Question About The Creative Process

[Millions]

Just a few wee question to any of you creative/ musical types out there...... I know we can't hope to know the definite answers here, but I'd like to hear some opinions.

How does the song-writing process actually happen? I mean - in the old days I got the impression that Izzy strummed out a wee melody on an acoustic guitar or something, Slash came in, speeded it up, added some power chords, and over a while it kind of transformed, but still based on that initial melody.

But when you've got the 8 or 9 guys in the band now, how do you think it works? Is Axl the guy in charge? Do the others come to him with ideas, which he can then reject or accept? Are the other guys in the band allowed to add their own stuff - harmonies, ideas, etc, to stuff which Axl comes up with?

And with all these people in the band, each with ideas, why is it taking so long to get 12 songs worth? Is it a case of 'too many cooks', if you see what I mean? And if so, maybe its a good thing that GNR is basically an Axl dictatorship. People are always on here saying that Axl is on a power trip, but has anyone ever thought that this may actually benefit the record?

[downzy56]

Some will inevitably say, "hence why this album is taking so long, 'cause 'too many cooks' are trying to add their ingredients."  This might be so if Axl wants each band member to have his own take or involvement on the song, and that would create the situation we have today.

I'm in the band and usually how it works with us is that someone will write a song's structure and others will add to it.  Usually someone comes in with a chord progression with a melody line sung over top that forms the basis of the song.  Then we bring in drums to get a rhythm that works well with the song. 

If you take a song like Madagascar, what probably happened is that Axl was fooling around on the piano or keyboards and wrote the intro that you hear dizzy play (or perhaps dizzy wrote that, who knows at this point, I'm just assuming).  From there he probably sang the melody line, maybe with words, maybe just humming a tune.  From there the song kind of writes itself, as in what follows should sound natural.  You give breaks for guitar solos, write rhythm guitar parts, add appropriate drum lines, add the synths/sounds you want, and there you go, you have a song.

Everyone one writes differently.  Billy Joel and Keith Richards say that a lot of their song ideas come to them in dreams, and they'll wake up and write down what they can remember.  Some times you'll be walking a long and a melody comes out of nowhere, which then becomes the basis for a song.

With Axl throwing songs around six - eight people, this can really draw out the process and partly explains why the album has taken so long.  It's usually more efficient for the original author of a song to finish the song as much as he or she can before exposing it to the band.  The Beatles often did this with Lennon and McCartney bringing in songs that were 90% finished and having each other add the extra 10 percent.  I think this happened a lot for Guns with the Illusion albums; most songs were written by one or two people.

Cheers,

Andrew

[estrangedpaul]

How does the song-writing process actually happen? I mean - in the old days I got the impression that Izzy strummed out a wee melody on an acoustic guitar or something, Slash came in, speeded it up, added some power chords, and over a while it kind of transformed, but still based on that initial melody.

Yeah in a recent interview with Slash about Appetite For Destruction, he was talking about how Izzy/Duff/West Arkeen would write stuff on Acoustic or even beatnik-syle on It's So Easy, and Slash would be the guy who'd come in and turn the volume up to 11. Lyrics would usually be written afterwards. Many songs written for the Illusions were tracks which Duff, Slash and Adler wrote together and it just so happened that lyrics Axl had written would fit those songs really well so that's how the songs came together. Izzy tended to work on his own at this time writing lyrics and music together. Axl also was the solo-credit on songs like Dead Horse and Estranged, where Slash again came in and turned the volume up to 11. So, all those songs came from different sources.

I'd imagine the current process to be more like the Illusions - sometimes Axl writes some music and lyrics and everyone else comes in and adds contributions, sometimes Finck or Stinson or Dizzy writes music, Axl then writes lyrics, Pittman and Axl sometimes write together. One thing the original GnR rarely did was write music around lyrics already written by Axl, so whether this happens now I don't know.

But when you've got the 8 or 9 guys in the band now, how do you think it works? Is Axl the guy in charge? Do the others come to him with ideas, which he can then reject or accept?

I remember Axl was talking to some fan and told her that each band member brings ideas to the table and Axl decides whether they're worthwhile or not, and that's also how it worked with the old band. Considering what happened the original Snakepit album, this is probably correct. People could consider this power-tripping but I think having one person deciding the direction of the band can be necessary, think Jimmy Page in Led Zeppelin, Hetfield (well, Ulrich too) in Metallica,  etc.

Are the other guys in the band allowed to add their own stuff - harmonies, ideas, etc, to stuff which Axl comes up with?

Funny that you used the word 'allowed'. Quite clearly Axl doesn't write every single Guitar, keyboard part lol. The band had probably originally written Chinese Democracy but then Pittman came in and put that extra synth part on the intro. Axl liked it so it stayed. Also you're assuming every song starts with Axl. Think Better - Robin came in with a riff,  Axl thought it was cool and wrote some lyrics for it.

