The reason we're waiting....

[EstrangedReality]

This is something that I've been thinking about now for the past few days.  I know I could have posted this in the "LIVE chemistry" topic but I really wanted to talk about this in broader terms.  And more or less addressing why we've been waiting so long for this new album....



The original line-up of GNR had incredible chemistry.  And matching that chemistry is an exteremly difficult task.  This was a group of five guys who all started out struggling but all lucked together by having the same vision.  Think about how hard it is when bands change one member, let alone four (Matt, Izzy, Duff, and Slash).  Metallica took almost two years to find a replacement for Newsted.  Red Hot Chili Peppers thought they had a great replacement with Dave Navarro but the album was mediocre and they had to re-recruit Frusciante.  Bands take years finding good replacements to match the band's chemistry.  Pearl Jam went through numerous drummers, waiting for Soundgarden to break-up so they could get Matt Cameron.  REM still doesn't have a permanent drummer after almost 10 years. 

Now imagine being in Axl's shoes and having to start over from scratch.

First of all, GNR isn't some indie rock outfit that doesn't have too many expectations.  When Matt Sharp left Weezer did anyone worry too much about who would be replacing him?  No...but GNR is a rock n roll icon.  Slash is a rock legend.  You can't just go and get anyone off the street to fill his shoes.  And the hardest part, just because you find someone as talented as Slash doesn't mean that guitarist is the right fit either.  The guitarist has to fit in with Axl's voice and vision.  Finding the right match may take years.  I don't think anyone will argue that Buckethead isn't a great guitarist.  But was his style a right fit for GNR?  Who knows?  But what I can say is that when I saw GNR in LA in Dec. Finck was outstanding.  Watching him and Axl on stage together seemed liked the perfect match.  And I know for a fact that isn't something that happened overnight.

But Robin is only one piece of the puzzle!  Now Axl has to find a bassist that not only fits with his voice, he has to find a bassist that fits with Robin's style.  Then he has to find a rhythm guitarist that fits with Robin, Axl and the bassist and then he as to repeat this again with a drummer.  You can imagine why this process is taking so long.

Remember, he's not recruiting members for the Axl Rose Band.  He's hiring people to be in GNR.  There is a standard that he needs to live up to.  If he replaced the members with just about anybody, he would be doing a disservice to the the band's legacy as well as most importantly...the fans.   

If you believe that Axl is taking too long of a time to rebuild the band...then think about this...  Name one other band in the history of rock n roll that has replaced all but one original member and has remained as important, popular, and as relevant as ever.  The new band headlined major festivals last year and thousands of fans came out in droves to see them.  People didn't go out to see Axl and Slash, they went out to see GNR.  And I don't know one person that came away from a show (fan or journalist) who didn't love the new line-up.  I can't tell you how many times I read a review where the author started the article by saying..."I was skeptical about the new band, there's no way they could be as good as the original gunners..." and every single one of them ended the article extremely impressed!  I remember some of the reviews of the Buckethead years and they were mild at best.  But this time around, everyone is praising the new band.

Think of all the thousands of bands that fail every year because they don't have chemistry.  I can tell you right now, that Axl knows this more than anyone.  When new bands start up they go through many members finding the right fit.  And even when they settle on a line-up, there's no guarantee they will succeed.  But if this new band fails, there's not a lot of hurt feelings besides the band members.  If the new GNR fails, imagine how many disappointed fans there will be.  Axl has a big task to undertake.  And he's trying to do it right...because in GNR, there's no room to fail.

I more than anyone want the new album to come out.  And I can't tell you how frustrated I am.  But at the same time, instead of throwing rocks, I'd rather try to understand why this process is taking so long than just getting angry. 

Excellent post. I totally agree.

More people here could be as articulate...

[25]

Michaelangelo didn't want to paint the Sistine Chapel

Really? I hear during the work he himself went around searching for founds.

