Do you believe in god? Why?

[Rockin' Rose]

Well I don't believe in god and I really can't see a reason why some people do so I would like to know why do people believe in god.

Is it because they are scared about the meaning of life, why are we here? There has to be a purpose for us being here!

What is it, why?

[Mal Brossard]

Let me preface this by stating that I've been an atheist my whole life, and now consider myself a Buddhist atheist.

The belief in a god started out as a hope to explain all we didn't know in life.  Go back about 5,000 years, and you don't have the science you have now to explain things.  So everything came from the gods.  Gods were created to fit whatever purpose the people had at the time.  If you needed a victory in war, or in a fight against something, you had a warlike, angry god (hence the early, vengeful god in the Bible).  The Greeks and Romans had numerous gods for different purposes.

Fast forward to today.  Many people still believe in a god.  For some, it was just the way they were raised.  Some are taught the Bible is infallible, God's perfect word, and the ultimate truth.  Some find a god in hopes of stabilizing their life.  A friend of mine was raised Catholic, strayed from it the last few years, and is now greatly contemplating a return to it to find some stability.

There really is no single reason one believes in a god, or chooses not to believe.  I'm an atheist because I think belief in a god makes little sense (if the universe were the size of Boston Common, the earth would be about the size of a pea-- and I'm supposed to believe that there is some all-knowing, all-powerful creature out there who cares about what a speck on a pea does?).  Before someone tries to comment, no, the Buddha is not a god.  He is just an ordinary man whom I model my actions after.

This isn't to say I hate those who choose to believe in a god.  This also doesn't mean there's no reason for me to be moral if there's no higher authority for me to answer to (I've had people try to claim that on me).  However, I still have to question the logic in following a 2,000+ year old book that claims to be the full, unedited, 100% truth on everything in the world.  Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

[MCT]

I'm agnostic.........

[Izzy]

I know God doesn't exist - but choose to believe anyway

Maybe that doesn't make sense - but hell, what does when it comes to religion?

[ppbebe]

I?m a god.

[Rockin' Rose]

I know aliens do exist (I think it's stupid not to believe they don't) and I believe in them

People say I'm crazy  

Though I don't think they have visited Earth.

[loretian]

Originally, I believed in God because that's what my parents taught me, and I just gew up believing.

Since I had a big fallout with my Church, I reconsidered a lot of my believes, and I still believe (even if I have a problem with a lot of modern Church institutions)

I do make a distinction between Christianity and other religions, and I believe Jesus is the one true savior.   It's common and understandable to respond by saying "why do you think your God is real and not the others?", and all I can say is, look at the facts, what we do know - research the histories and what's happened.

Contrary to what Izzy says, God is the one thing that makes sense in my fucked up life and in this fucked up world.   I've felt God, God has moved me, and God has saved me time and time again, when I fuck up everything so bad, and can't escape my own flaws - all I do is look up, ask him for a way out, and it's always there, even if the path is not an easy one.

Additionally, there's so many historical reasons for believing it.  I can go into more detail into this, but, aside from the King James version, the New Testamant in all major Bible releases is basically 99.9% accurate to the original (they've have a number of copies from as early as 50 years or so after all the books were bound together), and all the other historical recordings of the time.

There was a Jesus, and he did rise from the dead after being crucified, witnessed by thousands of people, and not a single one disputed it.   No historical records of the time argue against it.  It was a major event, and everyone, even those who didn't believe in what Jesus taught, acknowledged it, according to what written history we do have.  Either the greatest historical revision of basically the greatest event ever in history occurred, and noone, anywhere, let anything out or recorded anything about it - remember, this would have to involve thousands and thousands of people - or, it really did happen.

And if the new testament is true, then so is the old.

Coupled with my own personal experiences, with God fulfilling everything he claims he would do according to the Bible, and all the historical reasons that back it up, I do believe.

America is a great proof of Christiantiy, in my opinion.  The constitution and the founders of our country all believed in the Christian way of life, and the ideals it taught us.   And coincidently, we've reaped incredible success: hard work, public education, compassion, self dependence, etc. the list goes on.  This is all straight from the Bible, and it works.  Compare this to Islam, which breeds a culture of backwardsness and impedes progress.