And with all these people in the band, each with ideas, why is it taking so long to get 12 songs worth? Is it a case of 'too many cooks', if you see what I mean? And if so, maybe its a good thing that GNR is basically an Axl dictatorship. People are always on here saying that Axl is on a power trip, but has anyone ever thought that this may actually benefit the record?

Well I'm sure they had 12 songs worth a long time ago and probably have at least three times that to choose from. But all those people in the band means loads of different versions of each song (think Better - original demo, live version from european tour, live version from Inland Invasion with longer solo, second demo, etc. or the Blues - 2002 version vs. 2006 version), loads of different parts, complicated mixing. Remember songwriting is one part of completing a song. I've written the music for songs in five minutes that took hours to record and mix. We all know Axl is a perfectionist and chances are if he doesn't like how a song sounds he'll scrap it and start recording all over again.

[jarmo]

I suspect it's more of a group effort than in the past.

Somebody brings in an idea and they work on it together.




/jarmo

[Neemo]

i thought that people went in and recorded their stuff then axl assembled the peices into rough songs then they ironed it all out after taht....nobody knows for sure though, its jsut what i understand from various articles

[polluxlm]

From what I've gathered over the years it goes something like this:

The members (excluding Axl) comes up with parts either individually or in jamming sessions (most likely the bulk comes from the former) and record it. Those tapes are sent to Axl who picks the stuff he thinks got potential and they go back with the selected parts and expand on it, and so the circle goes on until a song, or complete parts for a song is created.

When that is done Axl comes in and tries to write lyrics to the parts (undisputed fact, quote by himself).

There are of course other things and approaches going on, but to my understanding this is how the groundwork is done. Think about this the next time you listen to the leaks and you'll see that it fits pretty well.

[Jackamo!]

It's a group effort, they pass the song around the table.

[magnumS]

I perosnally sit down and write songs , mainly my songs are very expressive
i express what i feel into creative great songs with metaphors and such
when i have a band
im on a powertrip yea , i gota vision, its my road and im gona drive through it.

[chineseroses]

I think all members input, and come up with ideas. thats why theres been like 90 songs written,  and 85% of them unfinished. On The Blues, Dizzy wrote the music, Axl wrote the lyrics.

[Disco Volante]

"The process of making the GN'R record is a long process to begin with. Because basically, Axl as a producer is trying to get the best out of eight guys and get them all in a song, like trying to pull everyone in. You know, mush it together like a fucking piece of clay or something. Trying to form a piece of art work out of it. It takes time.

It's not like when I was in the Replacements, Paul would come to rehearsal with a couple of songs. "Ok, this is how they go, watch me play the chords," we play it, go to the studio and knock it down in an hour. It's not like that.

He has a way of working with people and pulling them in. Get you to bring something to the plate that's gonna be special and cool for that song. And it just takes a long time. Because you got eight guys you know. So that process takes a while."

Tommy Stinson


Doesn't sound like Axl is a dictator at all to me.  He's trying to get everyone involved on every song.

[darkmonth]

I suspect it's more of a group effort than in the past.

Somebody brings in an idea and they work on it together.




/jarmo

A lot of the time that's how the old band was too.  Arrangements and melodies are worked and added to and changed naturally when ANY band jams.  You saying what you just said shows a slight lack of knowledge about how a 'band' works.  But that's cool.  I just think you'll find that it's exactly the same process now as it was back then.  Almost all bands work the same way.  Keith Richards may have written the backbone of the music that you hear the stones play, but I GUARANTEE you, the drummer and bass player and lead guitarist put ideas in, said "how about this ... " etc....

Otherwise you're working a machine.  These are organic processes.  It's why they're 'bands' and not just one guy calling every shot.

[Lucky]

there was some interview by Dizzy I think at certain point that adresses this.

something about this guy comes up with this idea, than it goes back, and that guy does that, and then back to the guy no1 etc. etc.

IMO; the greatest product would be to get the guys togather in a room for days and let them jam.
no distractions, no nothing, just alcohol, and music...


like get them on a month long gay cruise, so they'd have to be concentrated only on work, and saving their virginity 

[freedom78]

In the shower. 

[jarmo]

I suspect it's more of a group effort than in the past.

Somebody brings in an idea and they work on it together.




/jarmo

A lot of the time that's how the old band was too.  Arrangements and melodies are worked and added to and changed naturally when ANY band jams.  You saying what you just said shows a slight lack of knowledge about how a 'band' works.  But that's cool. 

Considering none of us were there when the songs were written, I think it's a pretty bold statement to say that's how the old band was just so you can show that I lack knowledge in the field.

I said "I suspect" simply because, for example, Izzy used to bring in several songs that were basically finished.


This time I suspect somebody brought in an idea and they worked on it instead of just "play this song I have written, it goes like this".


Even though I've never been in a band, and you have, doesn't mean it makes you an authority on how the song writing process in GN'R is/was. Maybe if you were in GN'R you might have an idea, but as far as I remember you weren't....


/jarmo

[Lucky]

Maybe if you were in GN'R you might have an idea, but as far as I remember you weren't....


/jarmo

you never know... lots of people have gone through that band over the past 15 years