs] Right! Chris went to a Guns N' Roses concert when they played here with Metallica a couple of months ago, and he went backstage, and there were these two bimbo girls who looked like they walked out of a Warrant video. They were sitting on the couch in hopes of sucking Axl's dick or something, and one of them said, "Chris, we saw you at that No on 9 benefit! We're voting yes on 9! You kissed Kurt on the lips! That was disgusting!" [Laughs] To know that we affect people like that-it's kind of funny. The sad thing is that there's no penetrating them. After all that, after all the things those girls had seen us do, that was the one thing that sticks in their minds....

KC: Our personal expenses over the last year-we made a million dollars, of which $380,000 went to taxes, $300,000 went to a house, the rest went to doctors and lawyers, and our personal expernses were like $80,000. That's including car rentals, food, everything. That's not very much; that's definitely not what Axl spends a year. She insisted on a prenuptial agreement; no one knows that. So there's definitely not manipulation going on in this relationship at all.]]

[Flyguy_1ca]

I don't know if he's a homophobe...I mean lets not forget his 2 biggest idol's growing up were Elton John and Freddy Mercury.  That would be pretty weird for a homophobe.

[JamieG]

I'm betting that he liked their music before he knew anything about them personally.

It's sort of like what Kurt Cobain was talking about in that interview, people who liked Nirvana's music than finding out what they think about these issues and wishing they never knew.

It's works the other way too, there's people who are gay who might love Guns N' Roses music and than they find out about Axl's homophobia.

If you love the music, that can be more of a factor than the other stuff.

[badgirl]

I've said this before that they had some similar experiences but reacted in different ways, Kurt became a sensitive boy flag waver and Axl tried on a tough guy persona.


Freya, you always say intelligent things.  

Two things on a topic that has been discussed ad naseum here. I know that people are going to post what they want to post, but please understand that this is a really complicated topic (one's sexism/racism/homophobia) that deals with the deepest intricacies of the human psyche (especially in Axl's case because how he deals with all these issues is inextricably linked to experiences he had in his childhood) and you simply cannot just say "he is" or "he is not" a homophobe/racist/sexist... There is simply too much to discuss about it but its way simplistic to look at one thing he said and draw conclusions from that.

Um, that interview with Kurt (posted above) really pissed me off. I am about as objective as you get about this shit (because it really doesn't matter to me one way or another) but Kurt was such an arrogant prick. And that reporter could not have been more up his ass.   All signs point to the fact that Kurt had quite a thing for Axl, love/hate whatever you want to label it, but he was a bit obsessed it seems. Kurt was such a paradox- he was sensitive but he was also a fucking jerk.  

But, generally speaking, Freya is absolutely correct that Kurt and Axl had A LOT in common, were flip sides of the same coin.

[Freya]

Freya, you always say intelligent things.

Thanks honey.

And Jamie, I could argue the point about Axl's supposed homophobia, as badgirl points out it's a complicated issue.

Do I think he is confused about his feelings about gays?  Yes.  Considering his abusive past/strict upbringing and the fact that a man who picked him up hitchhiking tried to rape him, I have no doubt that he's got issues and also major issues with women, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying his music.  

But I do also appreciate that as a male performer he's portrayed a lot of sensitivity and a sexual personae on stage that you don't normally get from your usual guy.  He is a fan of a lot of gay artists and I think his only judgment of people is on a personal basis, iows, his feelings about gays is not a malicious thing.

I dressed like a punk rocker and people would scream "Devo!" at me-because Devo infiltrated the mainstream. Out of all the bands who came from the underground and actually made it in the mainstream, Devo is the most subversive and challenging of all. They're just awesome. I love them.

See, this is funny.  Axl liked Devo too.  He said in his high school if you liked Devo, you were considered a punk rocker.  I think one of the guys from Devo said once that they wanted Axl to cover 'Freedom of Choice', that would have been cool.  
 

[madagas]

"He is insane , though. I was scared." That pretty much sums it up.  

[Doc Emmett Brown]

Um, that interview with Kurt (posted above) really pissed me off. I am about as objective as you get about this shit

I think I know how you feel... I am a Nirvana fan, but definitely not a Kurt fan.

He made it so hard to like both genres of music - almost as if you were choosing between 2 opposing political ideologies.  Please!  give me a break!   It may seem like that because one was so anti-Rockstar while the other defined Rockstar, but that's all on the surface!  

Both bands wrote good music, but I obviously prefer Guns.  The lyrics "I think I'm dumb" just dont cut it for me  

Posted by: JamieG  Posted on: Today at 01:46:56am  
My question is what is your opinion on Nirvana and Kurt Cobain and how could the remaining members of GNR ever play a Nirvana song?

Initially, I was uncomfortable with it.  But I understand that Duff & Co may genuinely like the song and just feel like playing it regardless of the sordid history between GNR and Nirvana.
The 5-year old kid in me wants VR to give it back to Nirvana as much as they got it, but that would be pointless since the guy went and offed himself.

[Fuckin' Gunner]

Poor Slash! Agrred to play a song written by Kurt Cobain, a horrible giutar player...

Well, if Vr really needs it they will be fucked up!

Ok, I still liking VR... but they don?t need to play Nirvana, unless they play "In Bloom".

