The reason we're waiting....

[acompleteunknown]

This is something that I've been thinking about now for the past few days.  I know I could have posted this in the "LIVE chemistry" topic but I really wanted to talk about this in broader terms.  And more or less addressing why we've been waiting so long for this new album....



The original line-up of GNR had incredible chemistry.  And matching that chemistry is an exteremly difficult task.  This was a group of five guys who all started out struggling but all lucked together by having the same vision.  Think about how hard it is when bands change one member, let alone four (Matt, Izzy, Duff, and Slash).  Metallica took almost two years to find a replacement for Newsted.  Red Hot Chili Peppers thought they had a great replacement with Dave Navarro but the album was mediocre and they had to re-recruit Frusciante.  Bands take years finding good replacements to match the band's chemistry.  Pearl Jam went through numerous drummers, waiting for Soundgarden to break-up so they could get Matt Cameron.  REM still doesn't have a permanent drummer after almost 10 years. 

Now imagine being in Axl's shoes and having to start over from scratch.

First of all, GNR isn't some indie rock outfit that doesn't have too many expectations.  When Matt Sharp left Weezer did anyone worry too much about who would be replacing him?  No...but GNR is a rock n roll icon.  Slash is a rock legend.  You can't just go and get anyone off the street to fill his shoes.  And the hardest part, just because you find someone as talented as Slash doesn't mean that guitarist is the right fit either.  The guitarist has to fit in with Axl's voice and vision.  Finding the right match may take years.  I don't think anyone will argue that Buckethead isn't a great guitarist.  But was his style a right fit for GNR?  Who knows?  But what I can say is that when I saw GNR in LA in Dec. Finck was outstanding.  Watching him and Axl on stage together seemed liked the perfect match.  And I know for a fact that isn't something that happened overnight.

But Robin is only one piece of the puzzle!  Now Axl has to find a bassist that not only fits with his voice, he has to find a bassist that fits with Robin's style.  Then he has to find a rhythm guitarist that fits with Robin, Axl and the bassist and then he as to repeat this again with a drummer.  You can imagine why this process is taking so long.

Remember, he's not recruiting members for the Axl Rose Band.  He's hiring people to be in GNR.  There is a standard that he needs to live up to.  If he replaced the members with just about anybody, he would be doing a disservice to the the band's legacy as well as most importantly...the fans.   

If you believe that Axl is taking too long of a time to rebuild the band...then think about this...  Name one other band in the history of rock n roll that has replaced all but one original member and has remained as important, popular, and as relevant as ever.  The new band headlined major festivals last year and thousands of fans came out in droves to see them.  People didn't go out to see Axl and Slash, they went out to see GNR.  And I don't know one person that came away from a show (fan or journalist) who didn't love the new line-up.  I can't tell you how many times I read a review where the author started the article by saying..."I was skeptical about the new band, there's no way they could be as good as the original gunners..." and every single one of them ended the article extremely impressed!  I remember some of the reviews of the Buckethead years and they were mild at best.  But this time around, everyone is praising the new band.

Think of all the thousands of bands that fail every year because they don't have chemistry.  I can tell you right now, that Axl knows this more than anyone.  When new bands start up they go through many members finding the right fit.  And even when they settle on a line-up, there's no guarantee they will succeed.  But if this new band fails, there's not a lot of hurt feelings besides the band members.  If the new GNR fails, imagine how many disappointed fans there will be.  Axl has a big task to undertake.  And he's trying to do it right...because in GNR, there's no room to fail.

I more than anyone want the new album to come out.  And I can't tell you how frustrated I am.  But at the same time, instead of throwing rocks, I'd rather try to understand why this process is taking so long than just getting angry. 

[tHeElEcTrIcSiNtAr]

That was one of the best posts I have read around here in a long time.

[redx]

I don't think Buckethead fitted in with the whole 'chemistry' thing, although he did make the band sound good live.

