The GN'R vs Nirvana thread

[JamieG]

I spat on Axl's keyboards when we were sitting on the stage.

Funny fact.  Kurt actually found out later that he spat on Elton John's side of the piano.  lol, oh the irony.

I don't know how old you are Jamie, but I believe that Kurt's whole obsession with ignorant jocks liking his music is a bunch of hooie.  There was no doubt at that time, that the "cool" kids liked Nirvana.  GnR fans were not looked at as cool at all.

I have to run back to work, I'll finish later but about the gay issue, there is some evidence that Kurt at least thought about experimenting with his sexuality, whether that was sincere or not I don't know.  Finish later.

In about 1992, they were both pretty popular, so I wouldn't say that GNR weren't "cool". A little later and that might be true.

I'll wait to see what you're going to say about his sexuality before I post, because I have my own thoughts on that too.  If you're saying he was gay, I disagree.

[badgirl]

As soon as Nirvana broke into the mainstream, it became "uncool" to like Guns n Roses (which it remains pretty much to this day) (i get made fun of constantly). I don't know the dates, but whenever you heard teen spirit on MTV was the death of GnR. Whatever, it's bullshit anyway. People who follow what everyone else says are the biggest losers of all.

About Kurt's sexuality. I wanted to point something out before Freya gives her opinion (though i can't imagine it would be that much different from what i am going to say). I wanted to clarify something because there seems to be a rampant homophobia on this board. Being open with your sexuality, experimenting with members of the same sex, does not make someone "gay". That's what people who have no clue about the nuances of sexuality and identity say, but that simply is not true. From all i have seen and read, Kurt was not afraid to experiment with his sexuality, was not afraid of gay people but he was not gay. If he fucked a man, he would still not be gay. The definitions of "gay" vary to such a large degree that you simply cannot label someone else.
Sexuality is a continoum. Not everybody is either one thing or its opposite. there is quite a bit of wiggle free room in between where labels simply don't apply. Not to mention, i think Kurt was progressive enough to realize that labeling is stupid. I doubt he would have done it.

[Imfuckincrazy]

Well said Sunking.

That interview just shows what a worthless stuck up asshole Kurt Cobain is. I think he was insecure and jealous, being the fucking untalented LOSERS they were/are, and bashed Guns N' Roses to make themselves seem better. Not only do I hate their music, but I hate that drugged out bastard Kurt Cobain and his fucking skank whore Courtney Love as well.

Having said that, I think he was right in saying that Axl is homophobic, but I think that perhaps Freddie Mercury's death had something to do with his change of ways? No one can really argue that he wasn't homophobic - after all, didn't he wear a tshirt or something that says "AIDS kills faggots dead" or some such shit? I don't remember because I was quite small at the time. But after Freddie's death, didn't he donate money or something to help in finding a cure for AIDS? I could be wrong about all this because my mom forbid me when I was little to have anything to do with GNR - for the very reason that Axl was homophobic - but I won't go into that, because she pisses me off to NO END!

But even if Axl WAS homophobic, or even still IS, WHO THE FUCK CARES!? As far as music goes, WHAT does that have to do with ANYTHING!? On a personal level I am not a big fan of his (Axl) at all, because everything that Kurt Cobain pretty much said, I admit, it's true - but to call Guns N' Roses UNTALENTED!? And he didn't even aim that lousy excuse of a remark towards Axl, he said that about Guns N' Roses. First of all, Axl Rose just might be the biggest asshole known to God, and with that I will never argue, but that doesn't make him untalented as a musician, which he is NOT - as Superjudge said, he is a lyrical genious, and I will add unique vocal genious - (especially) at the time of that piece of shit interview. And if he is in any way denying Slash (and the rest of the band) then maybe he was just crazy enough that it was probably for the best that he... never mind. I'm not going to say an evil thing about his death just because I'm pissed off over something that he said years ago.

The guy is fucking dead, leave him alone .

I'm not going to kiss his ass just because he is dead. Sure, boo hoo, the guy is fucking dead. I am just venting my anger on something he has said before - to this board, it's not like I would say it to his mother.