Edit: A lot of people look at the question of the existance of God or some greater purpose as an unanswerable rhetorical one, but I say otherwise.  You need to ask questions, and work to find answers, and be willing to accept some harsh truths about life, and yourself.   Many people don't like the answers that Christianity provides: that they cannot save themselves, and they are at heart, evil, and flawed, and the only salvation comes from giving up, and letting someone greater save them.

[kujo722]

These song lyrics express my sentiments towards the subject:


Hey there Lord it's me
I wondered if you're free
Or not asleep
This just won't keep
It seems I just don't see

Why all the things we asked
Or prayed would come to pass
Have gone unheard
Like silent words
That slip into the past

For Lord they're not schemes
Can't you tell dreams
Why do you
Let them slip by
Never even tried

It isn't you don't hear
There's far too many tears
Or can't you feel
Are we unreal
To one who knows no peers

You say we must pay dues
But still I am confused
I need to walk
And with you talk
Instead of to statues

For Lord they're not schemes
Can't you tell dreams
Why do you
Let them slip by
Never even tried

You take all the fame
But who'll accept the blame
For all the hurts
Down here on earth
Unnecessary pain

For surely you must care
Or are you only air
Built in out minds
When we're in binds
And never really there

And can we be tired of you
Is that something that we're allowed to do
For even the blind change their view
And it's time we tried something new

And so I pled my case
I'll now pull my escape
Didn't mean to doubt
What it's about
Seems I forgot my place

But if you find the time
Please change the story line
Or give a call
Explain it all
I'll even leave the dime

[Rockin' Rose]

Ok how about this.

In the bible I think there is a phrase, in the 10 commendments?

"Thou shalt not kill"

If this is a direct "order" from the god, do you think that people who have broken this, (killed other people) are forgiven this sin and have been given access to heaven?

[chineseilusions]

Ok how about this.

In the bible I think there is a phrase, in the 10 commendments?

"Thou shalt not kill"

If this is a direct "order" from the god, do you think that people who have broken this, (killed other people) are forgiven this sin and have been given access to heaven?

Ok I would like to start off by saying I do believe in God I once was  a christian but due to some wrong doing within my church I quit going and do plan to go back.

As for your question The 10 commandments were the old law given to mosses by God and the law changed begining in the new testement like instead an eye for an eye type thing it turned into turn the other cheek.You ask if  a person murders will they be given access to heaven under the old law no but now through repenting believing confession of jesus as the son of God and baptism all sins will be forgave. The only sin that is not forgivable is blastphomy of the Holy spirit.

I do not condim anyone for not believing in God that is not my job. I respect everones right to their own beleif as long as they respect mine.

[loretian]

Ok how about this.

In the bible I think there is a phrase, in the 10 commendments?

"Thou shalt not kill"

If this is a direct "order" from the god, do you think that people who have broken this, (killed other people) are forgiven this sin and have been given access to heaven?

Well, you have to read the whole Bible.  According to the new testament, God will forgive us for every single sin, regardless of how great or devastating.   If we simply ask for forgiveness, we will be given it, it's that simple.  He knows we're imperfect.

It's also important to note what is meant by "Do not kill" - it means do not murder, ie, illegally kill someone. The other parts of the Bible not shown    here clearly illuminate that killing in a just war, or self-defense, etc is not a violation of God's law.

[Evolution]

i dont believe in god but i do believe there is something higher almost like a god

[SLCPUNK]

I would say that Buddhism is more my route. However I still believe in God as well. I believe in a caring compassionate God, not a God that punishes us for our sins. I believe we create our own suffering and our own pleasures in this life. I also believe in Karma 100%. I've seen it too often to not believe it.

Something, somebody had to create us however. There is something bigger than us for sure. I'm not sure what, and I don't have to know right now. All I can do is try to be selfless and honest with myself and others. Hopefully after that everything will fall into place.

[Doc Emmett Brown]

I know aliens do exist (I think it's stupid not to believe they don't) and I believe in them

I believe in aliens more so than in God.  The whole concept of an angry God obsessed with vengeance and tormenting poor errant souls in the Hell fire is so... yawn.  

I wonder if aliens believe in God - and do they create it in their own image?  

And do they kill each other over their religious beliefs?  Imagine an alien Spanish Inquistion, an alien Crusades, an alien jihad.  

There might a higher power out there, but it's an imperfect being like all of us. And who created it?  Another higher higher power?  And who created that one? Another higher higher higher power?  And so on.  Like those cool Russian dolls who live inside each other - what are they called again?