From the picture's we have seen, few (if any) show Axl hanging out with the rest of the band. I don't think it is about chemistry, I think it's about Axl wanting to front a band that contains musicians that can play their instruments to the max. He wants the lastest incarnation of Gn'R to sound the best it possibly can when performing live (thus boost Axl's ego's more so) 

[Africa]

This is something that I've been thinking about now for the past few days.? I know I could have posted this in the "LIVE chemistry" topic but I really wanted to talk about this in broader terms.? And more or less addressing why we've been waiting so long for this new album....



The original line-up of GNR had incredible chemistry.? And matching that chemistry is an exteremly difficult task.? This was a group of five guys who all started out struggling but all lucked together by having the same vision.? Think about how hard it is when bands change one member, let alone four (Matt, Izzy, Duff, and Slash).? Metallica took almost two years to find a replacement for Newsted.? Red Hot Chili Peppers thought they had a great replacement with Dave Navarro but the album was mediocre and they had to re-recruit Frusciante.? Bands take years finding good replacements to match the band's chemistry.? Pearl Jam went through numerous drummers, waiting for Soundgarden to break-up so they could get Matt Cameron.? REM still doesn't have a permanent drummer after almost 10 years.?

Now imagine being in Axl's shoes and having to start over from scratch.

First of all, GNR isn't some indie rock outfit that doesn't have too many expectations.? When Matt Sharp left Weezer did anyone worry too much about who would be replacing him?? No...but GNR is a rock n roll icon.? Slash is a rock legend.? You can't just go and get anyone off the street to fill his shoes.? And the hardest part, just because you find someone as talented as Slash doesn't mean that guitarist is the right fit either.? The guitarist has to fit in with Axl's voice and vision.? Finding the right match may take years.? I don't think anyone will argue that Buckethead isn't a great guitarist.? But was his style a right fit for GNR?? Who knows?? But what I can say is that when I saw GNR in LA in Dec. Finck was outstanding.? Watching him and Axl on stage together seemed liked the perfect match.? And I know for a fact that isn't something that happened overnight.

But Robin is only one piece of the puzzle!? Now Axl has to find a bassist that not only fits with his voice, he has to find a bassist that fits with Robin's style.? Then he has to find a rhythm guitarist that fits with Robin, Axl and the bassist and then he as to repeat this again with a drummer.? You can imagine why this process is taking so long.

Remember, he's not recruiting members for the Axl Rose Band.? He's hiring people to be in GNR.? There is a standard that he needs to live up to.? If he replaced the members with just about anybody, he would be doing a disservice to the the band's legacy as well as most importantly...the fans.? ?

If you believe that Axl is taking too long of a time to rebuild the band...then think about this...? Name one other band in the history of rock n roll that has replaced all but one original member and has remained as important, popular, and as relevant as ever.? The new band headlined major festivals last year and thousands of fans came out in droves to see them.? People didn't go out to see Axl and Slash, they went out to see GNR.? And I don't know one person that came away from a show (fan or journalist) who didn't love the new line-up.? I can't tell you how many times I read a review where the author started the article by saying..."I was skeptical about the new band, there's no way they could be as good as the original gunners..." and every single one of them ended the article extremely impressed!? I remember some of the reviews of the Buckethead years and they were mild at best.? But this time around, everyone is praising the new band.

Think of all the thousands of bands that fail every year because they don't have chemistry.? I can tell you right now, that Axl knows this more than anyone.? When new bands start up they go through many members finding the right fit.? And even when they settle on a line-up, there's no guarantee they will succeed.? But if this new band fails, there's not a lot of hurt feelings besides the band members.? If the new GNR fails, imagine how many disappointed fans there will be.? Axl has a big task to undertake.? And he's trying to do it right...because in GNR, there's no room to fail.

I more than anyone want the new album to come out.? And I can't tell you how frustrated I am.? But at the same time, instead of throwing rocks, I'd rather try to understand why this process is taking so long than just getting angry.?