[St.heathen]

I have been watching the infamous St.Louis gig from the Illusions tour.  And before all thats chaos kicks off. He's taking to the audience and asks: how can you listen to my music  and still have to ask questions?

He explains what happened when he first got to St.Louis .  I don't know if i should say, but as he said it publicly - well basically he was nearly raped by a guy that had given him a lift from Indiana (i think) and he describes how it took all his might not to slice that guy right there and then.

Now if anyone had experienced something like that you would have alot of aggression and  hate towards that person and that situation.

I think One in a Million is such a mis-understood important song.  The chorus is almost heartbreaking and the lyrics are so biting. But they are not sensational, they are gritty and his true expression.  

I'm suprised as a song writer that Kurt could not see throught the hype that song caused.  

Personally i quite like Nirvana, have never been a big fan though. But i think In Utero, Incesticide and Unplugged are good albums.  

[badgirl]

I have been watching the infamous St.Louis gig from the Illusions tour.  And before all thats chaos kicks off. He's taking to the audience and asks: how can you listen to my music  and still have to ask questions?

He explains what happened when he first got to St.Louis .  I don't know if i should say, but as he said it publicly - well basically he was nearly raped by a guy that had given him a lift from Indiana (i think) and he describes how it took all his might not to slice that guy right there and then.

Now if anyone had experienced something like that you would have alot of aggression and  hate towards that person and that situation.

I think One in a Million is such a mis-understood important song.  The chorus is almost heartbreaking and the lyrics are so biting. But they are not sensational, they are gritty and his true expression.  

I'm suprised as a song writer that Kurt could not see throught the hype that song caused.  

Personally i quite like Nirvana, have never been a big fan though. But i think In Utero, Incesticide and Unplugged are good albums.  

  Absolutely!!! Not to mention, the early experiences he had with his father/step-father raping him and the subsequent abuse he suffered at the hands of his step-father/father (because i forget which was which) when he would look at a woman... Axl got all kinds of mixed messages about sexuality and must have been quite confused considering his boyhood idols were gay but he feared homosexuals (or some) for what they did to him...
I absolutely love that song. It's like the most beautiful angry song (as in song about anger).

[Freya]

No one can really argue that he wasn't homophobic - after all, didn't he wear a tshirt or something that says "AIDS kills faggots dead" or some such shit?

God no, that was Sebastian Bach.

And Jamie, I was 19 in 1992 and liking GnR was not cool.  They were still hugely popular, but not cool.  With all my friends it was Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and Mudhoney.  I still liked GnR, but I wouldn't have said it out loud.

Kurt was most likely not gay, but he was open to experimentation, like I said I don't know if that was sincere or if he just identified with gay people as "victims" and thought he should try it.  Courtney herself said Kurt wanted to sleep with Michael Stipe.  

The differences between Axl's reaction to being called a racist and being labelled homophobic spoke volumes! One greatly seemed to bother him and one didn't. Hmmm...

I didn't see much of a difference, he talked about both at length, I don't know if he ever expressed himself that eloquently about it.  He did talk at length in Interview magazine with a writer who happened to be gay about it.  I just think comparing Axl to the hatred reactionaries like Jerry Falwell or whoever have about gay people is a tad harsh, it's just not that black and white.  People can conflicting emotions over a subject without it necessarily making them hateful or evil.  

It was unfortunate that he used that word, but that song perfectly encapsulates a young, ignorant-of-the-world (and I don't mean stupid) person being presented with a frightening, unfamiliar experience.  I imagine he's learned much since then.  Just because you don't agree with the sentiments in the song, doesn't negate it's effectiveness.

The problem I had then and now with Cobain using the bands as a separation of political ideologies was it was arrogant.  As if anyone who listened to GnR couldn't think for themselves and make their own judgments.  Like we were all redneck trailer trash.  They sold millions of albums, obviously that wasn't the case.  And again Cobain's idealism, was based in a very white, middle class, western pretense.  Do you think if he wer alive today he would say something to Fifty Cent over his gay bashing?  Not bloody likely.  Anyway, what Cobain said may have been admirable on one hand but the answers are not as simple as he presented them, he was judgemental himself and I resented that.  jmo.  