People say I'm crazy  

Let's be crazy together.  Strength in numbers, ya know.

Though I don't think they have visited Earth.

The Man Who Fell to Earth.  

[SLCPUNK]

America is a great proof of Christiantiy, in my opinion.  The constitution and the founders of our country all believed in the Christian way of life, and the ideals it taught us.   And coincidently, we've reaped incredible success: hard work, public education, compassion, self dependence, etc. the list goes on.  This is all straight from the Bible, and it works.  Compare this to Islam, which breeds a culture of backwardsness and impedes progress.

I think you need to read your history book. Our country was founded on "freedom of religion". The constitution does not define religion either. And it certainly does not define our religion as "Christian".

You should also be more respectful towards other religions. The bombers who blew up the building in OK were both devote Christians. And there are screwball mormons in S. Utah and N. AZ who call themselves christians as well. There are many many flawed groups that claim to be followers of Christ. Funny how you don't use them as examples? But then you will take a complete slam on Islam assuming the entire culture is defunct because of bad examples within that religion.

Your statement is flawed and hypocritical. Don't assume that one religion is the true way and slam others. And understand your history better. Your statement is why people do not like organized religion. And helps create a divide between our culture and others such as Islam.

There are plenty of hardworking people that are Buddhist, athiest, agnostic, Jewish, Islamic etc etc. Christianity isn't the only foundation for hard work. Do you really think that hard work ethic is just from the bible only?

Are you an intern for Hannity or what?  

John Adams wrote:

?The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.?

[Rockin' Rose]

The posts in this thread have given me a better view of christian religion and the fact of god, thanks guys.

SLC, I do have some believe in karma but can't really say that I know what karma really means, is it basicly like, there is a balance that you live in, for example you steal a jacket worth of 50 dollars, don't get caught then sometime later you get a fine of 50 dollars for something you did, is it something like this?

Hey Headless Horseman, great to know I'm not the only crazy on these boards

[SLCPUNK]

SLC, I do have some believe in karma but can't really say that I know what karma really means, is it basicly like, there is a balance that you live in, for example you steal a jacket worth of 50 dollars, don't get caught then sometime later you get a fine of 50 dollars for something you did, is it something like this?

I think that is on the right track. For example I've seen countless people who were selfish pricks. Just didn't care about anybody but themselves, and for them it was one shitty thing after another. Also we confuse "stuff" with happiness. You may see somebody that is a total jerk that is surrounded by material things and think "oh yea right..bad Karma ." but he may have thousands of dollars in credit debt. Or may have horrible personal relationships.

I grew up with a guy like this. Thinks the whole world owes him something. He won't pay child support because he hates his ex. So he can't really get a real job because it'll get taken out of his paycheck. So he lives in a shithole because of it. Has no credit really to buy anything. It's almost instant Karma. His selfishness leaves him living as a poor man, but he can't see it. If he decided to change and pay for his daugher, I'd bet all sorts of good things may happen. He would have a real job and be able to buy a home one day. Not to mention the personal aspect of it all. He blames his life on everybody else. "If it wasn' tfor that bitch, I'd be able to get a real job"....

But that guy is the creator of all his pain and suffering. I have never seen a person as selfish as that guy. He has bad things happen to him over and over. His life totally sucks. But to know the guy (and how selfish he is) your first thought would be, "Jeez, the guy deserves what he gets anyway".

I honestly believe that if he changed who he was that good things would come his way.

I've seen it the other way around too. I see people who work endlessly for others. Putting themselves first. And yes, life throws them tought things too. But they are more content and doors seem to open for those people more often. Things always seem to work themselves out.

That's how I live my life. I believe there is a God that created us, but allows us to create or own heaven or hell based on our actions, and more importantly intentions. I could do you a favor, but if my intention isn't true then it doesn't mean shit. If I help somebody I am not thinking "Oh now they owe me one." That is not honorable intention. To help another human being and expect nothing in return, that is honor and integrity.