This is without a doubt one of the best posts I've read, period. You hit the nail right on the head with this one. I've thought about this a lot myself, Axl's task of putting this new band together that will match or outmatch the old, legendary one and making it all fit and get the right feel and chemistry is a task that is unmatched in music history, yet he has pulled it off with perfection. Your post pretty much said it all. Kudos.

[polluxlm]

You act like this is an ongoing process, it's not. Axl had his band in 2001, the very same band that did most of the recording for this record. So what gives? Why an additional 6 years? It's got little to do with members, but it's got everything to do with him not being satisfied with the product. If it is like you say a member problem he would have replaced parts of the band by now, that hasn't happened. The only changes that has been made have been by the member itself.

Until Axl can get rid of his demons and insecurities we won't see CD. It took fucking long when he had the original band too, it's not about that.

[Africa]

You act like this is an ongoing process, it's not. Axl had his band in 2001, the very same band that did most of the recording for this record. So what gives? Why an additional 6 years? It's got little to do with members, but it's got everything to do with him not being satisfied with the product. If it is like you say a member problem he would have replaced parts of the band by now, that hasn't happened. The only changes that has been made have been by the member itself.

Until Axl can get rid of his demons and insecurities we won't see CD. It took fucking long when he had the original band too, it's not about that.

You know, I don't usually reply to these kind of posts, but for you to say that Axl has to deal with his demons and insecurities before we see CD is utter ignorance. What do you know about what the reasons are for this project taking so long to complete? Axl has had an enormous task at hand with putting this new band together and making the best damn Guns record possible, and facing all kinds of obstacles and lawsuits along the way. Like you (completely without reason) told me, stop talking like you know when you really have no clue.

[GNRforever10]

I agree with everything you said makes sense. It takes alot of time to find that chemistry. If you look at the original GNR live at the Ritz-1988 It was amazing! AXL jumping in the crowd surfing, singing his guts out, Slash on the floor just laying the guitar perfect, Duff and everyone else in rythym. Now that is hard to replace but although I think the Buckethead era sounded very fast and heavy live! I saw The Guns last year at the Palace and let me tell you there is a mutual love and respect for all of them on stage and they were awsome! I think everyone has finally got on the same page in a group vision.

[polluxlm]

You know, I don't usually reply to these kind of posts, but for you to say that Axl has to deal with his demons and insecurities before we see CD is utter ignorance. What do you know about what the reasons are for this project taking so long to complete? Axl has had an enormous task at hand with putting this new band together and making the best damn Guns record possible, and facing all kinds of obstacles and lawsuits along the way. Like you (completely without reason) told me, stop talking like you know when you really have no clue.

How is it any more ignorance than the thousand of speculation posts written here every day, including yours. I don't agree with your hypothesis, deal with it. Fronting the GN'R name on his own is a demon, not being able to make music is a demon, not daring to release something is insecurity. There's nobody with a gun to his head.

[HBK]

Interesing Post.

In My Opinion... this Line Up is The Best OF aLL tIME...

HBK *

[Africa]

You know, I don't usually reply to these kind of posts, but for you to say that Axl has to deal with his demons and insecurities before we see CD is utter ignorance. What do you know about what the reasons are for this project taking so long to complete? Axl has had an enormous task at hand with putting this new band together and making the best damn Guns record possible, and facing all kinds of obstacles and lawsuits along the way. Like you (completely without reason) told me, stop talking like you know when you really have no clue.

How is it any more ignorance than the thousand of speculation posts written here every day, including yours. I don't agree with your hypothesis, deal with it. Fronting the GN'R name on his own is a demon, not being able to make music is a demon, not daring to release something is insecurity. There's nobody with a gun to his head.

First off, Axl had every right to do what he did, the other band members quit on him and he wanted to continue with the band, how is that a demon? "Not being able to make music"? Are you serious? Axl is a creative genius, if you don't think he is able to make music, what the hell are you doing here? "Not daring to release something"? Again, what the hell do you know about why this record is taking to long to put out? Seems to me you are doing the same speculation you accuse others of doing. You know, I used to think you made intelligent posts, thanks for changing my mind and proving me wrong. I suggest you check yourself before you make another post accusing other posters of groundless speculation.