 

[Lord Kayoss]

I'm suprised as a song writer that Kurt could not see throught the hype that song caused.  

He was either in a coma or dead.

[POPmetal]

.  As for Axl being homophobic that's BS.  That line in One In A Million was not meant to generate to the whole world it was just how he felt through personal experience.  Since the time of that song he's performed with Elton John 2wice.  The Freddy Mercury Tribute Concert (where they hugged at the end) and the 1992 MTV VMA's.  Now Elton John obviously has no problem with him

Since when is Elton John the judge?  

Elton may not be the judge, but if Axl was "homophobic," then why would he play with an openly gay person? Not that I have a problem with people who are labeled as  "homophobic" or anything, but a phobia is an irrational fear of something, and if someone was afraid of gay people, he or she wouldn't unnecessarily go on stage and preform with them.

[POPmetal]

Sexuality is a continoum.

That's an interesting point of view. It's completely out of touch with what the majority of the planet's population believes, but it's interesting nevertheless.

[badgirl]

Sexuality is a continoum.

That's an interesting point of view. It's completely out of touch with what the majority of the planet's population believes, but it's interesting nevertheless.

That's because the majority of the American public are bible-thumping sheep who will believe anything you tell them and who have to label people in order to feel comfortable with their own inadequetly defined identities. People are comfortable with "black and white" "gay and straight", etc... because that makes the world quite simple. It's all really an issue about linguistics and identity formation- you "are" something because of a label. What are "gay" people without the word "homosexual" attached to them, without that label...?
Besides, homosexuality, and the various subsets of it, has been around forever. It's only with this society, with language and the ability to, again, label things and people that we have an awareness of it.
Life is shades of grey, which is confusing and scary to people with small minds who only want to think in extremes. If a man hooks up with another man than he must be gay... um, no. first off, because who are you to determine someone else's identity and secondly, much more goes into one's sexual identity than simply who they fuck and how often.
It's all very complicated, and when i hear people throwing that term around (in this case, referring to whether or not Kurt was gay) it's bothersome in so far as no one here (especially on this board where there is way too much homophobia) has the authority to say with certainty anything about Kurt's sexuality and less about his sexual identity.
Sorry for the tangent. And FYI- i am a straight chick from America.  

[POPmetal]

Sexuality is a continoum.

That's an interesting point of view. It's completely out of touch with what the majority of the planet's population believes, but it's interesting nevertheless.

That's because the majority of the American public are bible-thumping sheep who will believe anything you tell them and who have to label people in order to feel comfortable with their own inadequetly defined identities. People are comfortable with "black and white" "gay and straight", etc... because that makes the world quite simple. It's all really an issue about linguistics and identity formation- you "are" something because of a label. What are "gay" people without the word "homosexual" attached to them, without that label...?
Besides, homosexuality, and the various subsets of it, has been around forever. It's only with this society, with language and the ability to, again, label things and people that we have an awareness of it.
Life is shades of grey, which is confusing and scary to people with small minds who only want to think in extremes. If a man hooks up with another man than he must be gay... um, no. first off, because who are you to determine someone else's identity and secondly, much more goes into one's sexual identity than simply who they fuck and how often.
It's all very complicated, and when i hear people throwing that term around (in this case, referring to whether or not Kurt was gay) it's bothersome in so far as no one here (especially on this board where there is way too much homophobia) has the authority to say with certainty anything about Kurt's sexuality and less about his sexual identity.
Sorry for the tangent. And FYI- i am a straight chick from America.  

but what about the rest of the world? Gay people in America have more rights than in most other places in the world.  

And it's funny how you complain about people being labeled as gay, yet you have no problem with labeling the majority of the American public as "bible-thumping sheep" and many people on this board as being "homophobic."  Let's have some consistency. Either we're gonna use labels or we won't use labels.

But I agree that no one here can say anything with certainty about Kurt's sexual identity or about Axl's alleged homophobia. It's good to hear out what people have to say about it though  

[Axl_owns_dexter]

Actually there is a label for Cobain.  It is called Bi-curious.    

