Gunsnroses.com updated with CD update

[JuicySwoos]

You seem to confuse Axl with somebody like Gene Simmons. Compare those two and you'll notice the difference.
/jarmo

Hey fuck off man. If Gene and Paul REALLLLY wanted Ace and Pete back again, they could give them the right price(because they actually have it without having to do tours for extra funds).? If you haven't noticed, guns has their name on pretty much everything these days too, from candles to dartboards to baby clothes to blankets and clocks. When you really think about it, Axl and Gene have alot in common. Ace and pete left in the early 80's...they got theirselves a new band and continued touring....those guys left/got fired(much like bucket) and they replaced them too and kept touring BUT you know what the difference is, KISS put albums out year after year from creatures to carnival of souls. So if you are gunna take a dig at a band who continuously put albums out for nearly 25 years, maybe you need to get your shit straight first instead of just reading dumfuck sites like blabbermouth. So yeah, guess what someone did notice the fuckin' difference. GENE and ANY OTHER members of KISS are fucking workhorses and Axl is not. Sorry. You can ban me now ya dumb fuck.

Wow, someone is a militant Kiss fan.  I know a couple of those people, and they would want fight me if I said anything remotely negative about Kiss, so this response was not a surprise.

[JimMorrison4]

True.

And I agree that bands tour for several reasons. But to deny that money is one of them is silly.

[polluxlm]

True.

And I agree that bands tour for several reasons. But to deny that money is one of them is silly.

Money is part of almost everything. What we're discussing is if it's the primary motivation.

[JuicySwoos]

Even if money is the reason, this bitchfest started by someone saying that Axl's is just taking money from the fans, which is crap. Axl puts on a show that is worth every cent, so his what if he is doing it for money, for frequent flier miles, world peace, dolphins, whatever. ?

[philspectorshotme]

uh, hate to be a party pooper but what does this have to do with the del piece?
the statement was bullshit, of corse. throw the dogs a bone to sedate them for a while long. typical bullshit. i'm surprised that people buy into it as some sort of genuine grace bestowed upon us peasants by the gnr gods, but i'm also surprised people get angry over it. me, i'm just war-weary.

[Bodhi]

The "free" Ozzfest is going to suck...why? because it is only going to increase the amount of trashy degenerate type of people that go to those things....i go to every ozzfest and am always sickened by the types of trash that I see...now that it is free it is only going to get worse...at least the cover charge to get in kept some trash out...now its going to be a free for all......oh yeah and what a great guy Ozzy is with his "free" show....if by "free" you mean 4 dollar water, 9 dollar hot dogs, 8 dollar beers and 40 dollar t shirts...you are right....what a deal....

[BBF Rocks]

uh, hate to be a party pooper but what does this have to do with the del piece?
the statement was bullshit, of corse. throw the dogs a bone to sedate them for a while long. typical bullshit. i'm surprised that people buy into it as some sort of genuine grace bestowed upon us peasants by the gnr gods, but i'm also surprised people get angry over it. me, i'm just war-weary.

it's bullshit when they update us saying the recording is finally finished?
people like you shouldn't get to call themselves fans.

[grog mug]

Well I guess we all knew the March 6 date was out the window the moment we saw TENTATIVE in front of it.  They need to let us know when the album will be done mixing!

[pilferk]

Your legal knowledge is pretty slim. ?First of all signing contracts and such are not going to slow down the album and would have nothing to do with the legal process. If Axl was a "defendant" as you claim then that of course would be a civil matter, or are you saying that he is having criminal problems. ?99% of cases do not go to court, however, how do you notify a party you have a complaint against them if you dont file a complaint. ?You are suggesting people are calling Axl up and saying "I am going to sue you" and his lawyers just settle?

As I said, there are many ?more "legal issues" than just civil suits. ?You're assuming there is some sort of "suit" to address, and not existing agreements to interpret, enforce, and existing/previous relationships to enforce or work through (for example, the Guns and Rose partnership agreement). ?There's a lot more to corporate law than you seem to be either aware of or willing to address.