[Walapino]

im not a Nirvana freak so anyone knows who wrote Negative Creep? maybe it wasnt a Cobain song or did he write everything?

[Fuckin' Gunner]

im not a Nirvana freak so anyone knows who wrote Negative Creep? maybe it wasnt a Cobain song or did he write everything?

Yeah... I never heard this song... well, I?ve sais what I said based in what I have heard from Cobains's guitar: crap and more crap!

[the dirt]

im not a Nirvana freak so anyone knows who wrote Negative Creep? maybe it wasnt a Cobain song or did he write everything?

Kurt basically wrote everything. I think the only Nirvana song written by the whole band, was scentless apprentice

[eNgIeS]

Its the past, Kurts dead, he was addicted to herion at the time

So were Slash & Duff (or at least other substances). Its the past, it was a rivalry between the bands, i believe Kurt probably had the most hate towards Axl, & he didnt really know the others in the band

[YouCouldBeMine]

Well let me start off by saying Nirvana sucks, all there music is so depressing. I think also it was just Kurt / Axl not to much Nirvana / GnR . VR is probaly just thinkin fuck it lets get away from Axl and play whatever we want.

[SunKing278]

I really like Nirvana's music and have since late 1991 when I heard them for the first time.  Nowhere near as much as GNR or VR (or a whole host of other bands), but they were a great rock n' roll band.  However, that was really rude and ignorant of Kurt Cobain to say he couldn't think of one redeeming quality about GNR and unfairly try to project his image of Axl onto the whole band.  Talentless?  Come on, what was this guy on?  Wait, don't answer that.  You want to talk about talentless, just look at a great deal of the no-name bands Kurt was always talking about.  It's really big of Slash and Duff to be playing one of his songs now.  Their version of "Negative Creep" is every bit as good as the original, if not better since Slash adds a kick-ass solo to it.  And, as many of us know, Axl wore a Nirvana t-shirt in the video for "Don't Cry," which was released shortly before Nirvana hit the big time.  Kurt repaid him by being a first-class asshole, instead of being grateful for the promotion.  Just imagine what a great tour Nirvana and Guns N' Roses would have been in 1992.  It could have happened if Kurt hadn't been such a stuck-up loser.  If he himself wasn't gay (and who the hell knows, maybe he was), then why did he care if Axl was a homophobe or not?  I personally don't think he was or is, nor do I really care, and neither should have Kurt.  "You're either with us or against us," what a bunch of crap.  Most rock fans loved both bands and there's nothing wrong with that at all, except in the mind of some p.c. fascist like Cobain or the other alt-rock nazis that roamed the earth during that time.  As good as Nirvana and a few of the other grungers were, thank God those days are behind us.  The early ?90s saw a lot of really good bands, like GNR, get knocked to the curb for absolutely no good reason at all.  Sadly, the general public bought into this bullshit, but I think in 2004 most of us realize just how unfair all of that truly was.  There was room for grunge and pure rock, but it had to be one or the other thanks to asshole like Cobain and all the elitist snobs who supported his worthless ass.  Cobain wasn?t even the most talented guy in his own band.  He had talent, but he should have let that talent speak for itself instead of trying to knock everyone else down in the process.

Sorry, I'm rambling, but it's almost 4 am and I've been drinking all night.  That Kurt Cobain really pisses me off, regardless of how good his music was.  He had a two-year daughter to think about and the whole world in the palm of his hand and he kills himself (assuming that's what actually happened and Courtney Love didn't have him killed, which I wouldn't doubt).  If in fact he did kill himself, that just proves what a piece of shit he really was.  Say what you will about Axl (I?m not his biggest fan anymore, as some of you have noticed), but at least he didn?t take the easy way out.  He?s still alive, and thank God for that.

[matt88]

In my opinion Nirvana were just jelous of the power and popularity GNR had. Kurt Cobain was just a useless untalented junkie he dissed GNR and look where the wanker is now dead.

Slash, Duff and Matt aren't little whinging bastards who hold grudges against useless pathetic people. GNR had power and lots of fans. I wonder where Nirvana's so called fans are now, when they released the best off it couldn't even stay in the top 20 for long. They've forgotten about Kurt and Nirvana and for good reason they were shit. GNR has proved to be the winners. 10 years without a record and still millions of fans wait patiently. And the GH has proved to be a success.

[Hammy]

Can't believe this thread has been started because of Velvet Revolver playing Negative Creep.  You really think they've even thought that much about it.  Fact is they like Nirvana's music, hell so did Axl i mean he did not wear a Nirvana hat in an interview for the fun of it (or did he).  Duff & Kurt talked on that plane flight and Slash has shown up on programs talking about Nirvana saying how good they were.  I mean what's the big deal?  Personally i think Nirvana suck but if Velvet Revolver like them then hell why not.  As for Axl being homophobic that's BS.  That line in One In A Million was not meant to generate to the whole world it was just how he felt through personal experience.  Since the time of that song he's performed with Elton John 2wice.  The Freddy Mercury Tribute Concert (where they hugged at the end) and the 1992 MTV VMA's.  Now Elton John obviously has no problem with him, i think Kurt Cobain's entire argument looks weak when he calls them talentless.  How the fuck can you call Slash (with those great solo's e.g. Estranged) and Axl (with his lyrical genious) talentless?