[Scabbie]

The new band headlined major festivals last year and thousands of fans came out in droves to see them.? People didn't go out to see Axl and Slash, they went out to see GNR.? And I don't know one person that came away from a show (fan or journalist) who didn't love the new line-up.?

There were plenty of people who didn't 'love' the new line up. Did you go to Download or read Kerrang's review. A lot of people don't even know who the members are.

The fact is the band probably didn't see Axl for long periods of time, worked on solo stuff and as a result any chemistry that was there between the members fizzled out. Buckethead got fucked off and well, fucked off.

Whether Axl was in the right frame of mind to do anything is more the question - If your 'leader' isn't positive or present no matter who the members are its not going to work out. Which brings us back to the fact that the delays rest with Axl not the band. I agree with polluxlm.

But hopefully thats all been resolved and this year we will see the fruits of their labor.

[jarmo]

I more than anyone want the new album to come out.  And I can't tell you how frustrated I am.  But at the same time, instead of throwing rocks, I'd rather try to understand why this process is taking so long than just getting angry. 

Cool. 


Seems like many won't even bother trying to understand.....


It's kinda sad that some people will use their imagination to come up with all kinds of scenarios of what can go wrong with GN'R, but at the same time they just won't use that same energy to try to understand what's going on with this band.


Look at this:

You act like this is an ongoing process, it's not. Axl had his band in 2001, the very same band that did most of the recording for this record. So what gives? Why an additional 6 years? It's got little to do with members, but it's got everything to do with him not being satisfied with the product. If it is like you say a member problem he would have replaced parts of the band by now, that hasn't happened. The only changes that has been made have been by the member itself.

Until Axl can get rid of his demons and insecurities we won't see CD. It took fucking long when he had the original band too, it's not about that.

Amusing to read this guy explaining how the band works when the band members are saying everybody contributes.

So if you add two new guitar players and a new drummer to the mix, why wouldn't they be allowed to contribute?

Did you ever think that maybe they want the album to represent the current band, and not a band that existed six years ago?


Nothing has changed... Is that your new motto? This is the second time you repeat it and it's still wrong.

There were plenty of people who didn't 'love' the new line up. Did you go to Download or read Kerrang's review. A lot of people don't even know who the members are.

Do you honestly think those emo kids even gave the band an honest chance?





/jarmo

[polluxlm]

First off, Axl had every right to do what he did, the other band members quit on him and he wanted to continue with the band, how is that a demon?

The obvious thing to do would be to start a new band. He was in his 'right' if there really is such a thing, but that doesn't make it smart. Alot of weight to carry.

"Not being able to make music"? Are you serious? Axl is a creative genius, if you don't think he is able to make music, what the hell are you doing here?

He said it himself, that the lawsuits and shit in his life depressed him so much he didn't know how to put it on paper. The fact that he didn't even sing between 94 and 98 is evidence enough (source Moby).

"Not daring to release something"? Again, what the hell do you know about why this record is taking to long to put out? Seems to me you are doing the same speculation you accuse others of doing. You know, I used to think you made intelligent posts, thanks for changing my mind and proving me wrong. I suggest you check yourself before you make another post accusing other posters of groundless speculation.

I'm accusing someone now? Must have missed that part. We're all engaging in pretty much baseless speculation, yes, including me. If you want hard facts I suggest we both go do something else.

[wells]

@polluxim

your 2000+ posts unfortunately became irrelevant at some point, I really don't remember when, I think it was soon after first 10 ...


@acompleteunknown

nice post ...


edit: added unfortunately

[ppbebe]

He said it himself, that the lawsuits and shit in his life depressed him so much he didn't know how to put it on paper. The fact that he didn't even sing between 94 and 98 is evidence enough (source Moby).

you mean he didn't sing for 4 years? can you find his exact words?