This is such lack of knowledge that its almost impossible to argue with. ?First you file a complaint, you rarely ever are in contact directly with the other party.

In civil suits between individuals (people), yes...most suits are served "blind". ?In corporate law, that is far, far, far less likely to be the case. ?Very often the complaintant's legal representatives have already contacted the corporation looking to have a compaint addressed. ?I can certainly see situations where that could be the case in Axl's legal wranglings. ?Sometimes those initial complaints are resolved LONG before they make it to actual court filings. ?That you're not aware of that makes me question the depth of your experience in this area.

?Those complaints are kept on record. ?Second once the complaint is filed you file with the court a request for discovery. ?I highly doubt all of these legal proceedings are going on without any discovery. ?How about this you give me a legal issue that could possibly be holding Axl up, and I will just explain to you the procedure that attorneys use to settle or dismiss these complaints.

Thanks, but I interact, daily, with some of the brightest legal minds in the country. ?If I want legal advice, I'll talk to them instead of someone online purporting to have a legal degree, not displaying credentialing from any bar association, and dishing out their legal opinions (which, FYI, unless I'm mistaken, is against the bars ethics guidlines).

?And in case someone says "youre not Axl's lawyer etc..." these rules are mandatory. ?I am actually sitting here right now staring at the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, lawyers have to follow these rules if they dont they get disbarred. ?I get enough of law in my regular life and would rather not discuss it on here, so if you dont know about law why not just stop talking about it because its just ignorant. ?"the best legal teams never file motions?" ?are you nuts, thats all the best legal teams do. ?Motions for summary judgment, motions for protective orders, motions to compel etc...

I would venture you've displayed more real world ignorance of corporate and civil law than just about anyone posting in this thread...and they don't have your reported degree, either.  You seem to know procedure, but not practice.  I have to wonder why that is. JA, maybe?

Don't misquote me. ?The best legal teams are very good at brokering deal without allowing a complaint to either make it to a filing, or at least before they see the inside of a courtroom. ?Ask a good corporate attorney how much time they spend actually litigating vs responding to "legal issues" that never seen court proceedings. ?Obviously you'll be surprised at their response, given your posts here.

As for renegotiations this is another baseless argument thats hard to argue with. ?The NFL players union have written into their contracts the right to sit out seasons and not get paid in attempts to renegotiate. ?This was done so because the NFL owners wanted the right to terminate contracts at will. ?In Geffen and in most Labels contracts, (they all pretty much copy eachothers forms) they do not add in any renegotiations. ?Why on earth would any company pay for something and before getting the reward for their investment allow the artist to hold them hostage? ?Heres whatll happen if Axl tries to negotiate. ?The record company would sue Axl to follow the contract and demand specific performance (i.e. turning over the album) or damages. ?Its happened before. ?Again if you want to know about album contract forms go down to any law library and you can see the form that Geffen uses. ?There are many places to add demands or certian payment structures, there is no spot to renegotiate before the cd is turned over to the record company.

 ?They could sue for retention of any master recordings, but they would be functionally useless if there wasn't "finished" material to go along with it. ?In addition, if they did indeed cut off funding back in '04, they would not even have access to any masters recorded after that...because Axl would have been paying the bills at the recording studios. ?So, in THAT situation, Axl has the label over a barrell, so to speak, to force renegotiation. ?MANY artists have done it previously (Prince, for example, but there have been others) and they've done exactly what I suggested Axl could do: ?Hold back recorded material to "urge" the record company to renegotiate. ?And oftentimes it is in the record labels benefit to just renegotiate, rather than call any "bluff" by the artist....cheaper, more productive, and more profitable. ?That you're not familiar with past precedent on this issue, again, seems to indicate your "legal knowledge" isn't comprehensive enough to comment.

In addition to all that, every one ofl your points assume direct legal action. ?There are SOOO many other "legal issues", that would only END in legal action, it would take volumes (which, FYI, you should have read if you have a legal degree) to go through them all. Cease and Desists, for example. ?Notice of copyright infringment, for example. ?The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.