Labeling the majority of 300 million people ignorant (whom you have never met) in an argument against ignorance, anyone else see the irony in this?

[matt88]

Lock this thread

[shyne]

whats the deal with Kurt's $$$ mentions at the beginning of the thread, in that article?

he describes his income and stuff, suggesting his economics are small potatos vs. Axl's...

um, wasnt Nirvana that band with the 'appetite for destruction (of equipment) after all their shows?

incidentally, the only guitar i ever saw slash smash was in the video for dont cry..  in fact he's been using the same guitars for years...  (seeing those axe's was a major highlight of my first Slash concert last week!).
he had that red one, and his Les Pauls.  

sorry, i'd know the spec.'s better if i played 6 strings instead of 4...


crack a lack, a cracka jack.  holla back.



Edit*****   yes, Guns equipment was often destroyed at shows too, but thats a little diffrent...   Nirvana would deliberately destroy their gear..
i suppose one might argue Axl's antics 'deliberately' incited riots, but thats a topic for another thread.  

[JamieG]

I just think comparing Axl to the hatred reactionaries like Jerry Falwell or whoever have about gay people is a tad harsh, it's just not that black and white.  People can conflicting emotions over a subject without it necessarily making them hateful or evil.  
It was unfortunate that he used that word, but that song perfectly encapsulates a young, ignorant-of-the-world (and I don't mean stupid) person being presented with a frightening, unfamiliar experience.  I imagine he's learned much since then.  Just because you don't agree with the sentiments in the song, doesn't negate it's effectiveness.

Calling a whole group of people based on one experience with one person is not right, also known as bigotry.

This is how I sort of define homophobia: If you were gay, would you fear telling this person you were gay, do you have reasonable grounds to believe that if they knew that they would react negatively, which can be any of the following -- insultingly, discrimatory, or violently. Basically, would they automatically think less of you simply if they knew you were gay. If the answer is yes, then that person is what I describe as homophobic.

There are varying degrees of it and different reasons behind it. I'll break into 3 basic categories.

#1. The people who believe that if someone is gay that means they want to attack them sexually and rape them.  Sort of the paranoid group.   -- I think it's fair to say Axl fits into this group

#2. The people who wants to beat the fuck out of somebody simpy because they are a "faggot", the Matthew Sheppard beating and murder being the extreme -- I think it's fair to say Axl would fit into this category also.

#3. The religious angle of it's "morally" wrong and they're out to corrupt our society, etc. -- I don't think Axl fits in this one.

I think #1 and #2 applies to Axl and that's why I think it's fair to call him homophobic.

[JamieG]

whats the deal with Kurt's $$$ mentions at the beginning of the thread, in that article? he describes his income and stuff, suggesting his economics are small potatos vs. Axl's...

The reason why I posted that part of the interview was I think it illustrates just how much Kurt hated Axl, the fact that out of the blue when he wasn't even asked about him, he would just bring up Axl, just to make the point that he's not like him.

Cobain hated the stereotypical "rock star" life, the life of luxury. I think he was trying to say that he was still grounded and not a "rock star", so he pointed to someone who he thought was an example of that.

[JamieG]

It's all very complicated, and when i hear people throwing that term around (in this case, referring to whether or not Kurt was gay) it's bothersome in so far as no one here (especially on this board where there is way too much homophobia) has the authority to say with certainty anything about Kurt's sexuality and less about his sexual identity.

The issue was brought up when someone suggested that Cobain "must" have been gay otherwise why would he have had a problem with Axl's comments and homophobia.

Another thing that I admired about Kurt Cobain was that he was perhaps one of the most honest people I've ever read in interviews. He was very candid when talking about it. He said he was "definitely gay in spirit" but the fact was he was just more attracted to females. He said for a while he thought he might be bi-sexual and said he always wished he had male friends that he could connect with on a deep level but never did. At one point he said he wished he was gay just so he could piss off certain people.

That is why I don't think he was gay. The type of person he was, if he was gay he would have said so. You don't do an interview with the Advocate if you're worried about people finding out that you're gay. You don't do benefit shows to fight against homophobia if you're worried about people thinking you're gay.