[Jessica]

This is the closest of what i believe in. I could not describe it myself, therefore, i am using something some of you may already know :


THE GNOSTIC SOCIETY LIBRARY

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Thunder, Perfect Mind

Translated by George W. MacRae


I was sent forth from the power,
and I have come to those who reflect upon me, and I have been found among those who seek after me. Look upon me, you who reflect upon me,
and you hearers, hear me. You who are waiting for me, take me to yourselves. And do not banish me from your sight.
And do not make your voice hate me, nor your hearing.
Do not be ignorant of me anywhere or any time. Be on your guard! Do not be ignorant of me.

For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
and many are her sons. I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband. I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me. I am the mother of my father
and the sister of my husband and he is my offspring. I am the slave of him who prepared me.
I am the ruler of my offspring.
But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday. And he is my offspring in (due) time, and my power is from him. I am the staff of his power in his youth,
and he is the rod of my old age. And whatever he wills happens to me. I am the silence that is incomprehensible
and the idea whose remembrance is frequent. I am the voice whose sound is manifold
and the word whose appearance is multiple. I am the utterance of my name.

Why, you who hate me, do you love me,
and hate those who love me? You who deny me, confess me,
and you who confess me, deny me. You who tell the truth about me, lie about me,
and you who have lied about me, tell the truth about me. You who know me, be ignorant of me,
and those who have not known me, let them know me.

For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.
I am the one who is disgraced and the great one.

Give heed to my poverty and my wealth.
Do not be arrogant to me when I am cast out upon the earth,
and you will find me in those that are to come. And do not look upon me on the dung-heap
nor go and leave me cast out, and you will find me in the kingdoms. And do not look upon me when I am cast out among those who
are disgraced and in the least places, nor laugh at me. And do not cast me out among those who are slain in violence.
But I, I am compassionate and I am cruel.

Be on your guard!
Do not hate my obedience
and do not love my self-control. In my weakness, do not forsake me,
and do not be afraid of my power. For why do you despise my fear
and curse my pride? But I am she who exists in all fears
and strength in trembling. I am she who is weak,
and I am well in a pleasant place. I am senseless and I am wise.

Why have you hated me in your counsels?
For I shall be silent among those who are silent,
and I shall appear and speak, Why then have you hated me, you Greeks?
Because I am a barbarian among the barbarians? For I am the wisdom of the Greeks
and the knowledge of the barbarians. I am the judgement of the Greeks and of the barbarians.
I am the one whose image is great in Egypt
and the one who has no image among the barbarians. I am the one who has been hated everywhere
and who has been loved everywhere. I am the one whom they call Life,
and you have called Death. I am the one whom they call Law,
and you have called Lawlessness. I am the one whom you have pursued,
and I am the one whom you have seized. I am the one whom you have scattered,
and you have gathered me together. I am the one before whom you have been ashamed,
and you have been shameless to me. I am she who does not keep festival,
and I am she whose festivals are many. I, I am godless,
and I am the one whose God is great. I am the one whom you have reflected upon,
and you have scorned me. I am unlearned,
and they learn from me. I am the one that you have despised,
and you reflect upon me. I am the one whom you have hidden from,
and you appear to me. But whenever you hide yourselves,
I myself will appear. For whenever you appear,
I myself will hide from you. Those who have [...] to it [...] senselessly [...].

Take me [... understanding] from grief.
and take me to yourselves from understanding and grief. And take me to yourselves from places that are ugly and in ruin,
and rob from those which are good even though in ugliness. Out of shame, take me to yourselves shamelessly;
and out of shamelessness and shame, upbraid my members in yourselves. And come forward to me, you who know me
and you who know my members, and establish the great ones among the small first creatures. Come forward to childhood,
and do not despise it because it is small and it is little. And do not turn away greatnesses in some parts from the smallnesses,
for the smallnesses are known from the greatnesses.

Why do you curse me and honor me?
You have wounded and you have had mercy.
Do not separate me from the first ones whom you have known.
And do not cast anyone out nor turn anyone away
[...] turn you away and [... know] him not. [...]. What is mine [...]. I know the first ones and those after them know me.

But I am the mind of [...] and the rest of [...].
I am the knowledge of my inquiry,
and the finding of those who seek after me, and the command of those who ask of me, and the power of the powers in my knowledge of the angels, who have been sent at my word, and of gods in their seasons by my counsel, and of spirits of every man who exists with me, and of women who dwell within me. I am the one who is honored, and who is praised,
and who is despised scornfully. I am peace,
and war has come because of me. And I am an alien and a citizen.
I am the substance and the one who has no substance.