[philspectorshotme]

AG: man, you have a short fuse. i've been genial in two threads and you've jumped down my throat twice. chill, take a step back and look at the wider picture. the statement is a tool to deflect attention away from the fact that march 6th isn't happening.
we're to rejoice that an album 10 or so years in the making has finished being recorded?! gimme a break.

[JimMorrison4]

The "free" Ozzfest is going to suck...why? because it is only going to increase the amount of trashy degenerate type of people that go to those things....i go to every ozzfest and am always sickened by the types of trash that I see...now that it is free it is only going to get worse...at least the cover charge to get in kept some trash out...now its going to be a free for all......oh yeah and what a great guy Ozzy is with his "free" show....if by "free" you mean 4 dollar water, 9 dollar hot dogs, 8 dollar beers and 40 dollar t shirts...you are right....what a deal....

Typically bands don't make money from the concession stands.

I'm curious as to what your definition of "trash" is and how you, while in their company and enjoying the same show, are any different.

[KeVoRkIaN]

The "free" Ozzfest is going to suck...why? because it is only going to increase the amount of trashy degenerate type of people that go to those things....i go to every ozzfest and am always sickened by the types of trash that I see...now that it is free it is only going to get worse...at least the cover charge to get in kept some trash out...now its going to be a free for all......oh yeah and what a great guy Ozzy is with his "free" show....if by "free" you mean 4 dollar water, 9 dollar hot dogs, 8 dollar beers and 40 dollar t shirts...you are right....what a deal....

I agree with everything you say - but 8 dollar beers are a steal at most concerts!!!

[AxlRose4eva1]

In case people were confused, I love GNR will buy the album, my main point wasnt money, but seriously a GNR t-shirt at a show costs 30 bucks. ?Pollux was way more clear and right than me it is about ego mostly. ?Oh and Axl has said several times throughout his career and done many things throughout his career to prove that its about him and not the fans. ?I am not saying fans are meaningless to him, but he isnt out to please us. ?I mean even Jericho told a story about Axl being a dick to a young fan "Sure ill brb with an autograph." ?I think thats hilarious and awesome. ?He isnt a religious figure, he isnt a politician and hes not out to please us, but everyone here acts like "oh hes trying the best for us." ?Whatever, I dont wanna get banned so I wont keep talking about it, but seriously just look at the 2001 Spin article (pretty sure thats the year and article i cant remember this shit and dont know how some of you people do), Axl said it could all be over today and he would be fine because HE has the music and can listen to it whenever he wants. ?Its about him, hes an asshole, HE ADMITS IT. ?I guess what I appreciate in this band isnt what you guys do. ?I loved the fact that Axl hasnt been fake and I guess thats why these "updates" piss me off, cause they string fans along. ?You can call me speculative cause I quote axl and tourmates comments on him, but someone said what "axl would probably say about my comments," ?yeah...thats not speculative at all.

Hell, I dont care if Axl would like me, maybe he wouldnt, i highly doubt he would hang out with more than like 2 people who post on this board (jarmo, mysteron maybe), I am just a fan who loves this band, wants the music, i know I dont make a difference. ?I will probably my whole life financially support this band by buying albums and merchandise, going to see concerts etc... and like a fan of a sports team or any other entertainment venue i will bitch. ?What makes bitching about this stuff any different than bitching about Tony Romo's bumbled snap or Bill Buckner. ?I think this Del James statement was garbage and is just stringing people along with more vague statements. ?I dont think GNR should tour without an album and I also think The Wire shouldnt have killed off Stringer Bell and Brodie, seriously this is a message board, this is a music group, this isnt church and we arent talking about God.

Again people argue and bitch cause theres no CD, everyone here is a fan.