Depends on your sources 
I'm sure he tried to do the best job possible, but there isn't any doubt that he'd rather have continued working on the papal tomb. He also rejected the Pope's instructions to decorate the chapel in much gold and precious materials, which smacks of a guy trying to get fired. "No Pope Julius Part 2, I think what God would actually want is. . . "

[AxlNow]

I don't want to over simplify things. However at the same time there are some very easy explanations for why things have taken so long. Number 1. It's important that this CD reflects the current bands lineup. When various members leave it just holds up the whole process. Then a lot of re-recording has to be done. Is it possible to keep former members on the current CD? YES. Is it preferred? NO. This will be an album that is 100 percent represented by the current ?band lineup. Out with the old and in with the new. Let's stay current. It's all about NOW.

Number 2. It's not easy to be a perfectionist. Have you ever done any kind of project in your lifetime and felt that something wasn't quite right? You felt that you could have done a better job? Axl doesn't want to release something only to end up having those same feelings afterwards. Once the CD is out there it will be to late to change shit. So feel confident that once it's released you'll be geting a top notch product that will be it's very best. The band will be happy and hopefully you will be happy.

 ?Let's all stick together to ensure the bands future success. I know that we are all frustrated right now. But there is nobody more frustrated than Axl. It's a waiting game. In a sense Axl is waiting with all of us. Things are moving ahead though and it would serve everyone better if you could focus on that one point. The bands lineup is locked in. Tours are happening and you will get a polished product in the end. So go about your day as if the CD is never coming out and then you'll be happily surprised one morning when it suddenly does.

 Rock On ?

 

 ?

[Lethalis]

Number 2. It's not easy to be a perfectionist. Have you ever done any kind of project in your lifetime and felt that something wasn't quite right? You felt that you could have done a better job? Axl doesn't want to release something only to end up having those same feelings afterwards. Once the CD is out there it will be to late to change shit. So feel confident that once it's released you'll be geting a top notch product that will be it's very best. The band will be happy and hopefully you will be happy.

The problem with that though, is that the best ideas just come to you. You can't force it. I usually have the best ideas when I'm sitting on the toilet 

I release stuff in which I felt I could have done a better job all the time. I am a software developer who has to meet deadlines. I deliver stuff that works, even though I know there are better ways of doing things (but they take too much time).

And even when I have the time, I make the product nice enough to be proud of it.. but there always is a point in time where you just have to release the damn thing. Otherwise the whole point of making it might have become irrelevant (other solutions become available, the demand for the product disappears, etc).

[ppbebe]

He also rejected the Pope's instructions to decorate the chapel in much gold and precious materials, which smacks of a guy trying to get fired. "No Pope Julius Part 2, I think what God would actually want is. . . "

And the famous loincloth...he was true to his muse. Real artists have such guts ( / balls? )

[acompleteunknown]

This is a specious arguement. There is no relationship between time and building chemistry. I'll ?"name another band" for you. ?. .

Ever hear of the The Yardbirds (#89 on Rolling Stones greatest artists of all time)? A guy named Jimmy Page joined the Yardbirds in 1966 to play bass guitar. After everyone else quit in the summer of 1968. . . he hired Robert Plant , John Bohnam, and John Paul Jones to complete The Yardbirds tour of Scandinavia as contractually obligated. By the end of the year, they changed their name to . . . . let me clear my throat . . . Led Zeppelin. I think their first album came out in January 1969 - six months after he replaced everyone.

 The Yardbirds at the time were not as big as GNR in their heyday.  And like YOU said, they changed their name and became a new band.  So, it's not the perfect example.

[acompleteunknown]

I don't want to over simplify things. However at the same time there are some very easy explanations for why things have taken so long. Number 1. It's important that this CD reflects the current bands lineup. When various members leave it just holds up the whole process. Then a lot of re-recording has to be done. Is it possible to keep former members on the current CD? YES. Is it preferred? NO. This will be an album that is 100 percent represented by the current ?band lineup. Out with the old and in with the new. Let's stay current. It's all about NOW.

Number 2. It's not easy to be a perfectionist. Have you ever done any kind of project in your lifetime and felt that something wasn't quite right? You felt that you could have done a better job? Axl doesn't want to release something only to end up having those same feelings afterwards. Once the CD is out there it will be to late to change shit. So feel confident that once it's released you'll be geting a top notch product that will be it's very best. The band will be happy and hopefully you will be happy.