Those who are without association with me are ignorant of me,
and those who are in my substance are the ones who know me. Those who are close to me have been ignorant of me,
and those who are far away from me are the ones who have known me. On the day when I am close to you, you are far away from me,
and on the day when I am far away from you, I am close to you.

[I am ...] within.
[I am ...] of the natures.
I am [...] of the creation of the spirits.
[...] request of the souls.
I am control and the uncontrollable.
I am the union and the dissolution.
I am the abiding and I am the dissolution.
I am the one below,
and they come up to me. I am the judgment and the acquittal.
I, I am sinless,
and the root of sin derives from me. I am lust in (outward) appearance,
and interior self-control exists within me. I am the hearing which is attainable to everyone
and the speech which cannot be grasped. I am a mute who does not speak,
and great is my multitude of words.

Hear me in gentleness, and learn of me in roughness.
I am she who cries out,
and I am cast forth upon the face of the earth. I prepare the bread and my mind within.
I am the knowledge of my name.
I am the one who cries out,
and I listen. I appear and [...] walk in [...] seal of my [...].
I am [...] the defense [...].
I am the one who is called Truth
and iniquity [...].

You honor me [...] and you whisper against me.
You who are vanquished, judge them (who vanquish you)
before they give judgment against you, because the judge and partiality exist in you. If you are condemned by this one, who will acquit you?
Or, if you are acquitted by him, who will be able to detain you? For what is inside of you is what is outside of you,
and the one who fashions you on the outside is the one who shaped the inside of you. And what you see outside of you, you see inside of you; it is visible and it is your garment.

Hear me, you hearers
and learn of my words, you who know me. I am the hearing that is attainable to everything;
I am the speech that cannot be grasped. I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name. I am the sign of the letter
and the designation of the division. And I [...].
(3 lines missing)
[...] light [...].
[...] hearers [...] to you
[...] the great power.
And [...] will not move the name.
[...] to the one who created me.
And I will speak his name.

Look then at his words
and all the writings which have been completed. Give heed then, you hearers
and you also, the angels and those who have been sent, and you spirits who have arisen from the dead. For I am the one who alone exists,
and I have no one who will judge me.

For many are the pleasant forms which exist in numerous sins,
and incontinencies, and disgraceful passions, and fleeting pleasures, which (men) embrace until they become sober and go up to their resting place. And they will find me there,
and they will live, and they will not die again.

 

[GnRNightrain]

'Under God'
Michael Newdow is right. Atheists are outsiders in America.

BY SAMUEL P. HUNTINGTON
Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT

The battle over the Pledge of Allegiance has stimulated vigorous controversy on an issue central to America's identity. Opponents of "under God" (which was added to the pledge in 1954) argue that the United States is a secular country, that the First Amendment prohibits rhetorical or material state support for religion, and that people should be able to pledge allegiance to their country without implicitly also affirming a belief in God. Supporters point out that the phrase is perfectly consonant with the views of the framers of the Constitution, that Lincoln had used these words in the Gettysburg Address, and that the Supreme Court--which on Monday sidestepped a challenge to the Pledge of Allegiance--has long held that no one could be compelled to say the pledge.

The atheist who brought the court challenge, Michael Newdow, asked this question: "Why should I be made to feel like an outsider?" Earlier, the Court of Appeals in San Francisco had agreed that the words "under God" sent "a message to unbelievers that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community."

Although the Supreme Court did not address the question directly, Mr. Newdow got it right: Atheists are "outsiders" in the American community. Americans are one of the most religious people in the world, particularly compared with the peoples of other highly industrialized democracies. But they nonetheless tolerate and respect the rights of atheists and nonbelievers. Unbelievers do not have to recite the pledge, or engage in any religiously tainted practice of which they disapprove. They also, however, do not have the right to impose their atheism on all those Americans whose beliefs now and historically have defined America as a religious nation.