As for the nonsense Pilferk is saying haha its just insane. ?First of all it is not against any ethics to talk about the legal issues around any case that you are not apart of. ?As I am saying there is no case or cases. ?You really know nothing of the law. ?First of all the two legal issues Cease and Desists and Notice of Copyright infringements are almost always first filed with a court otherwise theres no teeth behind them, what would the point be of just sending that to Axl? ?It would make no sense. ?Second of all, youre saying that the record company invests 10 million into an album and then stops paying for it and somehow Axl owns the rights to everything he has worked on since 2004? ?Thats just nonsense and rather than going into the legal issues behind why thats not true, look how the record company forced Axl to accept the GH track list. ?You also notice how that case was immediately reported, thats because it was an actual legal issue that was filed with the court. ?The record company was allowed to do that to regain some of their lossed investments, they obviously own the rights now to pretty much anything Axl does and did that in lieu of bringing a suit for breach of contract for not turning in an album. ?I guarantee if anyone is trying to renegotiate it would be the record company. ?Also real fast youre the one who said Axl was probably the "defendant" in these cases. ?That completely implies court action. ?If you work at a legal firm you most likely have lexisnexis.com or Westlaw.com, search for Axl or GUns n Roses, they have been involved in a lot of cases, very few see trial, most are settled, but you can still see those. ?The court is used in almost every dispute even though 99% see trial. ? Ugh, enough about law, ill talk about it during the day when im at work, but not at night.

[guns_n_motley]

most shirts at shows by any band cost 30$$

[pilferk]

As for the nonsense Pilferk is saying haha its just insane. ?First of all it is not against any ethics to talk about the legal issues around any case that you are not apart of. ?

It is against the ethics code of every state bar association in the country to dispense legal advice, interpretation, or opinion in public or private, if you are an accredited member of the bar, without identifying yourself and providing credentials. ?If you'd like, contact a presiding member of your state bar and ask them.

As I am saying there is no case or cases. ?You really know nothing of the law.

Apparently I seem ?to know more than you, at least on this issue. ?I've said there are no cases. ?Cases are only initiated on filings. I've said, specifically, they are dealing with "legal issues" that have not evolved into cases, or do not need to evolve into cases.

?First of all the two legal issues Cease and Desists and Notice of Copyright infringements are almost always first filed with a court otherwise theres no teeth behind them, what would the point be of just sending that to Axl?

No, Axl's legal team would be doing the sending. ?And they are not usually filed first with the court. ?First parties are notified of the infringemnt or offending action and are given the opportunity to correct it (witness the letters that went out to websites hosting the leaks AND the letter sent to Eddie Trunk) prior to court filings. ?Notice of Copyright infringement is often handled the same way. ?Call a copyright attorney and ask them.

?It would make no sense. ?Second of all, youre saying that the record company invests 10 million into an album and then stops paying for it and somehow Axl owns the rights to everything he has worked on since 2004? ?Thats just nonsense and rather than going into the legal issues behind why thats not true, look how the record company forced Axl to accept the GH track list.

Are there legal issues? Yes. ?Are they largely enforceable? No. ?Because if the label isn't paying the studios bills, they have no way to compel them to release master recordings to them, other than a court order.? And if Axl is keeping the material "local" to him, again, short of a court order (which could damage any chance of geting the artist to produce a finished product). ?They have to depend on Axl to do it. ?Which leads us right back to the "over the barrell" point.? They COULD sue him, and spend tons of money on the suit, to compel him to either pay up or turn over existing material, but the resulting bad press, the lack of involvement from the artist on the finished product, and other issues, could make the material fundamentally worthless.? It's a game of chicken, in essence, and one the artist often wins.

As for not "going into the legal issues", I rather suspect it's because you can't explain them.

GH is hardly the same thing. ?They already possessed the master recordings. ?2 completely seperate legal issues. ?You not recognizing that is rather interesting

?You also notice how that case was immediately reported, thats because it was an actual legal issue that was filed with the court. ?The record company was allowed to do that to regain some of their lossed investments, they obviously own the rights now to pretty much anything Axl does and did that in lieu of bringing a suit for breach of contract for not turning in an album.

It was public because they filed suit....and is completely different than anything regarding CD material. ?Look at what happened with Prince. ?Know the precedent.