And about Axl and Elton John, I really don't think that means anything. To say that he's not homophobic because he had respect for Elton John's music is a giant stretch in my opinion. He grew up liking his music. No, I don't think he's so small minded that he would suddenly stop liking music simply because he later learned that he was gay. In other words, Elton John was a musical influence and icon. He's an exception. He certainly does not represent Axl's views on gay people in general.

[POPmetal]

I just think comparing Axl to the hatred reactionaries like Jerry Falwell or whoever have about gay people is a tad harsh, it's just not that black and white.  People can conflicting emotions over a subject without it necessarily making them hateful or evil.  
It was unfortunate that he used that word, but that song perfectly encapsulates a young, ignorant-of-the-world (and I don't mean stupid) person being presented with a frightening, unfamiliar experience.  I imagine he's learned much since then.  Just because you don't agree with the sentiments in the song, doesn't negate it's effectiveness.

Calling a whole group of people based on one experience with one person is not right, also known as bigotry.

This is how I sort of define homophobia: If you were gay, would you fear telling this person you were gay, do you have reasonable grounds to believe that if they knew that they would react negatively, which can be any of the following -- insultingly, discrimatory, or violently. Basically, would they automatically think less of you simply if they knew you were gay. If the answer is yes, then that person is what I describe as homophobic.

There are varying degrees of it and different reasons behind it. I'll break into 3 basic categories.

#1. The people who believe that if someone is gay that means they want to attack them sexually and rape them.  Sort of the paranoid group.   -- I think it's fair to say Axl fits into this group

#2. The people who wants to beat the fuck out of somebody simpy because they are a "faggot", the Matthew Sheppard beating and murder being the extreme -- I think it's fair to say Axl would fit into this category also.

#3. The religious angle of it's "morally" wrong and they're out to corrupt our society, etc. -- I don't think Axl fits in this one.

I think #1 and #2 applies to Axl and that's why I think it's fair to call him homophobic.

1)Around the time of the failed 2002 tour there was a story (go to the bottom of this page http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/news/shownews.php?newsid=611 ) about how Axl ended up in a gay gym in Seattle, but he just went about his business and was very polite. I don't think that describes a "paranoid" person.

2)I don't remember Axl 'beating the fuck out of' Elton John even though he was on the same stage with him and he knew Elton was gay. So Axl clearly isn't the type who would 'want to beat up someone simply because he's a "faggot."'

And about Axl and Elton John, I really don't think that means anything. To say that he's not homophobic because he had respect for Elton John's music is a giant stretch in my opinion. He grew up liking his music. No, I don't think he's so small minded that he would suddenly stop liking music simply because he later learned that he was gay. In other words, Elton John was a musical influence and icon. He's an exception. He certainly does not represent Axl's views on gay people in general.

The fact that he agreed to preform on the same stage with a gay person for millions of people to see is a pretty damn good indication that he is not afraid of gay people and he doesn't hate them as a group. Not that I care if Axl was "homophobic" but the facts just don't add up.

[POPmetal]

Another thing that I admired about Kurt Cobain was that he was perhaps one of the most honest people I've ever read in interviews.

In my opinion, that was one of the most contrived interviews I've ever read. Kurt is a great promoter and he did an excellent job of pandering to the Advocate's audience with his calculated attacks on GN'R.

[JamieG]

Another thing that I admired about Kurt Cobain was that he was perhaps one of the most honest people I've ever read in interviews.

In my opinion, that was one of the most contrived interviews I've ever read. Kurt is a great promoter and he did an excellent job of pandering to the Advocate's audience with his calculated attacks on GN'R.

I wouldn't call it pandering or being a great promoter. By great promoter you imply he says stuff just to sell records, I disagree, it's just the opposite.

The number of people he would reach by doing an interview with the Advocate magazine is FAR less than what their base audience was or could have been -- as we've discussed -- high school kids who liked Nirvana because they were the cool thing at the time.

If anything, doing an interview with the Advocate could alienate many people (the macho/cool high school kids) who were far more likely to by Nirvana stuff.  

Kurt Cobain did it because he stood up for what he believed in.