 ?Let's all stick together to ensure the bands future success. I know that we are all frustrated right now. But there is nobody more frustrated than Axl. It's a waiting game. In a sense Axl is waiting with all of us. Things are moving ahead though and it would serve everyone better if you could focus on that one point. The bands lineup is locked in. Tours are happening and you will get a polished product in the end. So go about your day as if the CD is never coming out and then you'll be happily surprised one morning when it suddenly does.

 Rock On ?

 

 ?

Well said.  I totally agree.

[downzy56]

There was a tentative release date issued by Axl himself, Axl saying they were gonna finish the album, a successful tour, an update saying the recording is done, it's being mixed.

/jarmo

I'll quote Shakespeare's Macbeth here:

Life?s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing.

Not calling Axl an idiot, but there has been a lot of sound and fury that, in the end, hasn't meant a lot in terms of the album's release.  I remember back in 1999 Axl saying to Kurt Lodder that they weren't doing all this work to not release the album.  That I do believe, for economic reasons more than anything else.  But eight years later, I've come to believe that assertions, performances and whatnot are nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Like Polluxlm said earlier, until there's real proof that the album is imminent, it's difficult to take anything this band says at face value.  Of the four things you mention (tentative release date, Axl saying they're going to finish the album, successful tour, and updates about recording being finished), only the successful tour is valid.  What's the point of a tentative release date when you haven't finished recording, or mixing, or mastering, and the actual release date isn't going to be anywhere near the tentative one given. 

Actions speak louder than words, and other than the tour, GNR is a tough band to defend right now.

Cheers,

Andrew

[slane92]

Whatever the reasons for the original line up breaking up,
Axl deserves enormous credit for rebuilding a band that can carry
the GNR tradition and standards.

I went to 2 shows last year, I thought the band were superb.


And now, with the imminent release of CD, I believe the band are (finally)about
to get the respect that they deserve. The music will speak for itself.

[redx]

Whatever the reasons for the original line up breaking up,
Axl deserves enormous credit for rebuilding a band that can carry
the GNR tradition and standards.

I went to 2 shows last year, I thought the band were superb.


And now, with the imminent release of CD, I believe the band are (finally)about
to get the respect that they deserve. The music will speak for itself.

From what I have read, Axl wanted to take a different direction to Slash, so they parted ways. If anything, Slash was the one who wanted to keep Gun's doing what guns had always done. What the original members should have agreed on from the out set, was no one band member should be allowed to take the name and perform under the name with a new line up. 

[ppbebe]

This is a specious arguement. There is no relationship between time and building chemistry. I'll  "name another band" for you.  . .

Ever hear of the The Yardbirds (#89 on Rolling Stones greatest artists of all time)? A guy named Jimmy Page joined the Yardbirds in 1966 to play bass guitar. After everyone else quit in the summer of 1968. . . he hired Robert Plant , John Bohnam, and John Paul Jones to complete The Yardbirds tour of Scandinavia as contractually obligated. By the end of the year, they changed their name to . . . . let me clear my throat . . . Led Zeppelin. I think their first album came out in January 1969 - six months after he replaced everyone.

 The Yardbirds at the time were not as big as GNR in their heyday.  And like YOU said, they changed their name and became a new band.  So, it's not the perfect example.

Yeah but had it not for the ex yardbird's claim on the name, perhaps we'd know the band as yardbirds.

[jarmo]

And please explain to me how things have changed? They're still in the studio, they're still not releasing anything, nor music or specific info. The recording process moving forward isn't new, just an addition to the old.

There was a tentative release date issued by Axl himself, Axl saying they were gonna finish the album, a successful tour, an update saying the recording is done, it's being mixed.


Did you see any of those in 2001?


Just by sticking to the facts, you can see that it's not the same as in 2001.




/jarmo

That depends on your definition. The words and claims are different, and I'll agree the state of the project is different as to being more complete, but they're still just words. There are no hard evidence suggesting CD is imminent. When I see a tracklist, cover art, single or Universal statement I'll jump on the train, but at this point we're still pretty much in the same mode of waiting as before.

Just words?

The recording is fucking finished and you keep repeating "it's the same"?

That's the problem with you. You won't believe what you're told. Why would you believe a track listing? It's just words you know...