?I guarantee if anyone is trying to renegotiate it would be the record company. ?Also real fast youre the one who said Axl was probably the "defendant" in these cases. ?That completely implies court action. ?If you work at a legal firm you most likely have lexisnexis.com or Westlaw.com, search for Axl or GUns n Roses, they have been involved in a lot of cases, very few see trial, most are settled, but you can still see those. ?The court is used in almost every dispute even though 99% see trial. ? Ugh, enough about law, ill talk about it during the day when im at work, but not at night.

Your "gaurentee" isn't really worth anything since you're not directly involved in the process.

I used the term "defendant" in relation to POSSIBLE legal actioin, rather than filed legal action. ?It was an economy of language rather than an indication of status.

I don't work in a law firm. ?Better than that, IMHO.

[damnthehaters]

I wouldn't say that all Axl cares about is money. ?But I also wouldn't say that he doesn't care about money.

Lets face it, we all have to make a living. ?Yeah, Axl has put $13 million into a CD. ?In return, he's gonna do everything he can to make sure he gets it back. ?That includes selling pricy tickets, merchandise at shows, and eventually properly promoting the new album. ?

You don't just spend $13 million in making something and not care about getting something in return. ?Everybody likes money! ?And if they don't, that's because they haven't gotten it yet. ? ? ?

 ?

[jarmo]

I mean even Jericho told a story about Axl being a dick to a young fan "Sure ill brb with an autograph."  I think thats hilarious and awesome. 

What a great piece of evidence.... 


An artist who creates music for him- or herself is far better than somebody who makes music for the public.

So thank God if Axl says he creates music for himself.

But I still don't buy the whole "he doesn't care for his fans" just because he creates music for himself or because he didn't sign an autograph in 1987. 



/jarmo

[polluxlm]

I wouldn't say that all Axl cares about is money. ?But I also wouldn't say that he doesn't care about money.

Lets face it, we all have to make a living. ?Yeah, Axl has put $13 million into a CD. ?In return, he's gonna do everything he can to make sure he gets it back. ?That includes selling pricy tickets, merchandise at shows, and eventually properly promoting the new album. ?

You don't just spend $13 million in making something and not care about getting something in return. ?Everybody likes money! ?And if they don't, that's because they haven't gotten it yet. ? ? ?

 ?

Axl made his living 19 years ago, and he has never put 13 million in this project.

[SterileEyes]

What a brilliant notion: Axl does what he does for ego and money just like um, anyone that 'sells a product' and 'puts their name on something'. No shit. 

But seriously, some of you act as though you've been starving and he's been dangling a steak in front of your face for ten years.

He's a human being who's nervous about putting his name on the line with this album. He wants it done right, no matter what it costs HIM (anyone who read the NYTimes article knows its his responsibility to fund the completion of the record).

Delaying the album, remixing things, re-recording things...that's obviously 'art before money' right there.

I don't quite understand some of your logic that Axl's supposed 'lying to the fans', 'disappointing fans', 'making excuses' and 'letting the new guys record their parts' is somehow 'ripping you off' or 'all about money'.

Yeah, I admit it, I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't much good news reported last night (Jarmo and I discussed whether or not the album was finished a couple of days ago, this note is about what I expected). I wasn't expecting it to come out in March, but I was hoping for (not "expecting" like some of you) a good update and what we got was a bare minimum amount of info.

Keywords there are 'a bit disappointed'. Not angry, not pissed off, not livid, not hating life. Life goes on. When it comes out, great. If not, ok then.

An obvious point some of you seem to need to be reminded of: Axl does not wake up every morning and think to himself "gee, how can I further piss off my fans today?"

Being a GN'R fan and complaining bitterly about having to wait...is like being really into Cold Stone or McDonalds and then complaining bitterly about how fat you are.

[BBF Rocks]

anyone whos disappointed that ron and frank are on CD should just NOT buy the album.
real fans are welcoming any news about this record, whereas you wanna dictate axl.
and yeah he makes the music for himself but also for us, to meet previous standards.