[polluxlm]

Amusing to read this guy explaining how the band works when the band members are saying everybody contributes.

So if you add two new guitar players and a new drummer to the mix, why wouldn't they be allowed to contribute?

Did you ever think that maybe they want the album to represent the current band, and not a band that existed six years ago?


Nothing has changed... Is that your new motto? This is the second time you repeat it and it's still wrong.

I don't know any more about how the band works than you do, and I never said new members didn't contribute. What we can assume is that it's not any particular member not doing their parts, if not they'd most likely be out the door pretty fast. How many hours of recording, how many versions, how many edits and mixes? Probably thousands. The music is there, in loads. If after all this time it's still not good enough it's either Axls problem or some of the members need to go. Apparently it's not the latter.

And please explain to me how things have changed? They're still in the studio, they're still not releasing anything, nor music or specific info. The recording process moving forward isn't new, just an addition to the old.

[polluxlm]

He said it himself, that the lawsuits and shit in his life depressed him so much he didn't know how to put it on paper. The fact that he didn't even sing between 94 and 98 is evidence enough (source Moby).

you mean he didn't sing for 4 years? can you find his exact words?

The stuff he played me reminded me of U2?s Achtung Baby. It was powerful but groovy. They were doing everything on [audio software program] Pro Tools,? Moby remembers. ?Axl?s soft-spoken and a decent guy. The only time he got testy was when I said, ?These need vocals.?? Moby passed on the project.

You also have a bunch of interviews from the ex-members talking about the ongoing process in 94-96 and that Axl didn't really do anything besides observing and throwing around ideas.

@polluxim

your 2000+ posts unfortunately became irrelevant at some point, I really don't remember when, I think it was soon after first 10 ...

Like this one here you mean?

[acompleteunknown]

There were plenty of people who didn't 'love' the new line up. Did you go to Download or read Kerrang's review. A lot of people don't even know who the members are.

Kerrang will diss Axl Rose no matter what he does.  They're still pissed off over the whole "Get In The Ring" outing...even if they say they're not.  That's like being surprised that Hilary Clinton gave out sanwiches to homeless people and Karl Rove criticized her for it.

Also "not knowing the members" doesn't mean they don't like them.  Some people went to the shows looking for a familiarity with music they grew up with.  Having new members was I'm sure slightly disappointing...BUT very few of them have said they didn't like the music being played.

Those who bash the new band are basically the Goth kids from South Park.  They would hate the band no matter what.  The original members could all get back together and they would find a reason to hate them.  And I wouldn't be surprised if half of them didn't  even see the new band play live and merely wanted to "be cool" and jump on the negative bandwagon. 

I went to see the band in December.  I was skeptical.  I even had the stomach flu.  I came out of the show completely floored.  All I could think to myself was "they don't make rock bands like this anymore."

[ppbebe]

He said it himself, that the lawsuits and shit in his life depressed him so much he didn't know how to put it on paper. The fact that he didn't even sing between 94 and 98 is evidence enough (source Moby).

you mean he didn't sing for 4 years? can you find his exact words?

The stuff he played me reminded me of U2?s Achtung Baby. It was powerful but groovy. They were doing everything on [audio software program] Pro Tools,? Moby remembers. ?Axl?s soft-spoken and a decent guy. The only time he got testy was when I said, ?These need vocals.?? Moby passed on the project.

You also have a bunch of interviews from the ex-members talking about the ongoing process in 94-96 and that Axl didn't really do anything besides observing and throwing around ideas.

nowhere those say that he didn't sing between 94 and 98. isn't it just your speculation?

[polluxlm]

nowhere those say that he didn't sing between 94 and 98. isn't it just your speculation?

The songs didn't have any vocals, what else do you need? Moby even described him as getting 'testy' for just bringing up the subject. If that isn't indication of some sort of temporary inability I don't know what it is. What he does in the shower doesn't concern me.