/jarmo

[Crowebar]

This is a good post dude.   

I was actually just thinking the other day about some of what you wrote.   

In the sense that so many people have been bad-mouthing Axl and bitching about him. They've all pretty much blamed the whole disintegration of the original GNR on Axl. Fans of GNR and the media included.      

The thing I was thinking about was how Axl has been left, (not by his own choice I might add) with the mantle of GNR and has had to singlehandedly re-build GNR from the ground up. He could've just said fuck it and retired. It's not like he's a poor dude. Axl decided to not just say fuck it and you've got to admire and respect the guys perseverance. I'm sure that this whole journey for him, has been anything but easy or fun. Up until now of course as I really think Axl enjoyed himself a lot in 2006 and it's probably given him a bit of confidence and strength to finish what he started.   

Kudos to you Mr. Axl!!!   

[Africa]

The problem in the process stems from Axl's insecurity imo. It took him a long time to be able to do anything, and then when he finally had a product he was proud of (Oh My God) and it got a cold response, his confidence was shattered.

Do you think you know Axl? If so, think again.
Oh My God was put out by the label without Axl really agreeing to it, he was more or less pressured into putting it out.
I don't think that would shatter Axl's confidence. It's a soundtrack song, get real, he had way better tracks up his sleeve even then, even though OMG is a good song.
I hate it when "fans" think they know Axl and starts spewing out shit about his "insecurities" and drawing false conclusions. That's excactly what he hates, and yes he did say so.

[Communist China]

And I hate it when people here are unable to use the power of inference.

Super confident and pleased: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=120

Then it got the cold reception, and now it's referred to as a song that was released without Axl's permission. Clearly the public reaction affected his confidence and he was unable to admit that he was proud of Oh My God. If that isn't obvious to you, then you must believe that Axl lied in that press release about Oh My God.

[Africa]

Don't tell me what I do or don't believe, and don't try to force your views on other people.
I draw my own conclusions but I guess that's "asskissing" to you cool objective internet people.

[Skunk]

This was a good post. Stated very clearly.

And for those who seem bent on denying the relevance of any of the reasons for the long wait (as if they want to believe that the only reason the album isn't out is because Axl's being difficult)... understand that the original poster was describing ONE way in which the process was most likely difficult.
We also know that Axl spent some time learning and trying different things.
We know he felt he couldn't do a traditional record without slash.
We know he replaced members several times.
We know they now feel they've made a Guns N Roses record (meaning, he was trying to make a band that would be GNR in the way the fans want, while still letting the members be themselves and have input).
We know he wanted to revisit the way Appetite was a lot of different influences.
We know they worked on at least two albums of material.
And everyone who ever worked on it says it's amazing, but they also say the songs were in fragments and that the project was mammoth (though i think that's just Axl's process. remember the interview with the guy who mixed NR?)
My point is, no matter what, it's not like we don't know this album was a big order and a lot of work went into it.
And then, yes, there were legal problems... and you know what else? Maybe the band had lives, and things happened in those lives.

I get upset every passing year without a release too, but i just don't get being angry.
Stevie Wonders last album was his first in 10 years, but i never had a casual conversation in a bar where someone said "yeah i'm a big stevie wonder fan, but i'm so pissed at him for not releasing anything new lately, he's such a dick!"
But GNR fans say things like that all the time, and it really doesn't make much sense.

And by the way, Michaelangelo knew what God actually wanted... Chinese Democracy.

[flicknn]

So I gather from reading these pages , that the album is done , besides small items of detail.And we are just waiting patiently for a press junket of some kind offering a release date ?

[Skunk]

So I gather from reading these pages , that the album is done , besides small items of detail.And we are just waiting patiently for a press junket of some kind offering a release date ?

Recording is done, and mixing has begun. As far as i know that's the last word we got (correct me if i'm wrong).

[flicknn]

So I gather from reading these pages , that the album is done , besides small items of detail.And we are just waiting patiently for a press junket of some kind offering a release date ?

Recording is done, and mixing has begun. As far as i know that's the last word we got (correct me if i'm wrong).

Does any of you know the exact date that , this was reported ...I am trying to get a idea of how long this mastering project reflects