Statistics say America is not only a religious nation but also a Christian one. Up to 85% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Brian Cronin, who litigated against a cross on public land in Boise, Idaho, complained, "For Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and other non-Christians in Boise, the cross only drives home the point that they are strangers in a strange land." Like Mr. Newdow and the Ninth Circuit judges, Mr. Cronin was on target. America is a predominantly Christian nation with a secular government. Non-Christians may legitimately see themselves as strangers because they or their ancestors moved to this "strange land" founded and peopled by Christians--even as Christians become strangers by moving to Israel, India, Thailand or Morocco.
Americans have always been extremely religious and overwhelmingly Christian. The 17th-century settlers founded their communities in America in large part for religious reasons. Eighteenth-century Americans saw their Revolution in religious and largely biblical terms. The Revolution reflected their "covenant with God" and was a war between "God's elect" and the British "Antichrist." Jefferson, Paine and other deists and nonbelievers felt it necessary to invoke religion to justify the Revolution. The Declaration of Independence appealed to "Nature's God," the "Creator," "the Supreme Judge of the World," and "divine Providence" for approval, legitimacy and protection.

The Constitution includes no such references. Yet its framers firmly believed that the republican government they were creating could last only if it was rooted in morality and religion. "A Republic can only be supported by pure religion or austere morals," John Adams said. Washington agreed: "Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." Fifty years after the Constitution was adopted, Tocqueville reported that all Americans held religion "to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions."

The words "separation of church and state" do not appear in the Constitution, and some people cite the absence of religious language in the Constitution and the provisions of the First Amendment as evidence that America is fundamentally secular. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the end of the 18th century, religious establishments existed throughout Europe and in several American states. Control of the church was a key element of state power, and the established church, in turn, provided legitimacy to the state. The framers of the Constitution prohibited an established national church in order to limit the power of government and to protect and strengthen religion. The purpose of "separation of church and state," as William McLoughlin has said, was not to establish freedom from religion but to establish freedom for religion. As a result, Americans have been unique among peoples in the diversity of sects, denominations and religious movements to which they have given birth, almost all embodying some form of Protestantism. When substantial numbers of Catholic immigrants arrived, it was eventually possible to accept Catholicism as one more denomination within the broad framework of Christianity. The proportion of the population who were "religious adherents," that is church members, increased fairly steadily through most of American history.





Today, overwhelming majorities of Americans affirm religious beliefs. When asked in 2003 simply whether they believed in God or not, 92% said yes. In a series of 2002-03 polls, 57% to 65% of Americans said religion was very important in their lives, 23% to 27% said fairly important, and 12% to 18% said not very important. Large proportions of Americans also appear to be active in the practice of their religion. In 2002 and 2003, an average of 65% claimed membership in a church or synagogue. About 40% said they had attended church or synagogue in the previous seven days, and roughly 33% said they went to church at least once a week. In the same period, about 60% of Americans said they prayed one or more times a day, more than 20% once or more a week, about 10% less than once a week, and 10% never. Given human nature, these claims of religious practice may be overstated, but the extent to which Americans believe the right response is to affirm their religiosity is itself evidence for the centrality of religious norms in American society.
Only about 10% of Americans, however, espouse atheism, and most Americans do not approve of it. Although the willingness of Americans to vote for a presidential candidate from a minority group has increased dramatically--over 90% of those polled in 1999 said they would vote for a black, Jewish or female presidential candidate, while 59% were willing to vote for a homosexual--only 49% were willing to vote for an atheist. Americans seem to agree with the Founding Fathers that their republican government requires a religious base, and hence find it difficult to accept the explicit rejection of God.

These high levels of religiosity would be less significant if they were the norm for other countries. Americans differ dramatically, however, in their religiosity from the people of other economically developed countries. This religiosity is conclusively revealed in cross-national surveys. In general, the level of religious commitment of countries varies inversely with their level of economic development: People in poor countries are highly religious; those in rich countries are not. America is the glaring exception. One analysis found that if America were like most other countries at her level of economic development, only 5% of Americans would think religion very important, but in fact 51% do.

[GnRNightrain]

An International Social Survey Program questionnaire in 1991 asked people in 17 countries seven questions concerning their belief in God, life after death, heaven and other religious concepts. Reporting the results, George Bishop ranked the countries according to the percentage of their population that affirmed these religious beliefs. The U.S. was far ahead in its overall level of religiosity, ranking first on four questions, second on one, and third on two, for an average ranking of 1.7. According to this poll, Americans are more deeply religious than even the people of countries like Ireland and Poland, where religion has been the core of national identity differentiating them from their traditional British, German and Russian antagonists.

Along with their general religiosity, the Christianity of Americans has impressed foreign observers and been affirmed by Americans. "We are a Christian people," the Supreme Court declared in 1811. In the midst of the Civil War, Lincoln also described Americans as "a Christian people." In 1892 the Supreme Court again declared, "This is a Christian nation." In 1917 Congress passed legislation declaring a day of prayer in support of the war effort and invoking America's status as a Christian nation. In 1931 the Supreme Court reaffirmed its earlier view: "We are a Christian people, according to one another the equal right of religious freedom, and acknowledging with reverence the duty of obedience to the will of God."

While the balance between Protestants and Catholics shifted over the years, the proportion of Americans identifying themselves as Christian has remained relatively constant. In three surveys between 1989 and 1996, 84% to 88% of Americans said they were Christians. The proportion of Christians in America rivals or exceeds the proportion of Jews in Israel, of Muslims in Egypt, of Hindus in India, and of Orthodox believers in Russia.

America's Christian identity has, nonetheless, been questioned on two grounds. It is argued, first, that America is losing that identity because non-Christian religions are expanding in numbers, and Americans are thus becoming a multireligious and not simply a multidenominational people; second, that Americans are losing their religious identity and are becoming secular, atheistic, materialistic and indifferent to their religious heritage. Neither of these propositions comes close to the truth.





The argument that America is losing its Christian identity due to the spread of non-Christian religions was advanced by several scholars in the 1980s and '90s. They pointed to the growing numbers of Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus and Buddhists in American society. Hindus increased from 70,000 in 1977 to 800,000 in 1997. Muslims amounted to at least 3.5 million in 1997, while Buddhists numbered somewhere between 750,000 and two million. From these developments, the proponents of de-Christianization argue, in the words of Prof. Diana Eck, that "religious diversity" has "shattered the paradigm of America" as an overwhelmingly Christian country with a small Jewish minority.
The increases in the membership of some non-Christian religions have not, to put it mildly, had any significant effect on America's Christian identity. As a result of assimilation, low birth rates, and intermarriage, the proportion of Jews dropped from 4% in the 1920s to 3% in the '50s to slightly over 2% in 1997. If the absolute numbers claimed by their spokesmen are correct, by 1997 about 1.5% of Americans were Muslim, while Hindus and Buddhists were each less than 1%. The numbers of non-Christian, non-Jewish believers undoubtedly will continue to grow, but for years to come they will remain extremely small. Some increases in the membership of non-Christian religions come from conversions, but the largest share is from immigration and high birthrates. The immigrants of these religions, however, are far outnumbered by immigrants from Latin America, almost all of whom are Catholic and also have high birthrates. Latin American immigrants are also converting to evangelical Protestantism. In addition, Christians in Asia and the Middle East have been more likely than non-Christians to migrate to America. As of 1990, a majority of Asian-Americans were Christian rather than Buddhist or Hindu, and about two-thirds of Arab-Americans have been Christian rather than Muslim, although Arab Muslim immigrants have become much more numerous. While a precise judgment is impossible, at the start of the 21st century the U.S. was probably becoming more rather than less Christian in its religious composition.

Americans tend to have a certain catholicity toward religion: All deserve respect. Given this general tolerance of religious diversity, non-Christian faiths have little alternative but to recognize and accept America as a Christian society. "Americans have always thought of themselves as a Christian nation," argues Jewish neoconservative Irving Kristol, "equally tolerant of all religions so long as they were congruent with traditional Judeo-Christian morality. But equal toleration . . . never meant perfect equality of status in fact." Christianity is not legally established, "but it is established informally, nevertheless."





But if increases in non-Christian membership haven't diluted Christianity in America, hasn't it been supplanted over time by a culture that is pervasively irreligious, if not antireligious? These terms describe segments of American intellectual, academic and media elites, but not the bulk of the American people. American religiosity could be high by absolute measures and high relative to that of comparable societies, yet the secularization thesis would still be valid if the commitment of Americans to religion declined over time. Little or no evidence exists of such a decline. The one significant shift that does appear to have occurred is a drop in the 1960s and '70s in the religious commitment of Catholics. This shift, however, brought Catholic attitudes on religion more into congruence with those of Protestants.
Over the course of American history, fluctuations did occur in levels of American religious commitment and religious involvement. There has not, however, been an overall downward trend in American religiosity. At the start of the 21st century, Americans are no less committed, and are quite possibly more committed, to their religious beliefs and their Christian identity than at any time in their history.